24 hour bars. Good/bad idea?

JC 2K3

FlutterinBantam wrote:

We are a nation of soaks.... thats it... it's true... stats show it .... get on with life!!!

We're just people. There's nothing on our genes that prompts us to drink. Stats show that countires with more liberal alcohol laws have less problems, why not take a leaf out of their books?

FlutterinBantam

Our drinking CULTURE is bad.

We don't know when to stop.

McDowell tried to do something with the "Cafe Bar" stuff.

What happened... got ridden out of town.... saddled up and ridden over the cliff.

So don't patronise me with genes .

Dave!

I'd agree with the sentiment that it would be a messy transitional period, but in the long run it would be much better. If people want to drink themselves into a coma, they are currently able to. It's quite common to get locked before you go out, and/or to bring a naggin of vodka with you. If someone wants to finish the night passed out on the street, then they will do it, regardless of closing time. If there is no early closing time, then all those people who are knocking back the vodkas at least won't be leaving the pub at the same time, causing fights, overcrowding, etc. Whichever minister thought it was a good idea to have a mass exodus of drunk people at 2am or whatever, was a nut-job.

What's been Minister McDowell's response to 24-hr opening hours? I seem to remember it being put to him a few months ago.

FlutterinBantam

I fail to see the logic of your argument

"If people want to drink themselves into a coma they are able to"

Thats what they seem to want to do!!!!



If people drive cars around like madmen widening the road won't help.

You tackle the DRIVING CULTURE!!

Can people not understand its the DRINKING CULTURE that needs to be tackled ??

daiixi

You can easily drink 24/7 in Australia and tbh Australians don't drink as much as the Irish do.

GuanYin

It's funny, I lived in Germany and Belgium for a while and during this period, I saw alot of Irish come and go. When they arrived and joined the drinking set, they'd inisst on having pints and lashing them back.

Over the course of time they realised that (A) with the weather, the pints got warm before they were halfway through and (B) they were pissed and needing to leave by 2am when just about everyone else was getting into the night.

By the time they left, almost all of them were happy to sit drinking maybe 10 glasses of beer slowly over a 7-9 hour period.

The Irish infrastructure is designed for binge drinking. As we work longer hours and people need to eat/change and find public transport they don't get into bars til 9pm and then have 3-4 hours to enjoy themselves.

People are usually stressed by the time they get out and feel rushed. Hence you get binge culture where you don't feel you get the most out of the night unless you throw back the drinks.

I firmly believe that 24 hour bars would help change this.
The first thing needed would be to change the public transport and services industry to 24 hours services. Garda patrols at night would need to be streamlined too.

But if you can get people out, taking their time, enjoying themselves and relaxing, then you may see a shift away from binge drinking.

Personally, as someone who worked in and whose family owned a bar, I can't see publicans ever going for it. Irish drink culture is driven by the publicans and binge drinking is profitable.

Think about the bars in cities? Loud music, no seating, too hot. This is designed to make you drink faster and drink more. They don't want you sitting for hours sipping drinks.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

daiixi wrote:

You can easily drink 24/7 in Australia and tbh Australians don't drink as much as the Irish do.

You're looking for a fight there, just wait for an Auzzie to see that:p

FlutterinBantam

You can drink 24/7 anywhere!!!! No big frikken deal.

Just buy a few cans.

Jeesh is it any wonder we are in the state we are in!!

FlutterinBantam

psi wrote:

Personally, as someone who worked in and whose family owned a bar, I can't see publicans ever going for it. Irish drink culture is driven by the publicans and binge drinking is profitable.

Think about the bars in cities? Loud music, no seating, too hot. This is designed to make you drink faster and drink more. They don't want you sitting for hours sipping drinks.

Which is exactly why Mc Dowells system was rejected and exactly why we are at the top of the binge drinking league.

guildofevil

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Our drinking CULTURE is bad.
We don't know when to stop.
McDowell tried to do something with the "Cafe Bar" stuff.
What happened... got ridden out of town.... saddled up and ridden over the cliff.
So don't patronise me with genes .

I'm sorry, are you still against 24 hour drinking or not? If you are, can you please tell me why the current system is better than one which would allow pubs to close when they please rather than at a mandated time.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Did I mention Irish culture... I said Irish drinking culture.

Irish drinking culture, is a part of Irish culture and cultures are not static. Things change. Cultures change and you cannot predict how that will occur. You said we will never be ready for 24 hour opening. I said that you cannot say that, because you don't know what way our culture will change.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Just listening to reports that we are Numero uno in the EU binge drinking league.
Now pleeeeease don't blame me for that, thats what the survey says.

I didn't say anything about a survey. I didn't blame you for anything. I just sated the simple fact that you were making a statement that you quite simply cannot make with any certainty at all. It was a ridiculous, blanket statement which assumes that a specific part of Irish culture, i.e. our drinking culture, will remain unchanged for all time.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

We have been there or thereabouts for as long as I care to remember.

Which doesn't mean it always will be that way.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Now would you for Chrissakes accept the FACTS and stop trying to be pedantic.

How am I denying facts here? I may seem a little pedantic here, but that is because I am trying to lay it out clearly for the hard of understanding.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

We are a nation of soaks.... thats it... it's true... stats show it .... get on with life!!!

And off he goes with the blanket statements again. Apparently we are all soaks now. Do you include yourself in that FlutterinBantam?



If you want to change Irish drinking culture there are several things you need to do.

1. Stop the useless practice of pressurising kids to make the pledge when they are 12. Very few keep it until they are 18 but most will hide the fact from their parents. Immediately, alcohol is something illicit and parents are deprived of the opportunity to introduce their children to it gradually, in a controlled environment, under their supervision. Instead of being taught a responsible attitude to alcohol, they end up experimenting and being introduced to binge drinking by their peers.

2. Deregulation of alcohol licences. Get rid of the current system of pub, club and restaurant licences. Anyone, be they a publican, a café owner, or a restaurateur can get a licence to sell alcohol, for a reasonable administrative fee. They all have to abide by the same regulations.

3. Allow alcohol to be sold at any time. Let pubs, cafés, shops, restaurants, etc. to open and close when they want and sell alcohol if they want.

FlutterinBantam

jaysus!!!

That was McDowells policy!!!

You know what happened to that.Vested interests blew it out of the water.

guildofevil

No. the café bar idea was a watered down version of what needs to be done and yes, vested interests, i.e. publicans killed it. McDowell made no attempt to get rid of pub closing times, which is a much greater cause of our binge drinking culture than our crowded pubs.

Publicans don't want deregulation because that would mean they would have competition and they like the little cartel they call the vintners federation. Most of them don't want 24 hour drinking either, because they are making a killing from our binge drinking culture.

Imagine how much money they make at last orders. People who don't want the night to end, force down more drink than is wise and are kicked out into the night. Then the the publican can just close the pub and count the cash, without having to deal with the drunken mess those people are going to be in, once those drinks hit them.

If they didn't have the excuse of pub closing laws to help them kick people out into the street, they might actually have to let people drink at their own pace. Those people might drink less, or of they don't, they might still be on the premises when they get out of control. All that and later nights? No. The publicans have it sweet, just the way it is.

So, FlutterinBantam, are you still against 24 hour drinking? If you are, can you please tell me why the current system is better than one which would allow pubs to close when they please rather than at a mandated time.

Bradidup

Like anything else that comes into this country, if it gets out of control it would be a disaster, the cops would have no rest, d&d around the clock, 24 hour stag parties, no sleep, no thanks....What about going in the oposite direction......Ie, bring in prohibition!!!!!!!

guildofevil

Bradidup wrote:

Like anything else that comes into this country, if it gets out of control it would be a disaster, the cops would have no rest, d&d around the clock, 24 hour stag parties, no sleep, no thanks....

The situation is already out of control, or hadn't you noticed? Previous posters have quoted lots of statistics to illustrate exactly how bad things are.

Where are all these extra drunks going to come from?

You can already drink as late as you like, if you are willing to accept cover charges and/or going to dodgy late night clubs, illegal lock ins, or takeaway, purchased earlier.

No sleep? So are you saying that people would stay out all night every night, just because they weren't sent home for their own good? Would you? I wouldn't.

How come most people don't go out every night as it is? I mean, have you ever looked into an average pub on a Tuesday night? I've been in queues that were more exciting.

People have jobs, families, lives, financial commitments. They will not loose all run of themselves and descend into instant alcoholism, just because they are allowed to stay in the pub longer than they used to be.

Bradidup wrote:

What about going in the oposite direction......Ie bring in prohibition!!!!!!!

Well that always works, doesn't it?

I mean the US had wonderful success with it, so us nice, law abiding Irish would just tow the line, just like they did.

Reasons why not:

1.Freedom of choice. If people want to drink it is their decision.

2.If you prohibit something you lose control over it. Illegal alcohol would be produced and distributed by criminals. There would be no excise duty, no quality control, no age restrictions, no closing time (ahem) and the Garda force would have to waste valuable resources investigating people, like me, brewing in their back yard for their own consumption.

3.Economic pressures. The prohibition of alcohol would destroy several industries, (brewing, tourism, etc.) which provide a lot of employment and help fuel the economy.

4.It would be political suicide to even attempt such a daft thing.

FlutterinBantam

Hello!!!! Guild I am not against 24 hour drinking,sure as we speak I am tanking back a few cans of Royal Dutch.

name of thread...24 hour bars..good/bad idea.

the reason I think its a bad idea is that we have a drink culture which would not make this work.

It works in other countries because the drink culture is much more sophisticated and enjoyment and relaxation is the key rather than horsing down as much as you can.

If you think that's a figment of my imagination get yer ass down to Downeys in Phibsboro and tell me if the atmosphere is gentle and relaxed!!!!

You go on about people trying to "force it down" before closing time.!!!!

Force it down!!!! for Chrissakes why would you want to force it down.

can you imagine the average Italian/Greek/Spaniard forcing down wine at the end of a meal.

I would love 24 hour drinking,but until the majority of our drinking population can be mature enough to handle that phenomenon,I think it's a bad idea.

Kell

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Now would you for Chrissakes accept the FACTS and stop trying to be pedantic.

Heres a fact. Everyone can pretty much get their hands on any drug they want to at any time they choose. So why doesnt everyone take e, hash, coke etc etc? Its called self regulation.

24hr opening times would be fantastic, a dream come true. I agree with all the statements about the desire to drink more going hand in hand with the actual desire of wanting to be more sociable. Irish people are very sociable folk. Lots of nations are noted by moodiness, snobbiness etc, but Ireland is noted for Nice, Sociable, Welcoming people and juice just greases up the cogs of socialising.

24hr openings would be self regulating too. There are always those who go out to get smashed, but there are also those who are regulated by the fact that the next day will be a complete and utter waste of time if they dont regulate what time they go home at.

K-

guildofevil

The drinking culture will not change until closing time is abolished. Our binge drinking culture is, in no small part, a result of this stupid set-up. If it continues, so will the associated behaviour.

I agree that 24 hour pub hours, on their own are not a complete solution, but they are an essential part of any workable plan to cut down on binge drinking, by changing Irish attitudes to alcohol. Breaking the vintners association monopoly by deregulating alcohol licences would also be necessary. With more competition, more variety would spring up. Maybe then I would actually be able to find a nice, civilised place to go out and relax.

How can a drink culture which is much more sophisticated and where enjoyment and relaxation are the key, develop with Irish pubs the way they are?

The current system is juts a way for publicans to empty their punters pockets in as short a time as possible and I resent it.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

can you imagine the average Italian/Greek/Spaniard forcing down wine at the end of a meal.

They don't have to. The waiter isn't screaming in their ear to get them to finish up and get out.

BrenC

Bad idea, I think things are good the way they are now...except for the prices.

Dave!

FlutterinBantam wrote:

I fail to see the logic of your argument

"If people want to drink themselves into a coma they are able to"

Thats what they seem to want to do!!!!



If people drive cars around like madmen widening the road won't help.

You tackle the DRIVING CULTURE!!

Can people not understand its the DRINKING CULTURE that needs to be tackled ??

You got any suggestions on how to do that?

How about we deal with the symptoms (eg. street violence) until we find a way to treat the disease.

Bradidup

You can all forget 24 hour bars in this country. Who is going to pay the extra staff, door bouncers around the clock, Djs, etc?

I work as a DJ in bars and know what goes on behind the sceenes, It takes up to two to three hours to clean up the mess in a busy pub and has to be done regularly or else the stagnent smell of stale beer remains for days.

In places like Ennis 1/3 of the pubs have gone bust since the smoking ban became inforced and thats because of a drop in patrons, you hardly think theres going to be a mad rush back to them if they keep their doors open 24 hours!!!

Dave!

The licences would be for 24 hours, I wouldn't imagine most places would stay open for 24 hours though. But the point is that it would be up to the different establishments what time they want to close, and so if some stay open later and others earlier, then everybody won't be on the street at the same time.

Bradidup

I would agree with some sort of a staggering of the drink times and closing of nightclubs. Take for example in Ennis, three clubs finish at 2.am, when cleared everyone hangs around da burger joints on Abby street. It is a show in its self. The only prob with stggering times is that the crowd would move to the pub/club that stays open the latest!!, it wont work either.

Dave!

It's the same deal in Dublin... everyone leaves at the same time and goes to Burger King, McDonald's, Abrakebabra, etc. The result is usually a few fights, plenty of overcrowding, and alot of demand for taxis (as well as the Nightlink being like something out of India).

Sure, people may gravitate towards the pub with the longest opening hours (although I don't think that everybody wants to stay out until McDonalds start serving breakfast), but at the end of the day, the pubs have a finite capacity, so they can't let everybody in or they'll be screwed when it's discovered they've breached health and safety regulations; and if people start going from pub to pub as they start to close, then that's fine once the people are sober, and if they're not, then again the bouncers won't let them in.

Rabies

Bradidup wrote:

The only prob with stggering times is that the crowd would move to the pub/club that stays open the latest!!, it wont work either.

Not really. Even drunk people know their fill. Some will move on, but many would go home.

If 24hr bars ever got the green light in Ireland there would be a long period of adjustment, but I think it would work out in the end.

Yesterday I was working, started at 3pm and finished at 6am. We didn't stop serving until 4:30am. As normal after a weekend night we went to late bar to have a few drinks. If there wasn't 24hr bars, we could have gone for a few social drinks after hours

By 3:30am our bar was about 1/3 full. The manager decided to close at 4:30am, he gave people 30min notice. No one ordered rounds of drinks or a few shots for the road before the closing. They just moved on to where ever else was open or jumped in the one of the many taxis that are looking for a fare and went home.

There is never a problem to get a taxi in this city after hours because everone isn't thrown out of bars and clubs at the same time. No big queues for food. Rarely drunken fights on the street.

limklad

Rabies wrote:

Do you think Ireland will ever introduce a 24hr alcohol serving license? .

No, I am not against it.

Rabies wrote:

Would it increase alcohol problems.
I think it would be a novelty at first, but most people would still finish up at 3-4am and go home.

In the beginning yes, but it will fade down. If they (the pols) are worried about alcoholics, then that argument is that alcoholics will find drink anywhere. That is a poor excuse for not having 24hr opening.

Most problems I see is when the pubs and nightclubs close down on time. Everyone is hang around, fights starts, cost of damage to property.

There is one particular garda who shuts all the pubs and nightclub at the same time and like clockwork, trouble ensues. The other guards allow the pubs to stagger the closing times, this allows everyone to go home when the taxi arrives back into town to take the next batch. I have often been in pubs up to 6 in the morning. I would not consider it a novelty as we folks in the country are already used to it.

The biggest problem is drink driving. People are stay at home drinking there which is 24hr opening, as long the booze is kept in stock.

limklad

Bradidup wrote:

In places like Ennis 1/3 of the pubs have gone bust since the smoking ban became inforced and thats because of a drop in patrons, you hardly think theres going to be a mad rush back to them if they keep their doors open 24 hours!!!

Are you sure it is the smoking ban?I did noticed the following
1/. The price of drink also increased :eek:
2/. Huge increased in cost of living. :mad:
3/. Increased costs of everything else.
4/. Poor payrises.:eek:
5/. Mortgate!!:(
3/. bigger crack down on drink driving.

My smoking friends agree with the smoking ban, many of them tried to give up smoking before the ban, but failed once they got to the pub. Other remaining smoker found that they could use the same clothes the following night in a different pub. There is not much smells on the clothers when they smoke outside.

CerebralCortex

guildofevil wrote:

No. the café bar idea was a watered down version of what needs to be done and yes, vested interests, i.e. publicans killed it. McDowell made no attempt to get rid of pub closing times, which is a much greater cause of our binge drinking culture than our crowded pubs.

Publicans don't want deregulation because that would mean they would have competition and they like the little cartel they call the vintners federation. Most of them don't want 24 hour drinking either, because they are making a killing from our binge drinking culture.

Imagine how much money they make at last orders. People who don't want the night to end, force down more drink than is wise and are kicked out into the night. Then the the publican can just close the pub and count the cash, without having to deal with the drunken mess those people are going to be in, once those drinks hit them.

If they didn't have the excuse of pub closing laws to help them kick people out into the street, they might actually have to let people drink at their own pace. Those people might drink less, or of they don't, they might still be on the premises when they get out of control. All that and later nights? No. The publicans have it sweet, just the way it is.

So, FlutterinBantam, are you still against 24 hour drinking? If you are, can you please tell me why the current system is better than one which would allow pubs to close when they please rather than at a mandated time.

I agree with this I have worked at door security in both night clubs and pubs and I have also grown up in a college town and it always seems like there is never enough time for people to knock back drinks. Its like a frantic race from a pub to a night club just so they can get the drinks in. I think guildofevil in effect has pointed out how regimented our drinking habits are like and how certain things have to be done to a certain extent there is no room for creativity when it comes to socialising.

Zillah

I must say, kudos to guildofevil, excellent logic and a fine display of temperance.

FlutterinBantam: Your posts are without a doubt some of the more crude, annoying and useless I have seen on boards. Be ashamed.

Rabies

I have noticed over the past few weeks that the customers in any of the late closing or 24hr bars I go to are mainly hospitality staff going for a few after work.

Not too many of the general public, sure ya get a few but not as many as I expected.

It is weird, there is isn't the expectation to knock back your drinks before you leave or have a shot or two for the road. No rush and the drinking is paced better.

Also, over here to have a bar license you must serve food. No need to run for McDs, Abrakadabra or where ever. Get some pub food while you drink, doesn't matter the time, they have to serve it This cuts down on people crowding around the nearest take away after hours.

Dave!

AFAIK that law about serving food was in place in Ireland previously... dunno why it's gone now. It's certainly handy when they serve food! Saves alot of hastle