Greens v SF

A Dub in Glasgo

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Since this thread is Greens v. SF, I should say that the Greens do not support the US use of Shannon.

I would say they do not but that is not the question asked of the poster who brought the thread away from Greens v SF

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Economics is an amazingly convienent excuse for slaughter

By the same token so is humanity,Christianity,Islam and dozens of other seemingly otherwise supposedly benign entities.

I would say they do not but that is not the question asked of the poster who brought the thread away from Greens v SF

It is almost a subject of it's own alright but I'm going to allow it to continue because it's relevant to what makes SF different to the Greens.

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

Comparing the Khmer Rouge to Sinn Fein is rediculous, as is Pol Pot to Gerry Adams.

I do not mean to make a comparison between SF and KK nor between Pol Pot and Gerry Adams, but I want to highlight that where a party has a history of violence, and when I don't really believe that they will reform, I would not vote for them.

Especially when other parties are offering the same or similar policies but without the questionable history.

A Dub in Glasgo

Tristrame wrote:

By the same token so is humanity,Christianity,Islam and dozens of other seemingly otherwise supposedly benign entities.

Who said they were not?

Villain

Ibid wrote:

Quite frankly if Sinn Féin get into government, I'm getting a plane.

I hope that plane is fueled and ready to go because there is a very good chance Sinn Fein will be in Government by the end of the month.... oh wait sorry thats north of the border it doesn't count :rolleyes:


Also I always love the way some people have no problem with Sinn Fein being in government north of the border governing the other 6 counties of this Island but hell will freeze over before they would accept it in the other 26 counties, I mean you are either against them or your not imo.

Liam Byrne

I have to laugh at Sinn Fein people who trot out the "under-resourced Gardai" as an issue.

As far as I can remember, the Gardai would be up at least one member were it not for some individuals in Adare who apparently wanted our money.

While that action apparently wasn't sanctioned by anyone in particular or related to SF, IT WAS NEVER CONDEMNED by anyone from SF either, and to add insult to injury SF also actively campaigned to get these murderers released, as well as getting photographed with them, etc, etc.

There have been lots of other dodgy and reprehensible actions done in the name of "the struggle". IMHO this was usually just a convenient cover, and anyone loses my respect as soon as they injure or murder any innocent individual. There are also lots of those events that I won't claim to know enough about, other than the fact that they do not represent my views or my opinion of what republicanism or Irishness is.

But on the murder in Adare alone, it is fair to say that any "anti-Sinn Fein agenda" is self-imposed by them; they chose their stance on it, and they have to live with people's opinion of that stance. If they reckon they're going into the Government which hires and controls the same police force that they decide it's OK to shoot and murder, they can p**s off, in my book.

Bertie came close to selling out on this subject too, so he's not exactly high in my opinion either.

Bottom line is that you vote for the people who best represent your views; any common socialist ground between SF and GP might be a nice-to-have, and might be a nice alternative to the high-inflation, low quality of life, shop-around, money-driven privatisation agenda of the current political parties, but that comes much lower on my list of priorities than respect for law and order and people's rights.

I said before that I'd be on the plane - like Ibid - if an unrepentant SF got into Government.

North of the border is a little different, as there were two sides to most stories there - I'm not condoning anything, just saying that you can't point fingers because there were too many at the same thing and not giving a b*****x about innocent people; I was always anti-violence and hated people claiming they were doing it for Ireland or disgracing the Irish flag or associating us all with extremist views, but the murder in Adare was a HUGE eye-opener since it was the murder - by supposedly "some of our own" :rolleyes: - of a representative this state and its people - the state and people that SF now supposedly want to represent.

marco murphy

I don't really believe that they will reform, I would not vote for them

I don't see where you're coming from.
The IRA has declared its war over. Sinn Fein has signed up to policing. They have done well in the A. Elections therefore ready for government. Isn't this reform?

Very good point Irish1, however, there remains a monority, realistically, and on this forum, that pretty much doesnt give a ****e about the 6 counties.

johnnyskeleton

irish1 wrote:

Also I always love the way some people have no problem with Sinn Fein being in government north of the border governing the other 6 counties of this Island but hell will freeze over before they would accept it in the other 26 counties, I mean you are either against them or your not imo.

It does at first glance seem strange, but you have to remember that:
1. Just because people have no problem with SF in the North does not mean they support SF in the North.

2. People are obviously more tolerant to the shortcomings of their neighbour's government than they are of their own. I would not want, for example, French taxation policy, but I have no problem with the French taxing the hell out of each other if they like.

3. Politics in the North are more extreme (for want of a better word) than in the south. The best example I can give is that government ministers in the North do not necessarily have to know anything about their department. For example, the minister for education does not have to be well educated or have any particular educational policies. IMO, the assembly is not really concerned with school dinners and the like.

4. Because the troubles still need to be resolved, SF have to be part of the solution. If the major parties in NI politics were replaced by, for example, Labour, the Tories and the Liberal Democrats, the peace process would fall apart.

5. There is only one real issue in NI politics, the rest is largely window dressing. In the South most people don't care that much about that issue, and are more concerned with peace and prosperity than they are about nationalism.

By the way, the you are either with us or against us is George Bush logic.

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

I don't see where you're coming from.
The IRA has declared its war over. Sinn Fein has signed up to policing. They have done well in the A. Elections therefore ready for government. Isn't this reform?

The Chinese Government has declared that it is helping to bring Tibet into the 21st century (after 50 years ago declaring that it was helping them to achieve liberty from themselves). They have also stopped executing Tibetan monks, provided that they don't say anything about politics or mention the Dali Lama. Isn't this also reform?

flamingo

johnnyskeleton wrote:

The Chinese Government has declared that it is helping to bring Tibet into the 21st century (after 50 years ago declaring that it was helping them to achieve liberty from themselves). They have also stopped executing Tibetan monks, provided that they don't say anything about politics or mention the Dali Lama. Isn't this also reform?

not really the same thing, is it?! i mean, the fact that SF and the IRA have both moved significantly in the last number of years is really not up for debate - except by the DUP. Two national governments have supported and praised the moves made by SF / IRA ... who has endorsed or overseen the 'reforms' of the Chinese?!

Fair enough, they might not have refomed enough to satisfy you, but your comparison is just ridiculous.

Time Magazine

Poblachtach wrote:

Robert McCartney, working class? Yes, and also a Sinn Fein supporter.
Sinn Fein could do no more, by asking people with information to come forward, expelling six members and this further exceeded by the signing up to policincy.
The IRA, expelled the three members believed to be involved.

Reckon his sisters voted for SF last week?

And how you can compare republicans to the Janjaweed is beyond my belief.

I am a republican. Sinn Féin, despite their protestations, do not have a monopoly on republicanism. In fact I'd argue I'm far more of a republican than the average SF member.

I'm not comparing republicans to the Janjaweed. I'm comparing the relationship between SF and IRA to the Sudanese government and the Janjaweed.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Economics is an amazingly convienent excuse for slaughter

Do you want to extrapolate on that point, or just leave it as meaningless as it stands?

irish1 wrote:

I hope that plane is fueled and ready to go because there is a very good chance Sinn Fein will be in Government by the end of the month.... oh wait sorry thats north of the border it doesn't count

And thank f*ck the North doesn't set policy in this country. Yes, I'd flee if Ian was in government too.

Also I always love the way some people have no problem with Sinn Fein being in government north of the border governing the other 6 counties of this Island but hell will freeze over before they would accept it in the other 26 counties, I mean you are either against them or your not imo.

There's no contradiction. Despite my preference for the SDLP, SF have a democratic mandate in the North and they should govern. Now, imo, the North is a hole filled with bigoted discrimination and even worse weather than the South. I wouldn't live there, even for the £5,000 subsidy the Crown gives to each citizen each year because they can't provide for themselves. (AKA I'm preferring the economic and social climate in a country where SF are a fringe party.)

csk

Liam Byrne wrote:

I have to laugh at Sinn Fein people who trot out the "under-resourced Gardai" as an issue.

I suppose since I mde the point that is directed at me? I don't know about you but I would have thought with an election coming up that the under-resourcing of An Garda Síochána, the quality of life where people commute upto six hours daily, live in a sh!t cardbox house in the middle of nowhere they can barely afford, sh!t infrastructural planning, sh!t public transport, immigration, the environment etc. are the important issues. Surely that is what we should be tackling and not mindless ranting and whataboutery?

There have been lots of other dodgy and reprehensible actions done in the name of "the struggle".

There have been lots of dodgy and reprehensible actions done in the name of "the Union". You have had the luxury of never having experienced them. Why do you think that might be ?

If they reckon they're going into the Government which hires and controls the same police force that they decide it's OK to shoot and murder, they can p**s off, in my book.

The same was said bout Fianna Fáil, the guards would mutiny, the army would stage a coup, there would be bloodbaths, anarchy all manner of ****e.

Fianna Fáil went on to become the biggest party in Ireland, who have been in Government for how much time? 75% or more isn't it?
Maybe most people's problem is not what happened in the past but what could happen in the future.

North of the border is a little different, as there were two sides to most stories there - I'm not condoning anything, just saying that you can't point fingers because there were too many at the same thing and not giving a b*****x about innocent people; I was always anti-violence and hated people claiming they were doing it for Ireland or disgracing the Irish flag or associating us all with extremist views, but the murder in Adare was a HUGE eye-opener since it was the murder - by supposedly "some of our own" - of a representative this state and its people - the state and people that SF now supposedly want to represent.

So basically what that piece of logical gymnastics says is "I'm going ot point all the fingers I want, you are not allowed though, because adding context would ruin my point". :rolleyes: However I will say, yes North of the border is very different. Irish people (yes "some of our own"!) were denied the very basic of rights. What's more the British state in order to uphold its law, sponsored death squads to murder innocent Irish people for no other reason than they were Irish. What's even more disgusting is that they also honoured, if that's the right word, those responsible for Bloody Sunday. Private Lee Clegg was also realeased from prison, no one campaigned for him, there was no democratically backed Agreement under which he was allowed early release, just well because the British obviously felt he did nothing wrong or something.

Mindless whataboutery goes both ways, neither however, deal with anything substantial apart from glorified whinging.

marco murphy

I am a republican. Sinn Féin, despite their protestations, do not have a monopoly on republicanism. In fact I'd argue I'm far more of a republican than the average SF member.

Really? And you base that on what? How exactly are you republican?

is_that_so

So this has turned into yet another thread with trenchant diametrically opposed arguments about SF. I think this sums up their problem. To their supporters they are the only choice, to everyone else the jury is at the very least, out.

They are good on all things republican, they always have an answer as to how the North should be run but to my mind somewhat suspect on what should happen here. To date SF has been about establishing a Dail presence, now they are looking to make that a major presence with aspiration, long or short-term for government.

On that basis their policies will be open to a lot more scrutiny and even ridicule. In some respects that is an acknowledgement that they are perceived as a threat to other parties.

Attacking Sinn Fein policies is what happens in democracy the way FF, FG ,Labour or any other party is attacked. That's politics. Unfortunately some SF supporters view it an attack on their core beliefs.

They will be put on the spot by politicians, journalists and the public. The semantic gymnastics and ambivalence that they used in the North will not work here. We don't believe FF and we will certainly not believe any party that tells us to "do what you feel comfortable with" and not "go to the police".
They will have to add real flesh to their policies,defend them and provide justification and credibility for them. So far they haven't proven themselves able to do so and they, like every other party, can expect a grilling on what their policies will actually do for us.

Whatever way you look at the contribution Sinn Fein have made, for many voters the position of the North will be consigned to history for now,either because they will be part of an assembly or direct rule will have replaced it. As one commentator mentioned over the weekend it is important and worthy but terribly dull stuff. Even so the legacy of what they were connected to hangs over them in the minds of many people, which was really what prompted the original question and therefore the suggestion that for some it's easier to vote for the Green Party over SF.

Liam Byrne

I suppose since I mde the point that is directed at me? I don't know about you but I would have thought with an election coming up that the under-resourcing of An Garda Síochána, the quality of life where people commute upto six hours daily, live in a sh!t cardbox house in the middle of nowhere they can barely afford, sh!t infrastructural planning, sh!t public transport, immigration, the environment etc. are the important issues.

I agree 100%, but that's not the point that I was making. I don't know whether you conveniently ignored the remainder or reasoning behind my point or whether it was a genuine error, but let's assume that it was genuine.

Under-resourced Gardai ARE a genuine problem - no question; my point was that at least part of the reason Gardai are under-resourced is that they have had members shot and have had to chase after, shall we say, "certain individuals and organisations" committing crimes.

There have been lots of dodgy and reprehensible actions done in the name of "the Union". You have had the luxury of never having experienced them. Why do you think that might be ?

Let me guess - you're saying that I have my "freedom" because of the recent bunch of criminals ? No way, Jose! My grandmother used to make the distinction that the "old IRA" never hurt or killed anyone innocent.....that's distinction #1.

Also (distinction #2) what the UK do is of less interest to me - they're not claiming to be "on my side", so they haven't implied that they have my support. But I'm sick of SF & Co claiming that their version and vision of Ireland is what we should all be hoping for. There are lots of people doing lousy things worldwide, and we'll criticise them, sure, but I'll come down twice as strongly on anyone who does lousy things and then claims that they have my support, or are doing it for me, or that I'm less Irish because I don't agree with them.

Like Poblachtach's post above, querying "how exactly are you republican" ? Why query that ? How, exactly, is Poblachtach republican ? And what do we say if his explanation of how he views himself as republican differs from what we think is republican ? Who has the right to say/judge ?

Is it George Bush's definition (blow the bo****x out of anyone who disagrees with us) ? That if you're don't agree with him or support him, that you're somehow against him and against his view of "freedom". If so, count me out.

Or is it the French version - "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity" ? That's more like what I believe it to be, and therefore, in that definition, I'm definitely one.

But I'm sick of having to explain my views by saying "yes, but I'm not an extremist or advocator of violence".

To be fair to SF, given the progress they've helped to achieve in dragging their backward-facing supporters into the 21st century, there are a few things in SF's approach that do reflect some of my views, but until they agree that people who do bad things - particularly to innocent bystanders - should be accountable and punished, they are of no interest to me; I can't justify voting for a group with whom I have fundamental differences of opinion on matters of life and death and justice.

Think Iraq.....whatever about the fact that the "war" there is illegal and immoral, there is an argument that if two armies want to go at each other, then let 'em off......but when innocent Iraqis are being killed and tortured, then those involved are just as lawless as any other criminals.

When SF accept this, then I'll accept them.

In the meantime, as pointed out by a few posters, the Greens have good social policies but "without the baggage".

csk

Liam Byrne wrote:

I agree 100%, but that's not the point that I was making. I don't know whether you conveniently ignored the remainder or reasoning behind my point or whether it was a genuine error, but let's assume that it was genuine.

Under-resourced Gardai ARE a genuine problem - no question; my point was that at least part of the reason Gardai are under-resourced is that they have had members shot and have had to chase after, shall we say, "certain individuals and organisations" committing crimes.

Yes I did ignore the majority of your post, Why? because it mindless whataboutery for whataboutery's sake.
I could have took you up on some more points but why bother? when all you want to do is ignore my point and instead use it as lauchpad for your own spiel.

Let me guess - you're saying that I have my "freedom" because of the recent bunch of criminals ? No way, Jose! My grandmother used to make the distinction that the "old IRA" never hurt or killed anyone innocent.....that's distinction #1.

Eh no actually. I'm saying you never had to experience the reprehensible things done to uphold the Union because you have the privilege to live in an Irish State. A rather large portion of the Irish Nation don't have that privilege.
Your distinction #1 is historically innacurate.

Also (distinction #2) what the UK do is of less interest to me - they're not claiming to be "on my side", so they haven't implied that they have my support. But I'm sick of SF & Co claiming that their version and vision of Ireland is what we should all be hoping for. There are lots of people doing lousy things worldwide, and we'll criticise them, sure, but I'll come down twice as strongly on anyone who does lousy things and then claims that they have my support, or are doing it for me, or that I'm less Irish because I don't agree with them.

Yes I agree, what the UK does is of no interest to me either, take Iraq for example couldn't give a continental fcuk. However, what happens to Irish people is of interest to me. I get the distinct impression from the above that you may think it's the 70's again or else that we are talking about Republican Sinn Féin a whole different party. Sinn Féin are claiming no more than any other political party at this stage.

Like Poblachtach's post above, querying "how exactly are you republican" ? Why query that ? How, exactly, is Poblachtach republican ? And what do we say if his explanation of how he views himself as republican differs from what we think is republican ? Who has the right to say/judge ?

Why don't you read what Poblachtach is responding to. He is querying it because someone else very specifically said that they were more republican than the average "shinner".

But I'm sick of having to explain my views by saying "yes, but I'm not an extremist or advocator of violence".

So you come on and use someone else's substantive point as launchpad for your own whataboutery that explains you views!???
I, for the record, am not one of those either.

To be fair to SF, given the progress they've helped to achieve in dragging their backward-facing supporters into the 21st century, there are a few things in SF's approach that do reflect some of my views, but until they agree that people who do bad things - particularly to innocent bystanders - should be accountable and punished, they are of no interest to me; I can't justify voting for a group with whom I have fundamental differences of opinion on matters of life and death and justice.

Yes credit where credit is due and what makes that achievement all the more remarkable is that they have done it all despite the backward faced opposers who seem hell bent on dragging them back to the to the past at every opportunity.

Think Iraq.....whatever about the fact that the "war" there is illegal and immoral, there is an argument that if two armies want to go at each other, then let 'em off......but when innocent Iraqis are being killed and tortured, then those involved are just as lawless as any other criminals.

When SF accept this, then I'll accept them.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.

Rock Climber

is_that_so wrote:

So this has turned into yet another thread with trenchant diametrically opposed arguments about SF. I think this sums up their problem. To their supporters they are the only choice, to everyone else the jury is at the very least, out.

They are good on all things republican, they always have an answer as to how the North should be run but to my mind somewhat suspect on what should happen here. To date SF has been about establishing a Dail presence, now they are looking to make that a major presence with aspiration, long or short-term for government.

On that basis their policies will be open to a lot more scrutiny and even ridicule. In some respects that is an acknowledgement that they are perceived as a threat to other parties.

Attacking Sinn Fein policies is what happens in democracy the way FF, FG ,Labour or any other party is attacked. That's politics. Unfortunately some SF supporters view it an attack on their core beliefs.

They will be put on the spot by politicians, journalists and the public. The semantic gymnastics and ambivalence that they used in the North will not work here. We don't believe FF and we will certainly not believe any party that tells us to "do what you feel comfortable with" and not "go to the police".
They will have to add real flesh to their policies,defend them and provide justification and credibility for them. So far they haven't proven themselves able to do so and they, like every other party, can expect a grilling on what their policies will actually do for us.

Whatever way you look at the contribution Sinn Fein have made, for many voters the position of the North will be consigned to history for now,either because they will be part of an assembly or direct rule will have replaced it. As one commentator mentioned over the weekend it is important and worthy but terribly dull stuff. Even so the legacy of what they were connected to hangs over them in the minds of many people, which was really what prompted the original question and therefore the suggestion that for some it's easier to vote for the Green Party over SF.

That about sums it up from a neutral observers point of view.

This thread has done it's stuff and is being closed