SU Elections

rugbug86

one thing i would like to see on a manifesto (apologies if its already there, i haven't had a proper chance to read through them yet) is the issue of online voting - if a union can get the ball rolling in september, or july when they start, then it might be feasable for the su elections in the following year.

Amz

That's a good idea, if it could be placed on the portal page or something.

rugbug86

yeah, there's a few threads about it on life already.

its to facilitate students who are on intra and may not make it back, or are on placement, or on erasmus. they have just as big a right to be represented.

i'm lucky, i'll make it to dcu in time to vote. but what about my friend who's on intra in philadelphia?!!

rugbug86

oh and it is possible. i dont know what experience anyone currently has with the present voting system, but as far as i remember its a passworded system and its based on student numbers. i presume it could work on your own username/password.

no different to a poll really. sure just run the election on life!

gizmo

How odd, while over talking to the lads in CSD today the issue of online voting came up when I mentioned those students on INTRA. It's something that has interested me for awhile as I believe that we would have a much higher "turn out" if online voting was an option. I'll talk more about it later and we can get some feedback here and on Life.

By the way people...use Life.dcu.ie

griffdlk

Yeah, theres quite the large thread already on online voting and all the conspiracy theorists going mad at the thought of it!

As for Al Flanagan's hair ... he raised rakes of money for charity shaving it off ... but like samson has it sapped his strength?

Lil_cian

There was a (rather long) thread about this on RB's boards a couple of years ago, when someone proposed it for similar reasons, and Colmmac went through(at an awful lot of length) the reasons why e-voting is either A: not at all private or B:not at all secure. 90% of it went over my head, since web type stuff isn't really my forte, but it all sounded right, and all the other techie types agreed with him.

The toher thing is, that even if we could get a normal system secure, there's constitutional issues, and one very large issue with security, that being life.dcu.ie, and the fact that it doesn't use secure logins. Because of that, I could go around, collect everyones log in details, without much trouble, and then go give myself a hundred or so votes. Which would almost certainly make the difference in any election.
The constitution says that voting can only do by presenting either a student card or a letter from registery as well. Obviusly, doing either of these things is rather difficult if you want to vote over the web...

rugbug86

not if you have to put the info from your student card in, ie the number on the bottom.

and using separate passwords to the "normal" ones, which people couldn't get off hacking life. which, speaking of, would be a v. childish and immature thing to do.

Evangelion

I'dbe curious how you'd go about collecting peoples login details?

As private goes, no it isn't, but then it would be your choice to vote online.
Secure, hard to argue this one, except why would any one go to the effort to hack the system? the elections result in CV padding, theres no real power there. (did the SU try to ban coke the other year?)

rugbug86

Evangelion wrote:

I'dbe curious how you'd go about collecting peoples login details?

You would have to ask Lil_cian that. I presume it'd be the same way that some people hacked onto life.

Evangelion wrote:

As private goes, no it isn't, but then it would be your choice to vote online.

there's ways to make it private. the current system has its downfalls. i honestly don't see the problems. in fact some students offered to help with this on life. its an issue that i have raised every year of my 4 years in dcu. nothing has been done. online voting is the way to go!

Evangelion wrote:

Secure, hard to argue this one, except why would any one go to the effort to hack the system?

ask the people who hacked in a few months ago

Evangelion wrote:

the elections result in CV padding, theres no real power there.

beg to differ here, i've seen some of the differences made by SU's in my time here. Including some changes that people won't notice/hear of.

Evangelion wrote:

(did the SU try to ban coke the other year?)

yea, there was a motion at UC last year. it was shot down though.

Lil_cian

Evangelion wrote:

I'dbe curious how you'd go about collecting peoples login details?

As private goes, no it isn't, but then it would be your choice to vote online.
Secure, hard to argue this one, except why would any one go to the effort to hack the system? the elections result in CV padding, theres no real power there. (did the SU try to ban coke the other year?)

If you wanted the presidental position, it would be well worth doing. Look at the amount of effort people put into campaigning, why do all that when you could vote for other people.

I'm not going to point out how you'd grab people's login details (for the rather obvius reason that I log in myself all the time, and I'd prefer people didn't steal my password), but it has nothing ot do with how people got in the backdoor of life, that was merely someone leaving a really, incredibly stupid password.

And as for there being ways to make it more private, there are a few, but there's only so far you can go. If you make it secure, you lose a certain amount of privacy, as being able to track how each person voted is important from a security side of things(or at least from my understanding of it, as I say, I'm no mad techie)

And rugbug86, the number at the bottom of someone's student card is rather easy to predict...

Evangelion

rugbug86 wrote:

i've seen some of the differences made by SU's in my time here. Including some changes that people won't notice/hear of.

I kinda generalised the SU. I have to say good work is nearly always done by the Welfare Officer. Its the president that realy seems to be the useless one. having been and gone from DCU, I've yet to see a President better than poor.


I dont know the details about the privacy of electronic voting. but even if it wasnt, it would be a nice choice to have there. a public vote for convience, or go down to the ballot box

gizmo

Evangelion wrote:

I kinda generalised the SU. I have to say good work is nearly always done by the Welfare Officer. Its the president that realy seems to be the useless one. having been and gone from DCU, I've yet to see a President better than poor.

Actually the President handles many personal cases. This is on top of sitting on such important bodies as Governing Body and Academic Council, two of the most important committees on Campus. As for your comment regarding a President being anything other than poor well it's widely agreed that Charlene is one of the best Presidents we've had in the past few years.

Evangelion

For the first semester last year there were a lot of comments going around that were contrary to that. maybe in 2nd it changed, i wasnt paying much attention, i had a project to do .

Sitting on such councils doesnt reflect work put in. I say the welfare officer does the most work, because the people who go for this position seem to have a better work ethic, not that their responsiblities are greater.

Its a pity these avents still affect me, like the threat of external members of clubs being at a max of 25%. I duno who this relates to, but i imagine its an elected position

Will

so uhm who is going to be giving out the nicest lollipops?
those people will get my vote

Crucifix

Wilburt wrote:

so uhm who is going to be giving out the nicest lollipops?
those people will get my vote

Last year, Alan Flannagan had ones that turned your tongue blue.
It's a crime he didn't get in

cooker3

If the irish government can spend 50 million euro and not come up with a good secure E voting system, I really doubt the SU can come up with a better system. I would be shocked if it wasn't hacked

griffdlk

gizmo wrote:

Actually the President handles many personal cases. This is on top of sitting on such important bodies as Governing Body and Academic Council, two of the most important committees on Campus. As for your comment regarding a President being anything other than poor well it's widely agreed that Charlene is one of the best Presidents we've had in the past few years.

I thought Sarah was a good president with very little support from either her education or welfare officer and as such found it difficult to get her ideas forced through!

*awaits backlash*

gizmo

Interesting. So what are your favorite lollies folks?

Evangelion, the only complaint I heard in the first semester was regarding the Rip Off DCU campaign but outside of that everything else has been extremely positive.

And no, of course sitting on them does not reflect work but getting results at them does and from what I've heard their performance has been excellent. There's also things like Disciplinary Committee but again a lot of the stuff deals with personal issues which you more than likely wouldn't hear about it hence many people don't actually know about the stuff they do.

rugbug86

Evangelion wrote:

Sitting on such councils doesnt reflect work put in. I say the welfare officer does the most work, because the people who go for this position seem to have a better work ethic, not that their responsiblities are greater.

I've sat on the SU exec, Science & Health convenor (Not conveyor gizmo! ).

I've seen the number of committee's that the president sits on. I've seen all of the personal cases they have to deal with. I've seen everything the president has to heal with. Its not an easy job and I have utmost admiration for Simon, Alan and Gary - what they're proposing to do is something that I could never, ever do.

Yes, the welfare officer deals with personal cases. But so did I as convenor, so does the president, so does every single person who sits on the SU exec.

The president sits on the most committees, so thats where a lot of their time goes. As you said yourself, this doesn't nescessarily mean that they do the most work, but so much time gets put into these meetings. I'm on the life.dcu.ie committee this year, and last night Charlene sent an email at 8, still working. Surely this shows the dedication required of the president?

And yes, I will stand up and say that in my 4 years in dcu, i think that this exec has been the most kick-ass exec yet. So congrats to them all, they've done themselves more than proud

And...

griffdlk wrote:

I thought Sarah was a good president with very little support from either her education or welfare officer and as such found it difficult to get her ideas forced through!

i beg to differ. Yvonne was an education officer who was more than capable and i know this through dealing with her in both a professional and personal manner. You can't compare the welfare officer that year either - it was a non-sabattical position with a full time student in the position. It was always going to be hard.

rugbug86

gizmo wrote:

Interesting. So what are your favorite lollies folks?

Chupa Chubbs, Strawberry

Aww heck, any strawberry lolly! (or those ones the snowboarders had at the beer pong... yum!)

gizmo

Oh, two votes for Strawberry....I'm still partial to the 'ol Fizzy Cola lollies though.

As for the e-voting Rob, you forget that the infrastructure is almost all in place on CSD's side and would only need a bit of code to get working. From what I can gather going over the proposal the only fault may be when adding the paper and e-votes together and any possible difficulties which may arise when proportional representation kicks in. Again its something that would need A LOT of consideration before even going for it, not to mention the possible constitutional implications.

As for the rest of my visit to CSD today I had a word with the folks over there regarding the state of the timetable system and they've referred me to a guy in SysOps who I'll have a word with soon and see if the problem is on their side or the Registry's.

rugbug86

yea, i love the fizzy kola ones too. they're a nice shape.

phantom_lord

robnubis wrote:

I like the method of voting by who's hotter on their poster

standard

rugbug86

robnubis wrote:

I like the method of voting by who's hotter on their poster

phantom_lord wrote:

standard

and you say gizmo wants to win? :P;)

griffdlk

rugbug86 wrote:

And...

i beg to differ. Yvonne was an education officer who was more than capable and i know this through dealing with her in both a professional and personal manner. You can't compare the welfare officer that year either - it was a non-sabattical position with a full time student in the position. It was always going to be hard.

I found Yvonne quite aloof ... perhaps your personal knowledge of her gives you a greater insight into her workings but for those of us without such a close relationship she appeared somewhat unapproachable.

As for Deirdre ... yes she was non-sabattical but my point was that Sarah didn't have the same support as Charlene and having only one other sabat illustrates this.

From my experience this year Eoin has been the outstanding performer ... the one really trying to get people's opinions and taking on alot more then his job spec demands without attempting to gain praise at every avenue!

Anyway this is about this years elections ... anyone at the hustings?
If so, would anyone be kind enough to break down the bits and bobs (no pun intended) of who was great and why and who was the next Richie Greene?

rugbug86

check your u2u's!!

Yea, sarah did do a great job, not taking away from that at all.

And yes, Eoin has been brill.

griffdlk

Thanking your good self Miss Sullivan:)

rugbug86

no probs

public_enemy

Online voting seems like a bad idea to me. I have to agree with Cian and Rob. I just don't see any way that it would be secure.

As for this year's exec, they could be worse I guess. The events have all been pretty good and everyone who's dealt with Eoin has been full of praise. I'm sure they all work hard enough at whatever it is they do.

Personally, however, I think I'll just remember them for the debacle that was the "Rip Off DCU" campaign.

StickyMcGinty

public_enemy wrote:

Online voting seems like a bad idea to me. I have to agree with Cian and Rob. I just don't see any way that it would be secure.

would be a great step for the SU to get online voting on the go, security wouldnt be an issue at all, no more than someone who looks kinda like ye taking your student card and casting a vote on your behalf

i'm not a fan of the SU at all, but i have to say its getting better than when i started going to DCU.

Lil_cian

VinnyL wrote:

would be a great step for the SU to get online voting on the go, security wouldnt be an issue at all, no more than someone who looks kinda like ye taking your student card and casting a vote on your behalf

i'm not a fan of the SU at all, but i have to say its getting better than when i started going to DCU.

It's an awful lot easier to notice a missing student card than it is to notice someone has used your online vote.
Plus that could count for maybe, 2, votes. With online voting, you could steal hundreds without that much difficulty.

public_enemy

VinnyL wrote:

security wouldnt be an issue at all, no more than someone who looks kinda like ye taking your student card and casting a vote on your behalf

I couldn't disagree more.

StickyMcGinty

look, the security could be tightened up 100 ways, thats what a rollout is for. obviously they're not just gonna lash it out for this years elections, but aim for next year. Getting students voting in bigger numbers would be good for everyone involved and would definately lead to a elevated atmosphere come election time.

I don't understand how a secure voting system cant be put together in 12 months, its very achieveable.

anyone know what the turnout was last year?

VinnyL

VinnyL wrote:

look, the security could be tightened up 100 ways, thats what a rollout is for. obviously they're not just gonna lash it out for this years elections, but aim for next year. Getting students voting in bigger numbers would be good for everyone involved and would definately lead to a elevated atmosphere come election time.

Would the cost be justifiable? The argument that it would make it easier to vote is sound, but will only help if students wish to vote. One thing to remember is that apathy will always be within any type of union.

Lil_cian

VinnyL wrote:

look, the security could be tightened up 100 ways, thats what a rollout is for. obviously they're not just gonna lash it out for this years elections, but aim for next year. Getting students voting in bigger numbers would be good for everyone involved and would definately lead to a elevated atmosphere come election time.

I don't understand how a secure voting system cant be put together in 12 months, its very achieveable.

anyone know what the turnout was last year?

about 1200 I think, could be wrong about that though.
And look how much the Irish goverment has spent, and how long they've taken, and they haven't got ****ing anywhere. Do we really want to throw our money down a similar black hole?

StickyMcGinty

Myth wrote:

Would the cost be justifiable? The argument that it would make it easier to vote is sound, but will only help if students wish to vote. One thing to remember is that apathy will always be within any type of union.

true, but the idea is to make it easier for the student to vote, not to be concerned about who they vote for. On the cost matter, i dont think it would be unjustified if the costs were reasonable.

it'd be worth a trail phase anyway, i'm on intra from next week and i wouldnt mind voting but theres no chance of me getting to DCU

StickyMcGinty

Lil_cian wrote:

about 1200 I think, could be wrong about that though.
And look how much the Irish goverment has spent, and how long they've taken, and they haven't got ****ing anywhere. Do we really want to throw our money down a similar black hole?

i knew the eVoting fiasco was behind most of the scepticism here..

so you reckon that because the government couldn't do it on a much bigger scale and under a completely different scenario that DCU shouldnt even give it a trial run?

Lil_cian

VinnyL wrote:

i knew the eVoting fiasco was behind most of the scepticism here..

so you reckon that because the government couldn't do it on a much bigger scale and under a completely different scenario that DCU shouldnt even give it a trial run?

No, my scepticism is based on comments by people who know an awful lot about this web security stuff, And giving it a trial in anything bar class rep elections will quite possibly end up with the wrong candidate taking office, which is something that I really have a problem with. And Class rep elections would be useless as a trial as no one would be bothered enough to try to break in to them.

public_enemy

Getting a secure system isn't impossible or anything, I just wouldn't have any faith in it ever happening. Life.dcu.ie could be very easily made secure, but nothing ever changes. Security is the primary concern in any online voting system and I think it would be something that would require a considerable amount of time and effort to get right.

StickyMcGinty

public_enemy wrote:

Getting a secure system isn't impossible or anything, I just wouldn't have any faith in it ever happening. Life.dcu.ie could be very easily made secure, but nothing ever changes. Security is the primary concern in any online voting system and I think it would be something that would require a considerable amount of time and effort to get right.

yep i'd agree with that. that's why next years elections would be a good target.

Lil_cian wrote:

No, my scepticism is based on comments by people who know an awful lot about this web security stuff,

so your basing your scepticism on other people's comments, any of whom might not have a clue themselves?

i reckon its worth a trial run anyway. of course security would be paramount, but i think such a system could be implemented in a year no problem, and would be a huge boost for the SU

Lil_cian

VinnyL wrote:

yep i'd agree with that. that's why next years elections would be a good target.



so your basing your scepticism on other people's comments, any of whom might not have a clue themselves?

i reckon its worth a trial run anyway. of course security would be paramount, but i think such a system could be implemented in a year no problem, and would be a huge boost for the SU

I'm basing my scepticism on the comments of an ex-admin off RB who's very well known, irl, for knowing a huge amount about web security, and specifically about E-voting. He probably knows just a little bit more than me or you.

Evangelion

Gizmo: I could easily be getting Charlene and Sarah was it mixed up, the years do tend to blurr together.

rugbug86 wrote:

I've sat on the SU exec, Science & Health convenor (Not conveyor gizmo! ).

I remeber you. You personally came over to me to ask for my vote.
Never got our computer room back :mad:

rugbug86

Did ya check downstairs? All the computers in the downstairs lab were changed after a meeting with the head of the faculty. There were extra computers put in. And a printer (which worked when I got it!) And I got valid reasons for why the computer lab was taken.

It was never the science computers, it was the nurses, so they took them to their new building. New computer labs in the H block can now only be used for nurses. I asked if the lab could be opened for science students, i was told that the computers couldn't deal with the volume (wtf?!!). that computer room in the X block was also belonging to the nurses, so it was theirs to do whatever they wanted with - in their case they rented it out to people for a lab.

An agreement was also put in place for certain courses (maths science and actuarial maths) to use computers in CA.

I asked if all courses would have access to these computers, i was told no. And also asked how we were expected to do work on the crappy computers in the library. The faculty had no idea how bad the library computers were, so they started to talk to the library and see what they could do.

So no, i never got your computer room back. But i got one done up and opened nearly all the time, as a pose to just when lecturers used it in labs.

Alfla

Hey all,

Sorry for the relative lateness of hopping up on boards, I'm not going to lie, I just set up an account, but I will reply as best I can to any comments in relation to the elections.

I won't post a large rigmarole of my manifesto when you can just as easily hop on to my shiny shiny website www.alanflanagan.com for the main info. There's also nifty pictures of me with my Smedias, Ryan Tubridy and at the Hustings yesterday aftenoon.

I know the issue of online voting has come up (as distinct from e-voting which is a whole other barrel of kettles), and it was looked into by last year's Union Exec. The bottom line, as far as I know, is that it's not possible. It's just not secure enough to work. I think we need to get the student population motivated before we start just throwing ourselves on the mercy of technology.

Just to expand on one section of my manifesto, the services in DCU need to be hugely improved. DCU has the highest percentage of international students of any third-level institution in the country, yet a new report by the SALIS (languages school) office shows that international students are being all but ignored by DCU. They pay more fees, have more difficulties and yet the International Office and the Union are not helping them in any way. There are NO free English language classes for international students, and as someone who spent the last semester in France, I think it's disgraceful. DCU are not contributing to the academic or social wellbeing of its international students and this needs to be changed.

I'll post up more info on any part of my manifesto, just ask.

gizmo

Right, I'll address some of the points regarding online voting made so far...

The best way to look at this is to compare real life with the online equivalent.

Real life Voting
Go up to polling station
Show student card
Get ballot
Fill in ballot
Put in sealed box
Not opened until count
Count occurs, much security no interfering
Results produced

Online Voting
Go to student portal page
Sign in
Click on ballot
Fill in ballot
Submit
Stored server side in CSD
Email generated letting the student know they have voted
Name and vote details detached and the former scrapped
Count takes place server side so no interference
Results produced

As you can see there are really only a few areas where there may be issues however realisticlly there are even less. Someone suggested to me that a candidate may go around and try and get peoples login details for their portal pages. I'm sorry, but just who would go ahead and give these details out to someone? Also, what candidate would honestly risk the success of their campaign on such a foolish stunt, never mind the possibilty of action being taken by the college if found out.

Regarding the security of the logins themselves, well firstly secure logins for Life would need to be introduced to eliminate any worry of peoples student logins being procured through any underhanded means.

Next up is the notification that you have indeed voted. The email would do this however there is a point at which someones vote is tied directly to their student details, not an ideal situation but still one that shouldn't hold such a system back especially given that it would only exist server side and away from everyone bar the CSD.

The final issue is the efficency with which the online votes and the paper votes can be combined during the count and the risk it may pose to proportional representation. Again, the best way to examine this would be to introduce the scheme on a phased basis. For instance in its first year the scheme may only be available to those students on INTRA and work placement. That way the scheme would only be available to a limited number of students but it would be those students who require it the most that would benefit initially.

This is of course, just an idea but I honestly feel if properly implemented it could be a massive benefit to increasing the level of interaction between the student body and the Union.

sunnyjim

Alfla,

How do you think the Careers Office serves the students? Do you think it does a great job, is it underfunded or is it a poor service?

Whats your view on the DCU Sports Academy? It seems very high on the list of priorities for DCU - do you think it deserves all it gets? Should it get more?

On Campus Events - It was a great year this year how can you expand on them? Any new ideas?

And finally, do you have any preference on who gains positions in the SU this year?

sunnyjim

Also, what candidate would honestly risk the success of their campaign on such a foolish stunt, never mind the possibilty of action being taken by the college if found out.

Man... Your so wrong. About half the people in DCU don't give a **** about who is SU pres - I'm sure quite a few of them could be swayed with a few euro. Literally.

cooker3

gizmo wrote:

As you can see there are really only a few areas where there may be issues however realisticlly there are even less. Someone suggested to me that a candidate may go around and try and get peoples login details for their portal pages. I'm sorry, but just who would go ahead and give these details out to someone? Also, what candidate would honestly risk the success of their campaign on such a foolish stunt, never mind the possibilty of action being taken by the college if found out.

I think your underestimating the stupidity of people in giving out details and also how much certain people would want it. They could easily get a friend to do it for them etc

gizmo

sunnyjim wrote:

Man... Your so wrong. About half the people in DCU don't give a **** about who is SU pres - I'm sure quite a few of them could be swayed with a few euro. Literally.

But that kind of bribary could be applied to the existing voting scheme also.

cooker3 wrote:

I think your underestimating the stupidity of people in giving out details and also how much certain people would want it. They could easily get a friend to do it for them etc

You really think someone is going to give out their student details to someone in order to get a vote? In all honesty if a possible candidate was stupid enough to try and pull it off I could nearly guarantee you they wouldn't be intelligent enough to pull it off without being caught.

On the other hand, why are we looking at introducing online voting? While getting people who generally wouldn't be interested in making the effort to vote, it would primarily be aimed at getting those students who ARE interested but who simply can't make it due to INTRA and work placement. So, what easy solution can we use...how about holding the elections earlier in the semester? That way you would include the vast majority of the above students while also making running in the elections more appealable as people will more than likely be under less stress due to college work.