Greens v SF

is_that_so

A piece in the paper today got me thinking of the "constituency" of the Greens , particularly amongst the much younger voters. They can attract that left thinking individual or voters who are strongly anti-establishment. Now this is indeed the same demographic group that Sinn Fein tap into. With Green issues so prominent are the Greens not likely to reap a dividend?
Opinion polls put them at 8%.

On that basis it could be a very interesting election indeed. With that type of support and corresponding seats - could double to 12 seats and no "baggage" associated with them, the Greens could be the kingmakers for the next Dáil. Of particular interest I think will be the battle in Dublin Central between the "MEPs" Mary Lou and Patricia.

My feeling is that the Greens will enter power after the election, but even if FF are the largest party they will be able to extract enough concessions out of FF to satisfy their voters.

mike65

The Greens won't be in coalition with FF, they won't be asked as Labour will be larger and happier to join the Soldiers Of Fortune er Destiny.

As for Greens v Shinners, they have an obvious overlap in urban areas esp Dublin but ultimatly the likely SF voter will put 'republicanism' ahead of environmental concerns. That said this is a transferable vote system to many will give thier number two to the other party.

Mike.

Rock Climber

is_that_so wrote:

Now this is indeed the same demographic group that Sinn Fein tap into. With Green issues so prominent are the Greens not likely to reap a dividend?

There are a lot of D4 types that vote green that wouldn't vote SF in a month of sundays.
Green therefore has the best of both worlds.

marco murphy

the likely SF voter will put 'republicanism' ahead of environmental concerns.

The enviornment is high on Sinn Fein's agenda. It is possbile to have Republicanism AND environmentalism on top.

johnnyskeleton

Rock Climber wrote:

There are a lot of D4 types that vote green that wouldn't vote SF in a month of sundays.
Green therefore has the best of both worlds.

There are also a lot of hard working honest types, freedom loving pacificst types, otherwise apolitical types, happy go-lucky types, etc that wouldn't vote SF in a month of sundays.

SF like to put themselves out as a working class party, but I don't believe it. Right of centre parties like FG and PDs might not do anything to improve the lot of people on low incomes, but it is my opinion that neither would SF. There are certain rumours about what SF have done vis a vis crime prevention in areas where the gardai have failed but, even if they are true, they are not a long term way of dealing with crime. The only way to combat crime is by social improvements and a legitimate and accountable police force.

is_that_so

Rock Climber wrote:

There are a lot of D4 types that vote green that wouldn't vote SF in a month of sundays.
Green therefore has the best of both worlds.

You clipped off the bit about young voters. :rolleyes:
Agreed. D4 and other areas of affluence are prime territory for the Greens.
I am speculating here as to how voters who are "left" or "anti-establishment" might view the two parties and whether they would consider both. I believe that they will and in that scenario, IMO, for a number of voters the Greens would be perceived as more attractive.

marco murphy

There are certain rumours about what SF have done vis a vis crime prevention in areas where the gardai have failed but, even if they are true, they are not a long term way of dealing with crime. The only way to combat crime is by social improvements and a legitimate and accountable police force.

Which is exactly what Sinn Fein campaign for. Anti-social behaviour is linked to deprivation and a lack of amenities. It is a direct result of government failure to invites in working class communities. Sinn Féin proposes that each local authority should establish Community Policing Partnerships, one per policing district, as committees of the council where CPP members elected by the local authority would have the opportunity and responsibility to reflect community concerns and priorities and to make recommendations. There would be a monthly public meeting between CPP and District Superintendent, at which he or she would present reports and answer questions.

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

Which is exactly what Sinn Fein campaign for. Anti-social behaviour is linked to deprivation and a lack of amenities. It is a direct result of government failure to invites in working class communities. Sinn Féin proposes that each local authority should establish Community Policing Partnerships, one per policing district, as committees of the council where CPP members elected by the local authority would have the opportunity and responsibility to reflect community concerns and priorities and to make recommendations. There would be a monthly public meeting between CPP and District Superintendent, at which he or she would present reports and answer questions.

As long as it is above board, accountable, and not based on fear and violence, community policing can be a good idea. However, I don't think SF are working hard enough to dispel the more sinster rumours, and this concerns me. I don't for a second doubt that SF TDs, counsellors etc are all upstanding citizens, but I think they should stress their peaceful aims more clearly to some of the people who support them. Otherwise, the good name of the party gets dragged through the mud, and I would hate to see a tacit acceptance of unaccountable community policing by a prominent political party.

That said I think SF did very well in the Stormont elections (where the situation is different) and I think there will be some changes for the better in Northern Irish politics.

Múinteoir

Poblachtach wrote:

The enviornment is high on Sinn Fein's agenda.

Pretty much every other party has jumped on that bandwagon of late. Funny, they (all the other parties) weren't talking about the environment until the Greens were doing well in the polls and winning Dáil seats. Interesting pattern.

Zaphod

Going by the last election, SF took seats primarily from Labour/DL in Kerry North, Dublin SW and Louth. You can choose between a "loss" for FF or Labour in Dublin SC when it was increased from 4 to 5 seats.

The Greens gained at the expense of FG in Dublin South, Cork SC, Dún Laoghaire, and arguably in Dublin Mid West.

So while they seem to be broadly similar in terms of social and economic policies, they would also seem to be appealing to different strands of the electorate.

csk

johnnyskeleton wrote:

As long as it is above board, accountable, and not based on fear and violence, community policing can be a good idea. However, I don't think SF are working hard enough to dispel the more sinster rumours, and this concerns me. I don't for a second doubt that SF TDs, counsellors etc are all upstanding citizens, but I think they should stress their peaceful aims more clearly to some of the people who support them. Otherwise, the good name of the party gets dragged through the mud, and I would hate to see a tacit acceptance of unaccountable community policing by a prominent political party.

What more can SF do to dispel "sinister rumours" ? I am sure people who support the party are well aware of their policies already and seeing as SF policies are readily available on their website I do not see what more they can do ? As the election campaign gets under way I am sure SF candidates will have more opportunities to get their message across to the public, as will all parties.

Of course the only way "the good name of the party" would "get dragged through the mud" would be if say, people were to propagate these unsubstanitated "sinister rumours" on say, a website or something.

marco murphy

Your last point should be noted CSK, how true

Pretty much every other party has jumped on that bandwagon of late. Funny, they (all the other parties) weren't talking about the environment until the Greens were doing well in the polls and winning Dáil seats. Interesting pattern.

Well I suppose we should thank the greens for bringing it to our attention.

However, I don't think SF are working hard enough to dispel the more sinster rumours, and this concerns me.

Theres that many rumours.... What exactly?

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

Theres that many rumours.... What exactly?

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/01/13/opinion.htm
http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A02CF/vWeb/pcJUSQ68LQ9R-en
http://www.ireland.com/focus/election_2002/profiles/leaders12.htm

While I will not state what I have heard (as that would be me perpetuating the rumour) it seems to me that SF revel in the reputation of being tough on drug dealers and other criminals. This type of toughness, if true, is unaccountable and irreversible if they have made a mistake.

Rock Climber

csk wrote:

What more can SF do to dispel "sinister rumours" ? I am sure people who support the party are well aware of their policies already and seeing as SF policies are readily available on their website I do not see what more they can do ? As the election campaign gets under way I am sure SF candidates will have more opportunities to get their message across to the public, as will all parties.

I'm sure they will and of course most of those who already vote Sinn Féin either don't care about the IRA and prefer to thank community workers with a vote for their masters.
You can't rely on the community workers outside of disadvantaged areas to increase your vote.

Of course the only way "the good name of the party" would "get dragged through the mud" would be if say, people were to propagate these unsubstanitated "sinister rumours" on say, a website or something.

I don't know what this is all about.
Theres nothing rumorous about a connection with the IRA or praise for the good work of the likes of the Adare killers.
Again people who currently vote Sinn Féin will either ignore those types of associations or they will be of the view that the likes of people who killed in Adare are heroes.
Both types of people are minorities.
You are not going to significantly break out of that voting section and into mainstream politics with the help of community workers and the history of the IRA behind you.
You need credible policies.

Jackie laughlin

"What more can SF do to dispel "sinister rumours" ?" i) Give evidence/confess to An Garda and PSNI on crime, especially murders and conspiracy to commit murders. ii) Disband the IRA or say what it is for.

Any political ideology can have a green perspective.

There is a danger that young voters will be unaware of SFIRA's blood-soaked history. They have come to maturity thinking that G. Adams is a peaceful statesman. The media have been compliant in the lie for fear of upsetting the "peace process".

Community policing is very dangerous. Our Gardai working in the community is not what SFIRA have in mind; community rule is what they intend. Yes, An Garda has failed disgracefully in conceding the rule of law in deprived estates to vigilantes.

flamingo

It always makes me laugh the assumptions people make about the people who vote for particular parties ... it really isn't as clear cut as some people here seem to suggest!

For example, I know people who vote FF (God forgive them!), although they would most certainly see themselves as not fitting in with the 'FF' set or adhering to the 'FF' outlook on life ... similarly, it's a tad oversimplifying the case to say that "young voters will be unaware of SFIRA's blood-soaked history" . People's reasons for voting are typically many and varied - well, people who actually take their politics seriously, and think about what they're doing, rather than simply voting by party allegiance.

All that said, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the Greens!

Múinteoir

Another thing to note about the SF/Greens dimension, is that the Green are the only other party in the South along with SF of course, who have elected reps. in the North as well, with their three councillors and one MLA.
Still a small number, but it's still more than all the other southern parties have together. It'd be great to see the Greens be the party to eventually break the sectarian voting divide.

Villain

Sinn Fein will have Gerry Adams as their representative on RTE for pre-election debates which according to sunday papers isn't going down well with Labour, he may not be running for election himself but he is the Party Leader and has every right imo. I think its more to do with his ability to debate than where he is running for election.

csk

Rock Climber wrote:

I'm sure they will and of course most of those who already vote Sinn Féin either don't care about the IRA and prefer to thank community workers with a vote for their masters.
You can't rely on the community workers outside of disadvantaged areas to increase your vote.

I don't know what exactly you are getting at ? I was referring very specifically to the "sinister rumours" "vis a vis crime prevantion" that Johnnyskeleton was bringing up and the notion that Sinn Féin are not doing enough to stress "their pecefule aims to the people who support them".

As I am sure you are aware from the most recent elections up North, the people have overwhelmingly endorsed Sinn Féin. Included in this I am sure are quite a number of fromer SDLP supporters who would have had reservations about actvities of the Provisional IRA back in the day. IMO to say that all Sinn Féin supporters "don't care about the IRA" is to engage in silly stereotyping.

I don't know what this is all about.
Theres nothing rumorous about a connection with the IRA or praise for the good work of the likes of the Adare killers.
Again people who currently vote Sinn Féin will either ignore those types of associations or they will be of the view that the likes of people who killed in Adare are heroes. Both types of people are minorities.

Me neither! Again that is unfair stereotyping. You are the one bringing up associations with the PIRA, which has, according to no less a source than my Government "stood down" (for lack of a better term).

You are not going to significantly break out of that voting section and into mainstream politics with the help of community workers and the history of the IRA behind you.
You need credible policies.

I agree 100% and this is the process Sinn Féin are engaged in. However your dismissal of the tremondous work that Sinn Féin does in the community is rather unfair and seems to be down to a crude political subjectivism that wants to dismiss anything good that Sinn Féin does.

csk

Jackielaughlin wrote:

Community policing is very dangerous. Our Gardai working in the community is not what SFIRA have in mind; community rule is what they intend. Yes, An Garda has failed disgracefully in conceding the rule of law in deprived estates to vigilantes.

I agree An Garda Síochána has been massively under funded in the fight against crime and this has allowed crime to rise in this country, I fear we have Tánaiste Mc Dowell to thank for that.

However, it is not community rule that Sinn Féin want, it is communitiy policing as outlined by Poblachtach a few posts back.

In my own area (a small rural Town) in the past there was a kind of de facto community policing in place as the Gaedaí were well known and an integral part of the community. My area in recent times has experinced a population explosion which has almost double or even trebled. The gardaí have become aloof from the community and anti-social behaviour has been on the increase. A need to get back to the roots of An Garda Síochána is in need imo and this seems to be all Sinn Féin proposes.

As regards your point on disbanding, the last IMC report states, the PIRA "has disbanded “military” structures, including the General Headquarters
departments responsible for procurement, engineering and training, and it has
stood down volunteers and stopped allowances. Continuing inactivity itself
leads to further erosion of capability". It is important to note it is an ongoing process.

marco murphy

JonnySkeleton
There is obviously an Anti-Sinn Fein agenda going on here.
Just to point out, the links you provided, are out of date by a number of years.
Infact, the IRA had'nt even ended it's campaign with your first link, therefore I dont really think it's relevant to the 'rumours' being discussed.

Give evidence/confess to An Garda and PSNI on crime, especially murders and conspiracy to commit murders. ii) Disband the IRA or say what it is for.

What crimes has Sinn Fein to confess to?
What evidence has Sinn Fein to give?
What murders has Sinn Fein been involved in?

The IRA is just a body, without structure, and Iam sure is being disbanded if not already.
It will just fade, so don't worry. By the way, what good is an unarmed army.

There is a danger that young voters will be unaware of SFIRA's blood-soaked history.

Iam sure we can rely on you to not think about the future and bring up the past.
Or perhaps they are too aware of the only people working in their communities.

Community policing is very dangerous. Our Gardai working in the community is not what SFIRA have in mind; community rule is what they intend.

Perhaps a link to this element of a policy would be in order.

Rock Climber

You don't seem to realise poblachtach that Sinn Féin has many different banana skins to slip on that main stream parties don't.

Imagine not thinking the abduction and murder of a mother of 10 is a crime.
Thats outrageous.

While most of the electorate have probably accepted that murdering by the IRA is over,the whole thing is too fresh and Sinn Féin spokespersons haven't in them to condemn their own when they look on them as heroes.

Most of the country don't look on them in the same way,you'll have to get over that fact and it is a fact.

As regards an anti Sinn Féin agenda round here-thats a cop out.
Theres plenty of anti FF and anti FG posters here and I don't see their supporters crying.
They debate.

csk wrote:

However your dismissal of the tremondous work that Sinn Féin does in the community is rather unfair and seems to be down to a crude political subjectivism that wants to dismiss anything good that Sinn Féin does.

Thats not what I was saying.
I was pointing out that their community work has limitations-it's appreciated in the areas they have so far gone into but you won't find a need for the local SF guy arranging the fixing of evegutters in the majority of more upmarket estates or dealing with money lenders or with pushing for no 163's medical card for instance.
To break out into the other 60 or 70% of the population,you won't do it love bomb style with the community workers ,you will need popular policies.

Time Magazine

Rock Climber wrote:

Theres plenty of anti FF and anti FG posters here and I don't see their supporters crying.

You don't see it because we hide it so well.

On a serious note: yes, Poblachtach, I have an "agenda" with Sinn Féin in the same vein that I have a serious agenda with Robert Mugabe and Omar al-Bashir. I consider them an extremely dangerous political organisation with ridiculous policies, morally-corrupt leaders and a seditious recent history that makes my skin crawl.

How the hell anyone can support a party that equivocate over murder I do not know. Supporting working-class communities? Wasn't Robert McCartney working class? It's interesting how this ties into the aforementioned Omar al-Bashir. It's the Janjaweed murdering scores of thousands in Darfur, isn't it? Isn't it?

Quite frankly if Sinn Féin get into government, I'm getting a plane.

marco murphy

You don't seem to realise poblachtach that Sinn Féin has many different banana skins to slip on that main stream parties don't.

Yes I understand there are issues. But you must understand that the IRA has now called off it's activities, even more significant, as the killing of Mr. McCabe was not sanctioned by the GHQ.

Imagine not thinking the abduction and murder of a mother of 10 is a crime.
Thats outrageous.

Well if you want to dwell on that, its up to yourself.
However, that was at a time of huge conflict in the Six Counties, therefore no one really knows the facts.

marco murphy

How the hell anyone can support a party that equivocate over murder I do not know. Supporting working-class communities? Wasn't Robert McCartney working class?

Thats whole different debate.
On the second point.
Robert McCartney, working class? Yes, and also a Sinn Fein supporter.
Sinn Fein could do no more, by asking people with information to come forward, expelling six members and this further exceeded by the signing up to policincy.
The IRA, expelled the three members believed to be involved.


And how you can compare republicans to the Janjaweed is beyond my belief.

A Dub in Glasgo

Ibid wrote:

You don't see it because we hide it so well.

On a serious note: yes, Poblachtach, I have an "agenda" with Sinn Féin in the same vein that I have a serious agenda with Robert Mugabe and Omar al-Bashir. I consider them an extremely dangerous political organisation with ridiculous policies, morally-corrupt leaders and a seditious recent history that makes my skin crawl.

How the hell anyone can support a party that equivocate over murder I do not know. Supporting working-class communities? Wasn't Robert McCartney working class? It's interesting how this ties into the aforementioned Omar al-Bashir. It's the Janjaweed murdering scores of thousands in Darfur, isn't it? Isn't it?

Quite frankly if Sinn Féin get into government, I'm getting a plane.

You will be bringing up the Nazi comparison soon

There are a lot of people in the mainstream parties who support violence in one shape or another. Some of them actually provide logistics to slaughter. How can they do that and still get people to vote for them?

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

JonnySkeleton
There is obviously an Anti-Sinn Fein agenda going on here.
Just to point out, the links you provided, are out of date by a number of years.
Infact, the IRA had'nt even ended it's campaign with your first link, therefore I dont really think it's relevant to the 'rumours' being discussed.

I typed "ira punishment beatings north kerry" into google.ie and these were some of the results. I'm not sure if there are newspaper articles on the type of community policing that I've heard about.

In any case, I don't accept your logic that the papers being a few years old changes much. The Khmer Rouge were ousted in 1975 and AFAIK were disbanded in 1998, but that would not make me vote for Pol Pot (were he still alive) even if he smiled and invited me to a nice Q&A session with all my likeminded friends down the ole abandoned school building.

ibid wrote:

Quite frankly if Sinn Féin get into government, I'm getting a plane.

I'm inclined to agree. Bertie's comments last year that he would never go into government with SF suggest to me that that is something he is seriously thinking about (or else why say it?). I don't subscribe to any anti-Sinn Féin agenda, but I do have an anti-Sinn Féin bias. This is because they are in a different league to every other political party in the South.

johnnyskeleton

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

There are a lot of people in the mainstream parties who support violence in one shape or another. Some of them actually provide logistics to slaughter. How can they do that and still get people to vote for them?

Since this thread is Greens v. SF, I should say that the Greens do not support the US use of Shannon.

Poblachtach

Poblachtach wrote:

However, that was at a time of huge conflict in the Six Counties, therefore no one really knows the facts.

LoL.
The questions and answers programme wasn't back then.

A dub in glasgo wrote:

There are a lot of people in the mainstream parties who support violence in one shape or another. Some of them actually provide logistics to slaughter. How can they do that and still get people to vote for them?

Because they condemn murder in all circumstances perhaps eg when was the last time we went to war without UN approval?
Besides yours is fennickity logic as anyone working for a U.S company here supports the war in Iraq on that basis through taxes or users of BT broadband.

A Dub in Glasgo

Tristrame wrote:

Because they condemn murder in all circumstances perhaps

Besides yours is fennickity logic as anyone working for a U.S company here supports the war in Iraq on that basis through taxes or users of BT broadband.

Economics is an amazingly convienent excuse for slaughter

marco murphy

I typed "ira punishment beatings north kerry" into google.ie and these were some of the results. I'm not sure if there are newspaper articles on the type of community policing that I've heard about.

Again if you bothered to read my earlier post about community policing.
And, again those articles are out of date.

The Khmer Rouge were ousted in 1975 and AFAIK were disbanded in 1998,[/quotes]
Comparing the Khmer Rouge to Sinn Fein is rediculous, as is Pol Pot to Gerry Adams.



I do believe that the Greens and/or FF would go into coalition with Sinn Fein.
We all have our opinions, but I think people should move on from the war and perhaps it might take a lot longer than that, but the voters will decide.