Northern Elections

K-9

Going by the projected results seems to be roughly similar to the outgoing results. DUP played on the chance that SF might have 1st minister and so did SF to the detriment of SDLP and UUP.

The most interesting thing seems to be the chance that there could be 5 Unionist and Nationalist Ministers in Govt., if the SDLP finish ahead of the UUP as against 6/4 if the UUP finish ahead of the SDLP. Is it a case of DUP scaremongering and there hatred of the UUP backfiring ?

Zebra3

Is the Shankill in the west Belfast constituency?

According to today's Indo it looks like SF will pick up five seats there and the SDLP the other one.

stovelid

It looks like - it says here - that it's the DUP that will lose a seat to the SDLP in West Belfast.

I'm hopeful that the collapse of Mcartney in his various constituencies means that a portion of the DUP electorate must advocate power sharing.

Zebra3 wrote:

Is the Shankill in the west Belfast constituency?

According to today's Indo it looks like SF will pick up five seats there and the SDLP the other one.

Zambia

Zebra3 wrote:

Is the Shankill in the west Belfast constituency?

Yes it is and yes they did

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2007/nielection/html/45.stm

ninebeanrows

Old Tribal Rules live on....

Its sad really..

I think Paisely is going to ruin it all ...

Ah well is only the people of Northern Ireland's fault, its there mess, maybe one day they'll grow the balls to shift from ancient divisions..

stovelid

Was pleased to see the PUP hold on to David Ervine's old seat although I know little personally about Dawn Purvis.

Zambia

Weathercheck wrote:

Old Tribal Rules live on....

Its sad really..

I think Paisely is going to ruin it all ...

Ah well is only the people of Northern Ireland's fault, its there mess, maybe one day they'll grow the balls to shift from ancient divisions..

And maybe one day yours wont reside on either side of your ears , but like everything this takes time. Your definition of Ancient is way off, and your sweeping statement badly thought out.

As for Dawn Purvis Shes no David Ervine. He seemed a very straight talking bloke that had support from both sides of the divide.

stovelid

She wouldn't have the tache for a start

I just meant it's better that the PUP/UVF will be able to still be part of the assembly if it restarts.

Zambia232 wrote:

As for Dawn Purvis Shes no David Ervine.

mike65

I'm slightly surprised this thread is so quiet. Maybe thats a good thing. NI politics is now boring. Official

Mike.

marco murphy

mike65 wrote:

I'm slightly surprised this thread is so quiet. Maybe thats a good thing. NI politics is now boring. Official

Mike.

The outcome was as expected apart from the fact that the facist candidate was arrested.

Villain

From RTE.ie:

The DUP will have four positions and Sinn Féin three, leaving three jobs to be divided between the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists.

The positions are shared out on the basis of Assembly seats won and the Ulster Unionists have more seats than the SDLP.

The unionist bloc - four DUP ministers and two from the UUP - compares to Sinn Féin's three and the SDLP one, a total of four.

With all 108 seats declared, the DUP have 36 members elected, and Sinn Féin 28.

The Ulster Unionists have 18 MLAs, and the SDLP has 16 MLAs.

The Alliance Party has seven seats, with Hong Kong born Anna Lo making history by becoming the first person from an ethnic minority background to win a seat.

The loyalist Progressive Unionists are also celebrating a victory for their leader, Dawn Purvis, who held on to the late David Ervine's East Belfast seat.

Brian Wilson in North Down has meanwhile become the Green Party's first candidate to be elected to the Assembly. Independent Dr Kieran Deeny retained his seat in West Tyrone.

Sinn Fein's decision to support policing has been strongly supported by an increase in seats and the DUP have also made increases. The people have spoken and now it is time the DUP came to the same table as Sinn Fein and the other parties and entered power sharing.

People will slate Sinn Fein on here every day but no matter what people say the people who live in Northern Ireland and deal with the issues affecting their communities on a day to day basis have endorsed their mandate and supported them and we have to accept that.

We have come a long way in the last 5 years and hopefully Ian Paisley will say "YES" for once and we can take the last step in this process.

gandalf

Zambia232 wrote:

And maybe one day yours wont reside on either side of your ears , but like everything this takes time. Your definition of Ancient is way off, and your sweeping statement badly thought out.

Banned for 2 weeks, if you are incapable of arguing your point without resorting to personal insults then please do not post in Politics in future.

K-9

I see UUP had 0.3% less votes than the SDLP overall throughout Northern Ireland but have 2 less MLS'a and will have one less minister if the Assembly does happen. Sounds a bit like the Bush V. Gore election result!

It's a shame that a party that laid the groundwork for the assembly and cross border institutions has suffered electorally. It's going to be interesting to see if as little progress is made on negotiations in the next few years as in the last few years will SF and the DUP suffer electorally, or actually gain like they did this time. Hopefully it won't come to that but it's time for both the main parties to take the responsibility and leadership that goes with their mandates. Both parties where very quick to say their mandates should be respected in the past when they where the smaller parties. It's time they listened and enacted their mandates now.

Dontico

why cant people just vote for SDLP and AP? that would be a lovely coalition. i should go up there and suggest the idea.

marco murphy

People will slate Sinn Fein on here every day but no matter what people say the people who live in Northern Ireland and deal with the issues affecting their communities on a day to day basis have endorsed their mandate and supported them and we have to accept that.

Lets just hope all of the concessions made by Sinn Fein are worth it.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

People will slate Sinn Fein on here every day but no matter what people say the people who live in Northern Ireland and deal with the issues affecting their communities on a day to day basis have endorsed their mandate and supported them and we have to accept that.

Actually roughly 70% of the people have not supported them and thats roughly equal to the same number that originally supported the GFA.
An un ignorable statistic that.

People don't slate SF as such on here by the way, they ask legitimate questions of Sinn Féin,the answers to which as I see them are mostly dodged.
Little wonder that rightly creates a problem.

Villain

70% of what people, the entire population or the entire electorate or 70% of Nationalists? Rock Climber. Actually I'd be interested to see those figures, a link would be nice.

The fact is Sinn Fein are the second largest party in Northern Ireland and the largest Nationalist party in Northern Ireland and that is a result of democratic elections. So you can ask all the legitimate questions you like the FACT is the people who live up North and deal with the issues people down South talk about have voted for Sinn Fein, they have endorsed their mandate, so you call ask all the questions you like but if you have any respect for democracy you have to respect the people of Northern Ireland's decision and respect the mandate of Sinn Fein. You don't have to agree with you don't even have to like it but you have to accept it.

On a side note I see the Labour party are complaining aout RTE allowing Adams to take part in pre election debates down south even though he's not running down here, fear is an awful thing

Rock Climber

Irish1 wrote:

but if you have any respect for democracy you have to respect the people of Northern Ireland's decision and respect the mandate of Sinn Fein. You don't have to agree with you don't even have to like it but you have to accept it.

It is an undeniable fact that more than 70% of a high turn out in NI voted for parties that did not support terrorism.
Thats an equivalent number to the oft quoted support for the GFA in the NI referendum on that.
So why are the views of that 70% on policing to be ignored? in favour of the minority view ?
Michelle Gildernew thinks they should be ignored anyhow-her buddies with the guns are more important-even now in 2007.
As I said in the general election board,Sinn Féin has quite a few banana skins still that need tidying up by their promo department...
It's time people moved on to be honest.

marco murphy

It's time people moved on to be honest.

You're one of those people.

Michelle Gildernew thinks they should be ignored anyhow-her buddies with the guns are more important-even now in 2007.

A Dub in Glasgo

Rock Climber wrote:

It is an undeniable fact that more than 70% of a high turn out in NI voted for parties that did not support terrorism.
Thats an equivalent number to the oft quoted support for the GFA in the NI referendum on that.
So why are the views of that 70% on policing to be ignored? in favour of the minority view ?
Michelle Gildernew thinks they should be ignored anyhow-her buddies with the guns are more important-even now in 2007.
As I said in the general election board,Sinn Féin has quite a few banana skins still that need tidying up by their promo department...
It's time people moved on to be honest.

Eh? the largest party in NI supported terrorism

Even the British Government supported terrorism!!

Maybe you need to heed your last sentence

poblachtach

Ah and heres me thinking you didn't like whataboutery ADIG.

Do Sinn Féin not laud the past actions of the IRA and wasn't that terrorism in most peoples eyes?
Have they moved on from lauding them? I don't think so.

I do understand that you will point out that FG go down to Béal na Bláth and FF commererate some nasty things BUT and it's a big BUT-the families and friends of victims of the IRA are alive and well and fresh in peoples memories.
I'd agree that it's awkward to find a mechanism to reconcile the obvious need for SF and republicanism in general to laud their heroes with most peoples distaste for what it is Sinn Féins heroes were doing.

If the British army or the PSNI were running for election up there,I'd be saying the exact same thing about them.

poblachtach wrote:

You're one of those people.

I'd respectively suggest that you have a think about things if you think it's not outrageous for a politician in this day and age (when asked about the disappeared) to try and fudge what should and should not be a crime in a respectable society.


Mind you people should know better than to ask questions like the one asked on that occassion as the answer would have been obvious-ergo the question in my opinion was posed in a trouble making fashion.
That doesnt take at all though from the difficulty SF have (and one they shouldnt ignore) in finding a formula to reconcile their obvious and from their perspective necessary applause for their heroes with what most people would consider respectable.

A Dub in Glasgo

Tristrame wrote:

Ah and heres me thinking you didn't like whataboutery ADIG.

Have no idea what the prase means. However, if it means somebody who points out that the following is not correct 'It is an undeniable fact that more than 70% of a high turn out in NI voted for parties that did not support terrorism', I suppose I am guilty. Do you think the statement is correct?

Do Sinn Féin not laud the past actions of the IRA and wasn't that terrorism in most peoples eyes?
Have they moved on from lauding them? I don't think so.

Yes and yes, still does not make the statement by RC correct. Most people laud terrorists in one guise or another. Wasn't the commander of Bloody Sunday lauded by Queenie herself?

If the British army or the PSNI were running for election up there,I'd be saying the exact same thing about them.

Those institutions are instruments of the state therefore they are already in power (and have been for the period we are discussing)

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Have no idea what the prase means. However, if it means somebody who points out that the following is not correct 'It is an undeniable fact that more than 70% of a high turn out in NI voted for parties that did not support terrorism', I suppose I am guilty. Do you think the statement is correct?

Adig, you've used the phrase yourself "whataboutery" before.You know what it means.
Search is down but don't insult my inteligence saying you don't know what it means or imply you've never used it.

Yes and yes, still does not make the statement by RC correct. Most people laud terrorists in one guise or another. Wasn't the commander of Bloody Sunday lauded by Queenie herself?

What is a terrorist by your standards would be different to what most people would descibe as being a terrorist n'est pas ?
I don't see calls by most western populations to abolish all warfull activities that involve their armies-just some.
That said I think pointing out that none of the main stream parties in the 26 counties have friends and relatives of murder victims of people they laud alive is true.
Thats a very valid point.

Those institutions are instruments of the state therefore they are already in power (and have been for the period we are discussing)

Of course our armies and police in these islands have power but they are subject to what the result of a democratically elected governments allow them to do and by extention the population has a big say.

If you want to go on a crusade here for pacifism-fine do that but pin your own colours to the mast as exactly yours not everybodies.
Pacifism would be an ideal workable solution if humanity was perfect.
I hate to break it to you.It's not and never will be.

brianthebard

I was disappointed to see the SDLP didn't get more seats but I can't do anything about it.

FTA69

Rock Climber wrote:

It is an undeniable fact that more than 70% of a high turn out in NI voted for parties that did not support terrorism.

As opposed to the DUP led by Ian "UVF" Richard "Third Force" Kyle "Ulster Resistance" Paisley?

Zebra3

A terrorist is someone who uses terror to force their political agenda. The unionist parties are guilty of supporting terrorism in their unquestioning support for the terrorist activities of the British Army (in all its various guises), the RUC, and the B Specials.

And what about Peter Robinson leading the cross broder invasion and his subsequent conviction?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Robinson_%28politician%29

On August 7, 1986, in protest at the Anglo-Irish Agreement, Robinson led a group of 500 loyalists into the village of Clontibret, County Monaghan, in the Republic of Ireland. The loyalists entered the police station in the village and physically assaulted two officers, before holding a quasi-military drill in the square. Robinson was later arrested. He pleaded guilty to unlawful assembly and was fined £17,500 in a Drogheda court because of the incident. As a result, Robinson briefly resigned from the DUP deputy leadership

K-9

Zebra3 wrote:

A terrorist is someone who uses terror to force their political agenda. The unionist parties are guilty of supporting terrorism in their unquestioning support for the terrorist activities of the British Army (in all its various guises), the RUC, and the B Specials.

And what about Peter Robinson leading the cross broder invasion and his subsequent conviction?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Robinson_%28politician%29

The above is true but both sides need to move on. The sooner there is power sharing the sooner these events will lose their significance and emotional impact.

redspider

Here are some of my thoughts.

I agree that there has been little shift in the overall Nationalist, Unionist or Middle Ground positions. It is clear that the more extreme positions of SF and DUP have become more entrenched since the ceasefires and 1998 agreements and are now the mainstream of both 'sides'. Also, the 'sides' have become more entrenched rather than merged, balkanisation of streets continues, problems in mixed areas continue, and the only solution seems to be to continue living separately (yet sharing retail and other entertainment outlets). There are very few cross-over voters or indeed floating voters in terms of policy.

The road to 'redemption' and a mixed society in NI has yet to begin in earnest. There is some tolerance but there is a long way to go.

Here are some figures of interest:

election Nat Union Others
1998 39.6% 46.5% 13.9%
2003 40.5% 48.4% 11.1%
2007 41.4% 47.1% 11.5%

This trend shows that the Nationalist vote (1st preference in this case for both SDLP and SF) is creeping upwards, at a rate of 0.9% every 5 years. If this continues, the Nationalist and Unionist sides will be about even in 15 years time. It all depends on the demographics.

People talk about the rise of the DUP. The seat tallies have been:

elec UUP DUP
1998 28 20
2003 27 30
2007 18 36

On paper that looks like a major change, but given that after the 2003 election 7x UUP MLA's 'defected' to the DUP, the UUP have only lost 2 seats this time and one seat in 2003. DUP have mainly gained from the arguably more hardline UKUP, PUP and UUC who between them held 10 seats in 1998 and who hold just one now with PUP, posthumously perhaps for David Ervine. Those gains by DUP can be taken then as some type of 'mellowing', if Ian Paisly-led politics can be classified as mellow.

Overall though, things in NI will only change once personalties/people change. Big Ian is still there, so is a blockage. But so equally are Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, for what they represent as seen from the Unionist side. Why more people are voting for them now is unusual, but it seems at least for now to be a momentum that will continue.

Will there be power sharing in a few weeks? Possibly. I think Big Ian will want to give it a stab, to make his mark on his own 'backyard introverted history', perhaps with a badly working assembley, but one that at least exists in name if not in the most productive function. They can tackle water rates, as no-one wants those.

Ian is getting older now, he cant be around forever. People will change, things will change, but its like a slowly melting iceberg ..... this will take time. I have more faith in the next generation than this current one.

Redspider

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

As opposed to the DUP led by Ian "UVF" Richard "Third Force" Kyle "Ulster Resistance" Paisley?

Pfffttt how can you compare that "look at me I won't drink Barry's Tea" rag bag with the IRA.
All they ever did was march up and down the road and ,oh yeah get locked up for a night in the persona of peter Robinson,who incidently had his Ulster fry delivered to him in the Garda Barracks from the 6 counties in case he'd have to drink said barrys tea.

Lets face facts there are nearly a million people in the North who don't yet want to hand the keys over to Dublin and while they are the majority , all you'll have is the current arrangement(London Rule+red royal mail vans with some Dublin input) or hopefully a stormont Government but still with red mail boxes not a united Ireland.

All the pontificating under the sun on here is not going to change that.

LordSutch

Great to see 'Anna Lo' gaining a seat, and maybe the Alliance Party is part of the way forward? it certainly takes something back for the people caught in the middle (not forgetting the UUP-SDLP-UKUP) supporters who have sadly been squeezed out due to the DUP & Sinn Fein.

For sure the North will remain within the Union (thats for sure) seeing as we all voted for it in the Good friday Agreement, but that wont stop Sinn Fein chipping away, day after day, month after month, year after year in order to prize Northern Ireland out of the UK thus in the process getting rid of the Royal Mail + the BBC+ the National health Service, etc, etc, etc, etc ...............

I personally think that we currently have the perfect solution on this island by having the best of both jurastictions within reach (North & South) Sterling up North > Euro down South > Cheap Dentists up North > Private dentists down South > The BBC + ITV up North > RTE + TV3 South

I honestly think that if the killing and bombing have gone for good, then it is not a bad situation to have two jurastictions on this island of Ireland, and come to think of it "I think it could be a Great situation" once things are peaceful, and as long as there is not a constant threat to the Unionist-British way of life (and identity).

And lets face it once and for all (Unionist-British people are not Irish-Nationalist people) simple as that .........................

So lets share the island in peace.

FTA69

Pfffttt how can you compare that "look at me I won't drink Barry's Tea" rag bag with the IRA.
All they ever did was march up and down the road

March up and down the road? Ulster Resistance, a creation of Paisley and his band of merry men, actually brought weapons into this country including AKM assualt rifles, grenades, RPG 7 rocket launchers and CZ Czech machine pistols. These were then divided between the UR, UVF and UDA. According to Gusty Spence Paisley was also instrumental in the establishment of the UVF in 1966 but of course disassociated himeslf after they incinerated an elderly woman in an attempt to burn a Catholic home. They also killed a Catholic barman who they confused with IRA Volunteer Leo Martin.

Lets also not forget his march onto Divis Flats backed by a mob to rip down a Tricolour. Or his speeches which listed out Catholic residences in Protestant communities during his "fire and brimstone" speeches, of course he was on the way home while the petrol bombs were made.

Perhaps you should actually examine the man's past before writing him off as a fussy auld b*stard.