A non-Muslim woman's view on hijab

the_new_mr

Salam to all!

Just reading on another forum there and I found the following post from a thread where someone is asking questions about hijab and I thought you guys might like to read it. It's the opinion of a non-Muslim woman on hijab. Thought it's pretty good and is similar to what I was saying before in another thread. Anyway, enough from me.

I have Muslim friends and they can wear it if they want too and not if they don't like it. But it is a religious obligation to wear it if you are religious. I think they are fine. I wore it too once out of solidarity when a Muslim girl was attacked at my University. It is very comfortable and in my view attractive, the point is there too. You know being judged on your personality not on your looks and being modest. So actualy there is lot of feminism out there in Islam. You don't get a job because you are a tall, blonde with big boobs, but if you are qualified. When a girl gets married she can according to Islam keep her family name and spends her earned money only on her and the man provides for the family. I like that woman our less under social pressure in Islam of having different relationships all the time, being used. They get married once and the partners grow so close that it is for life. It is not like lets have a baby first and than we will see...lol..
Those are some things I value as a feminist.

metrovelvet

Women from all cultures feel pressure to do what will please and allure the men within those cultures, whether it be a hijab or a boob job.

DinoBot

metrovelvet wrote:

Women from all cultures feel pressure to do what will please and allure the men within those cultures, whether it be a hijab or a boob job.

Thats a very good point and I think one that is always missed. At the end of the day its always said its the womans choice but there is such pressure from family and culture that I dont think choice comes into it.

You only see choice when the woman is no longer in a country where every woman wears it :rolleyes:

mickoneill30

Dunno. I've been to two predominantly muslim countries. I didn't take any numbers but the majority of women wear the hijab, the next major group seemed to wear no head scarf and the minority were the ones that just show their eyes.

wes

metrovelvet wrote:

Women from all cultures feel pressure to do what will please and allure the men within those cultures, whether it be a hijab or a boob job.

At least with the Hijab, they can get rid of it, without major surgery.

DinoBot

wes wrote:

At least with the Hijab, they can get rid of it, without major surgery.

Yeah, but the reason is the same, acceptance.

All people are the same, they want the same things out of life its just expressed different from culture to culture.

kmick

Original Poster wrote:

I have Muslim friends and they can wear it if they want too and not if they don't like it. But it is a religious obligation to wear it if you are religious. I think they are fine. I wore it too once out of solidarity when a Muslim girl was attacked at my University. It is very comfortable and in my view attractive, the point is there too. You know being judged on your personality not on your looks and being modest. So actualy there is lot of feminism out there in Islam. You don't get a job because you are a tall, blonde with big boobs, but if you are qualified. When a girl gets married she can according to Islam keep her family name and spends her earned money only on her and the man provides for the family. I like that woman our less under social pressure in Islam of having different relationships all the time, being used. They get married once and the partners grow so close that it is for life. It is not like lets have a baby first and than we will see...lol..
Those are some things I value as a feminist.

This is so wrong on so many levels I don’t even know where to start. Is this what passes as intelligent commentary these days.

First of all the way it is written and the spelling is atrocious. Now this is a minor point but if a person wants to be taken seriously at a minimum they need to use a spell checker.

Original Poster wrote:

You know being judged on your personality not on your looks and being modest.

Just because you have a scarf on your head will not affect how people will see you. The kind of person who judges you by the way you look is that kind of person regardless. And this point about a scarf being modest. Can anyone explain this to me. It covers your hair. What is immodest about hair?

Original Poster wrote:

You don't get a job because you are a tall, blonde with big boobs, but if you are qualified.

The only place you get a job on the basis of big boobs and blonde hair is page 3 on the sun. I have never ever worked with someone who was under qualified but had gotten the jobs on their looks. It just does not happen in professional working environments.

Original Poster wrote:

It is not like lets have a baby first and than we will see...lol..

People have been having babies since time began - since surprise surprise, before religion, before cogent thought, before language even. Some people have babies for the wrong reason - e.g. they may hope it will stabilise a rocky relationship. However most people who put even 5 seconds of thought into having children take their responsibility seriously. What this has to do with wearing a Hijab is beyond me.

If we are going to discuss issues like the Hijab can we promote intelligent thought rather than this kind of mindless nonsense.

Schuhart

kmick wrote:

First of all the way it is written and the spelling is atrocious. Now this is a minor point but if a person wants to be taken seriously at a minimum they need to use a spell checker.

I think you are making a sound case with passion, and I agree with your conclusion. But you lose it with this comment. If you are interested in hearing someones views you'll let such minor things pass without comment.

kmick

Schuhart wrote:

I think you are making a sound case with passion, and I agree with your conclusion. But you lose it with this comment. If you are interested in hearing someones views you'll let such minor things pass without comment.

You and I may be interested in hearing peoples views regardless. But many people will disregard badly written, poorly spelled writing. For you and I it may be minor but the point I am making is that people will use any excuse they can to tear you down. Do not give them that excuse. Its like turning up for an interview in shorts and no t-shirt and then demanding the interviewer gives you a fair hearing. They may go through the motions but you wont get the job.

PoleStar

I always find it ironic that people refer to the "feminism" in Islam i.e. the hijab protects females from being judged on their looks.

This is irony at its best as I see it. The hijab is there to protect women from being judged by looks alone? Or is it that the hijab protects MEN from having to control themselves and not judge a woman by her looks.

metrovelvet

wes wrote:

At least with the Hijab, they can get rid of it, without major surgery.

Yes, if they have the choice and that is the issue.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote:

................They get married once and the partners grow so close that it is for life.

.... and they all live happily ever after :rolleyes:

I think the title of the thread should be changed to:

"A childs view of the hijab, as seen through rose tinted glassess"

InFront

That's very unfair, I thought it was a good point.

I have to say that if girls find the criticism of their choice to observe hijab a little patronising, and indeed ironic, I think I can see why. My mother and my sister observe hijab, and they wouldn't be what you'd call uneducated. I don't see why it bothers some people.

How is telling a woman 'you should not wear that' or making assumtions about a woman because of her choice to do so 'feminist'??

kmick you don't really explain your problem with hijab. On the other thread you called it 'stone age'. From a Muslim point of view, the treatment and objectification of women in western liberal standards can also be perceived as 'stone age', it's something that often happened before Islam was brought to an area.
If I had a daughter I think I would be worried about how young girls in particular can be expected to behave (sometimes) here in Dublin.
The best attitude towards women in any society, be it a Muslim or a Western society (or both) is simply to respect them.

Stark

kmick wrote:

Its like turning up for an interview in shorts and no t-shirt and then demanding the interviewer gives you a fair hearing. They may go through the motions but you wont get the job.

I'd give them the job if they were hot

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

kmick you don't really explain your problem with hijab.

In fairness, what I took out of kmick’s post was the conclusion

If we are going to discuss issues like the Hijab can we promote intelligent thought rather than this kind of mindless nonsense.

I took that to be a comment that recognises that there are any amount of reasonable points that can be made in defence of the practice – including your point to the effect that women can surely decide what they think for themselves without needing our advice.

The quoted opinion can be easily picked apart as superficial. For example, the author says one of the things she likes about the Hijab is she thinks it’s attractive – hardly a coherent opinion from someone trying to argue that the benefit is not being judged on your looks. Also, the line

When a girl gets married she can according to Islam keep her family name and spends her earned money only on her and the man provides for the family.

simply does not add up from someone claiming to be a feminist. I can see that a person committed to tradition wife-and-mother gender roles lauding the idea that wives are absolved of all financial responsibilities. A feminist, truly, would regard the institutionalisation of gender roles implicit in this concept as anathema.

I note this quote came from another discussion board. As we know, we’re anonymous here. For all you know I could have horns and a tail. I suspect the author of the material quoted by the OP is not actually a non-Muslim woman, and is certainly not a feminist. The mindset expressed sounds like it comes from someone with a different mindset.

On the core issue, I’d take your view that ultimately women can and will do what they want is a given. What might be intelligently discussed is what doctrine suggests the Hijab is supposed to symbolise (which might or might not relate to why women choose to wear it) and whether the ideas contained in that doctrine have any validity. Taking a point from above, if the doctrine is that this has to do with modesty, it is reasonable to ask what’s so frighteningly immodest about hair.

HelterSkelter

kmick wrote:

You and I may be interested in hearing peoples views regardless. But many people will disregard badly written, poorly spelled writing. For you and I it may be minor but the point I am making is that people will use any excuse they can to tear you down. Do not give them that excuse. Its like turning up for an interview in shorts and no t-shirt and then demanding the interviewer gives you a fair hearing. They may go through the motions but you wont get the job.

The person could have a learning disability such as dyslexia and have problems spelling. Does that mean their opinion should be disregarded? If a person with a stutter was speaking to you would you disregard their opinion in the same manner?

Hobbes

kmick wrote:

First of all the way it is written and the spelling is atrocious. Now this is a minor point but if a person wants to be taken seriously at a minimum they need to use a spell checker.

This isn't the Spell Czechs forum and there will less of attacking peoples writing styles. Thanks.

kmick

InFront wrote:

kmick you don't really explain your problem with hijab. On the other thread you called it 'stone age'.

I think you missed my point. My observation was that the original posters claim that there were some interesting points in the post was in my humble opinion untrue. The article was puerile and childish. I have no particular issue with Hijab. I just think if we are going to have a discussion about it lets try and keep it intelligent. Can you show me my post where I called the Hijab stoneage? I think my actual quote was

"Most Islamic thinking on things seems to be stone age from a western liberal point of view. Women within Islam generally seem content however so lets leave them to it."

kmick

HelterSkelter wrote:

The person could have a learning disability such as dyslexia and have problems spelling. Does that mean their opinion should be disregarded? If a person with a stutter was speaking to you would you disregard their opinion in the same manner?

I did not say their opinion should be disregarded. I said some people would disregard it. I actually took the time to reply to a number of the points made if you did not notice.

Karl Hungus

I would agree with kmick that whoever wrote what The New Mr. is quoting sounds very childish and naive. I mean, just read this:

You know being judged on your personality not on your looks and being modest.

People will judge you based on your looks if you wear a hijab, but because the garment is all they can see, it's that which they will judge you on. To believe otherwise is wishfull thinking at best, and sheer stupidity at worst.

People will see a person in a Hijab and judge them to be "Oppressed" or a "Religious Zealot" or many other things that aren't particularly favourable. You'd be objectified as a good little muslim by some, or something to fear by others. The sad fact of the matter is that you wouldn't be judged on your personality, because I'd imagine there's a lot of people who wouldn't even speak to someone in a hijab.

the_new_mr

metovelvet wrote:

Women from all cultures feel pressure to do what will please and allure the men within those cultures, whether it be a hijab or a boob job.

DinoBot wrote:

Thats a very good point and I think one that is always missed. At the end of the day its always said its the womans choice but there is such pressure from family and culture that I dont think choice comes into it.

You only see choice when the woman is no longer in a country where every woman wears it :rolleyes:
...

Yeah, but the reason is the same, acceptance.

All people are the same, they want the same things out of life its just expressed different from culture to culture.

If I may be so lazy as to quote myself from another thread.

the_new_mr wrote:

although the Quran is clear on the fact that hijab is a religious obligation, women are usually left to decide for themselves. If a woman decides to wear it because of social pressures then she is not wearing it to please God and there are likely woman who are doing this but this is completely against the spirit of Islam. One meaning of Islam is submission to God. Wearing hijab for anyone or anything other than for God goes against this very idea.

The idea that most women wear the hijab because they want to be socially accepted is very weak and is going as far as to question their intention (which is very wrong). And just for the record, I personally don't know of any cases of women who took off their hijab upon arriving in a non-Muslim country. And although I'm sure these cases exist, I'm sure they are few or I would have heard about it.

I noticed that a lot of people confused the quote I made with being my own text. Perhaps a little more concentration wouldn't go amiss?

kmick wrote:

I have never ever worked with someone who was under qualified but had gotten the jobs on their looks. It just does not happen in professional working environment.

It seems to me that, with respect, you are living in a dream world. All you have to do is visit a non-Muslim feminist website and you'll see most of them encouraging women to wear casual clothes that cover up their body and not wear much makeup etc etc. There are plenty of cases where a woman who did this later got the sack. And what about cases where there are two women with equal qualifications? You know it's happened where the more attractive woman has got the job.

InFront wrote:

How is telling a woman 'you should not wear that' or making assumtions about a woman because of her choice to do so 'feminist'??

Very good point there. After all, isn't feminism about women's choice? And isn't it also ironic that most of the people here criticising the hijab are men?

Schuhart wrote:

For all you know I could have horns and a tail.

Yes, and I suspect you do

Schuhart wrote:

I suspect the author of the material quoted by the OP is not actually a non-Muslim woman, and is certainly not a feminist.

Leave your conspiracy theories at the door. If you must assume this then at least discuss the points being made and keep in mind that they are the opinions of literally millions of Muslim women and use that as a base for discussion if anonymous text don't please you.

More laziness ahead now as I quote myself from another thread once again.

the_new_mr wrote:

My friend told me about a woman he knew who converted to Islam. He saw her again within two weeks of when she converted and she was wearing hijab. My friend was little surprised and a bit curious as he said that it usually takes a little while before a convert gets used to the idea of hijab. The woman replied that she felt more free than before by wearing the hijab. She went on to explain that it's like having a remote control in her hand so she could decide what other people see of her. So she could say "This is a man I don't know, I'll only show him my face and hands. This is a close relative, I can show him my hair. This is my husband, I'll show him whatever I want."

Karl Hungus wrote:

People will judge you based on your looks if you wear a hijab, but because the garment is all they can see, it's that which they will judge you on.

This is a valid point on its own but I think you're missing the point that the person was trying to make. It seems to me that she was implying that you're not judged on your level of attractiveness. The fact that some people may judge someone because they're wearing hijab (and this is even something that happens in Muslim countries as well by the way) is something they should take care of on a personal level and is similar in some way to people judging others by the slogan on someone's t-shirt.

Karl Hungus wrote:

To believe otherwise is wishfull thinking at best, and sheer stupidity at worst.

Don't judge a book by its cover and didn't Jesus (peace be upon him) say "Judge not lest you be judged."?

Karl Hungus wrote:

The sad fact of the matter is that you wouldn't be judged on your personality, because I'd imagine there's a lot of people who wouldn't even speak to someone in a hijab.

Yes, this is a sad fact but one that can hopefully be overcome through discussion and general dialog.

the_new_mr

I'd posted this poem before on here but I thought it's quite suitable for the current discussion.

Object of Despair
by Fahim Firfiray (Abu Omar)

Emma is a lawyer
And so is Aisha too
Colleagues going into court
At circa half past two

Its 1 O'clock right now
They grab a bite before the trial
They chat about this and that
Conversing with a smile

Aisha is in full hijab
With a loose all over suit
Emma's in her business wear
With accessories taboot

Emma's really quite bemused
At Aisha's godly ways
She looks Aisha in the eyes
And very firmly says

You're a smart girl Aisha
Why do you wear that across your hair?
Subjugated by "man"-kind
An object of despair

Take it off my sister
Let your banner be unfurled
Don't blindly follow all around
DECLARE YOUR FREEDOM TO THE WORLD

Aisha is amazed
But not the least bit shy
She bravely puts her milk shake down
And gives Emma the reply

My dear sister Emma,
Why do you dress the way you do?
The skirt you're wearing round your waist,
Is it really you?

Now that we've sat down,
I see you tug it across your thighs,
Do you feel ashamed?
Aware of prying eyes?

I see the way you're sitting,
Both legs joined at the knees,
Who forces you to sit like that?
Do you feel at ease?

I'll tell you who obliges you,
To dress the way you do,
Gucci, Klein and St. Laurent,
All have designs on you!

In the main, it's men my friend,
Who dictate the whims of fashion,
Generating all the garb,
To incite the basest passion

"Sex Sells" there is no doubt,
But who buys with such great haste,
The answer is the likes of you,
Because they want to be embraced......

They want to be accepted,
On a level playing field
Sure, with brain and intellect
But with body parts revealed

Intelligence and reason
Are useful by and by
But if you want to make a mark
Stay appealing to the eye

You claim your skirt is office like
A business dress of sorts
Would we not laugh at Tony Blair
If he turned up in shorts?

His could be the poshest pants
Pinstripe from Saville Rowe
But walking round like that my friend
He'd really have to go

Why do you douse yourself with creams
To make your skin so milky?
Why do rip off all your hair
To keep your body silky?

A simple shower's all you need
To stay respectable and clean
The time and money that you spend
Is really quite obscene

Why do you wake up at dawn,
To apply a firm foundation,
Topped with make up and the like,
In one chaotic combination?

And if you should have to leave the house
Devoid of this routine
Why do you feel so insecure
That you should not be seen?

Be free my sister Emma
Escape from your deep mire
Don hijab today my friend
And all Islam's attire

Avoid all those sickly stares
Or whistles from afar
Walk down the street with dignity
Take pride in who you are

Strength lies in anonymity
Be a shadow in the crowd
Until you speak and interact
When your voice will carry loud

You're a smart girl Emma
Wear this across your hair
Don't be subjugated by "man"-kind
An object of despair

To use your very words my friend
Let your banner be unfurled
Don't blindly follow all around
DECLARE YOUR FREEDOM TO THE WORLD

Karl Hungus

the_new_mr wrote:

This is a valid point on its own but I think you're missing the point that the person was trying to make. It seems to me that she was implying that you're not judged on your level of attractiveness. The fact that some people may judge someone because they're wearing hijab (and this is even something that happens in Muslim countries as well by the way) is something they should take care of on a personal level and is similar in some way to people judging others by the slogan on someone's t-shirt.

"Not being judged on your level of attractiveness" is an extremely loaded statement though.

There is a huge difference between someone who would choose to judge a woman on her personality, and someone who must judge a woman on her personality because any alternative is denied to them. The second example could be equally as shallow and judgemental as anyone else, just simply having the freedom to judge denied.

metrovelvet

InFront wrote:

How is telling a woman 'you should not wear that' or making assumtions about a woman because of her choice to do so 'feminist'??

If I had a daughter I think I would be worried about how young girls in particular can be expected to behave (sometimes) here in Dublin.
.

There are strands of feminism which can be as puritanical as Christian fundamentalism or Islam.

There was a radical feminist professor in my college who told the women in her political theory class that wearing a skirt was practising internalised oppression.

The fact is women are judged by their looks. A woman who does not wear a hijab will get judged by those in her culture. A woman who wears a thong and has her ass hanging out of her jeans will also receive a judgement.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

And isn't it also ironic that most of the people here criticising the hijab are men?

Its ironic that most of the discussion here on both sides seems to be between men. As I’ve said, I don’t see a point on focussing on an individuals decision. It’s the validity of the doctrine that I’m more interested in.

the_new_mr wrote:

Leave your conspiracy theories at the door.

I think its quite clear that the identity of the author is questionable, and the person may not even be a woman.

the_new_mr wrote:

If you must assume this then at least discuss the points being made and keep in mind that they are the opinions of literally millions of Muslim women and use that as a base for discussion if anonymous text don't please you.

In honesty, I don’t know them to be the views of millions of Muslim women. Maybe they are – but I simply don’t know and I’d query what you are basing this on. But I’ll accept the quote in the original post on the basis of it being what you guess a woman might say if she wished to participate in discussion. I’ll also take it that, by raising it, you are inviting my view. Hence, bearing in mind InFront’s sensible comment to the effect that ultimately women don’t need our advice, I’m taking this to be a situation where I’m being asked to express an opinion on what I think of that quote.

I firstly think the view is just confused, as while pretending that adoption of the Hijab is about being modest, the author says she thinks its looks attractive as if this is a reason for wearing it.

The author seems to set a high value on traditional family roles of wife/homemaker husband/provider. That’s a fine ethic, and generations of humans have happily and successfully fulfilled those roles. Someone might well coherently argue for a continuation of traditional gender roles. That’s a wide debate, and clearly not what we are engaged in specifically here. But I think the important point is such an argument is not feminism.

By all means, wear a Hijab to express commitment to the idea that women have a very different role in life to men that, ultimately, involves submission to a husband. Indeed, in a book I read recently about the psychology of religion, a reason frequently given for the attraction of Islam by American women converts was the value placed on the homemaker role. But let’s not be confused about what we are saying here by pretending this is feminism.

Just anticipating a potential wrong turning, at the risk of flogging the point to death, bear in mind that promotion of gender equality is not just about granting women rights. It’s also about men and women sharing responsibilities previously regarded as the preserve of one or other gender. Hence, absolving one or other party to a marriage of a specific responsibility might well be justified from the perspective of someone wanting to promote traditional values, and good luck to them. But its just plain wrong to describe this as promotion of gender equality.

The attitude expressed about sex in the quote seems adolescent. Again, sexual continence is a fine ethic for people who wish to practice it. However, I felt the sentiment expressed had more to do with fear and ignorance than a positive assertion of a value.

the_new_mr wrote:

I'd posted this poem before on here but I thought it's quite suitable for the current discussion.

I think I’ve said it before, and I’ll certainly say it again. The poem sets up a straw man. Even taking it superficially, women don’t typically wear shorts skirts in the workplace in my experience. Women uninterested in personal appearance just dress blandly and get on with their lives.

metrovelvet

Actually, modern feminism acknowledges the value in a woman adopting the traditional role also, but again as long as it is her CHOICE.

kmick

the_new_mr wrote:

All you have to do is visit a non-Muslim feminist website and you'll see most of them encouraging women to wear casual clothes that cover up their body and not wear much makeup etc etc. There are plenty of cases where a woman who did this later got the sack.

I would like a concrete example rather than the kind of fly by night, my friend told me or I heard through a great aunt kind of evidence. This is what I am pointing out consistently - that your level of argument is very basic (with the greatest respect).

the_new_mr wrote:

And what about cases where there are two women with equal qualifications? You know it's happened where the more attractive woman has got the job.

To be honest if two people have exactly the same qualifications then the person who is better looking has an advantage. That is the way of the world. Don't know what the Quoran says about beauty but in the rest of the world beauty is admired not frowned upon.

Schuhart

metrovelvet wrote:

Actually, modern feminism acknowledges the value in a woman adopting the traditional role also, but again as long as it is her CHOICE.

You are making a fair point, and a necessary clarification.

Would it be fair to say that the choice element means that the traditional role is not assumed to automatically belong to the mother. There's an openess to the possibility of a couple deciding that their circumstances mean the husband is better placed to stay in the home, or that they each take a turn in home for a sustained period.

The ethic expressed in the quote in the OP would suggest that the husband is being remiss in such a situation and the wife is taking on a responsibility that she should be insulated from. As you say, fine if someone chooses that outlook. But not exactly a guideline for society.

metrovelvet wrote:

To be honest if two people have exactly the same qualifications then the person who is better looking has an advantage.

Indeed and, while acknowledging the Pastafarian belief that God gave fashion to women and some guys who know the difference between teal and fuchsia, the matter of looking the part is something that, to a greater or lesser extent, everyone has to deal with.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote:

The idea that most women wear the hijab because they want to be socially accepted is very weak and is going as far as to question their intention (which is very wrong).

Well I was at mosque today and I saw 4yr and 6yr old girls wearing hijab. I dont see choice there. Are they being modest inorder to get a job ? Maybe they have decided to

"Don't blindly follow all around
DECLARE YOUR FREEDOM TO THE WORLD "

I cant see how when they grow up they will have any choice over it !!

metrovelvet

I do see little girls in NYC wearing them and think its a little bizarre. At the same time Ive also been in the manicurists in NYC and have had a 6 year old girl sitting next to me. Perhaps this is a globalisation of pushing girls to grow up faster?

Oh and I never said this:

Originally Posted by metrovelvet
To be honest if two people have exactly the same qualifications then the person who is better looking has an advantage.

the_new_mr

Karl Hungus wrote:

...and someone who must judge a woman on her personality because any alternative is denied to them

That's the idea

Karl Hungus wrote:

The second example could be equally as shallow and judgemental as anyone else, just simply having the freedom to judge denied.

They will still have to make some kind of judgment. The difference is that the factors are different.

metrovelvet wrote:

There was a radical feminist professor in my college who told the women in her political theory class that wearing a skirt was practising internalised oppression.

Agree with that. Yvonne Ridley made the point saying that she was always taught that the shorter a woman's skirts was, the more independent she was. She says that she has now turned that opinion on its head.

Schuhart wrote:

As I’ve said, I don’t see a point on focussing on an individuals decision. It’s the validity of the doctrine that I’m more interested in

So, you're planning to single-handedly prove Islam wrong are you? Illusions of grandeur here perhaps? And, may I ask, who are you to say so? I don't mean this to sound offensive but don't you think that this is arrogant?

Schuhart wrote:

I think its quite clear that the identity of the author is questionable, and the person may not even be a woman.

Possibly. But then, how do I know you don't have horns and a tail? As I said anyway, the identity of the person who wrote that text isn't important.

Schuhart wrote:

In honesty, I don’t know them to be the views of millions of Muslim women.

Well, you'll have to take my word for it on that one. Alternatively, you could always go and read the views of some Muslim women on the net and see how they defend it even more passionately than I do.

Schuart wrote:

I’ll also take it that, by raising it, you are inviting my view.

Well, to be honest, I didn't think that me posting that text would get much response. I just posted it here mainly because I thought the Muslims here might find it interesting to read and as food for thought and pretty much nothing else. Still, if it's started a discussion (and since this is a discussion board) then why not?

Schuhart wrote:

But I think the important point is such an argument is not feminism.

Well, first you must define what feminism is. I'll come to that a little later on.

Schuhart wrote:

By all means, wear a Hijab to express commitment to the idea that women have a very different role in life to men that, ultimately, involves submission to a husband.

You still insist on rewording it? That's not why women wear it and you know it.

Schuhart wrote:

Indeed, in a book I read recently about the psychology of religion, a reason frequently given for the attraction of Islam by American women converts was the value placed on the homemaker role.

No doubt. I have a theory (or is it hypothesis?). The reason the feminist movement started in the first place was because women wanted to be equal with men, right? That's completely fair and is their right but what really caused the commotion in the first place was that women who stayed at home as homemakers were seen as doing the 'lesser' job. Indeed, until today, this problem is still existent.

Just the other week I was watching "According to Jim". Funny show. Anyway, in that show, Jim made out that he was the more important one in the family when it came to making financial decisions because he was the one making the money which was to great offense to his wife. She said that even though she had wanted to do stay at home, she didn't like the fact that she wasn't being appreciated. She then went on to start selling all her stuff which included Jim's favourite chair (apparently it was her's and she brought it in with her when they bought the house together). In the end, Jim acknowledged that her role in the family was just as important and he said that he was so sorry... then the show ended giving you a warm and fuzzy feeling inside as is always the case with shows like that

Anyway, the point to all this waffling is that this is a typical situation. Whereas in Islam, although a woman may work if she wants to, her position in the household is far more respected as it should be. An often used Arabic phrase for the woman of the house is "Queen of the palace". The man of the house doesn't usually have the same phrase associated to him.

Schuhart wrote:

bear in mind that promotion of gender equality is not just about granting women rights. It’s also about men and women sharing responsibilities previously regarded as the preserve of one or other gender.

I think this is as a result of women having their roles undermined in the past and we are now seeing the backlash.

Schuhart wrote:

But its just plain wrong to describe this as promotion of gender equality.

Let's say gender equity then.

metrovelvet wrote:

Actually, modern feminism acknowledges the value in a woman adopting the traditional role also, but again as long as it is her CHOICE.

Most definitely.

kmick wrote:

I would like a concrete example rather than the kind of fly by night, my friend told me or I heard through a great aunt kind of evidence. This is what I am pointing out consistently - that your level of argument is very basic (with the greatest respect).

Did a quick google. How about this post from a feminist blog?

Who benefits?

Or this article? Or this post on a blog? Unfortunately, that last one is from a man but the ideas are very valid.

kmick wrote:

That is the way of the world.

What a morbid and unfair attitude. Survival of the fittest is it? Let the beautiful people win because they look more pleasing the eye?

kmick wrote:

Don't know what the Quoran says about beauty but in the rest of the world beauty is admired not frowned upon.

A well known saying from a well known authentic hadith of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) is "God is beautiful and He loves beauty." Just because a woman is beautiful doesn't mean she has to show it to everyone. One often used analogy is that Islam views a woman like a pearl. Precious and to be protected.

DinoBot wrote:

Well I was at mosque today and I saw 4yr and 6yr old girls wearing hijab. I dont see choice there. Are they being modest inorder to get a job ? Maybe they have decided to

"Don't blindly follow all around
DECLARE YOUR FREEDOM TO THE WORLD "

I cant see how when they grow up they will have any choice over it !!

Girls are not supposed to wear it until they reach the age of puberty and that's that. Anyone who forces their girls to do so at a younger age is asking something of them that they are not required to do.

And don't you think it's insulting to the intelligence of women to say that they don't have a choice?

And what were you doing in the mosque anyway DinoBot?