Any Creationists here?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Jakkass wrote:

Read the piece I took from the writings of Peter, which is in the Bible.

God is a facinating being and He has created a facinating world, that is the way He intended it.

I choose not to take it literally, It is clearly a metaphor and the product of an LSD induced daze.:p

Jakkass wrote:

Read the piece I took from the writings of Peter, which is in the Bible.

God is a facinating being and He has created a facinating world, that is the way He intended it.

So he intended us to evolve from apes?

philologos

sean_keevey wrote:

So he intended us to evolve from apes?

No, I'm saying that it is a coincidence that we share that part of our genetic code, although if you were to be particular about it it doesn't infact say how He created our world. The animals were made first, then the Humans.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Jakkass wrote:

No, I'm saying that it is a coincidence that we share that part of our genetic code.

By creationist standards, that's quite a coincidence.

You say it ridiculous to believe that we might have naturally evolved to where we are now "unaided" and by coincidence,

and yet you see as coincidence the sharing of infinitely complex DNA between two completely unrelated (or so you would have us believe) creatures.

philologos

I don't have to prove anything to you. Apparently you think I do. This is the way I have taken the word of my God. I see Him as all powerful and all knowing, He can do anything, if he can create the world, if he can seperate the Red Sea, he most certainly can make humans similar to apes in DNA makeup.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Jakkass wrote:

I don't have to prove anything to you. Apparently you think I do. This is the way I have taken the word of my God. I see Him as all powerful and all knowing, He can do anything, if he can create the world, if he can seperate the Red Sea, he most certainly can make humans similar to apes in DNA makeup.

Mate I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, I'm not trying to preach to you or anything. Obviously I understand that faith by definition is believing in something of which there is no proof, and no you don't have to prove anything to me as your beliefs are your own.

Son Goku

Jakkass wrote:

God created the world with his own hands, thats exactly what I mean.

it could have been more than 6 days but it wasn't millions of years.

That's alright, since you aren't setting out to prove yourself. You should however bear in mind that evolution did set out to prove itself and has gathered a lot of empirical evidence in its favour. It is not "just a theory". If you don't accept that it's fine, but you shouldn't say it has no physical evidence, when it is in fact built upon inference from physical evidence.

philologos

Son Goku wrote:

It is not "just a theory". If you don't accept that it's fine, but you shouldn't say it has no physical evidence, when it is in fact built upon inference from physical evidence.

That's your take on it. I think there may be some things that may be seen as evidence that exist, but infact they are just coincidential. I don't mind what you or other people think. I'm confident in my God, and thats all that matters to me behind it all.

Son Goku

Jakkass wrote:

That's your take on it.

No, it isn't. It may be my take on it that it is correct, but it is not my take on it that it is based on inference from evidence. It is based on inference from evidence, I agree with the conclusion, you do not. However evolutionary biology is still a evidentially based science.

Jakkass wrote:

I think there may be some things that may be seen as evidence that exist, but infact they are just coincidential.

Remember that the evidence you're exposed to is just a few canonical examples that don't rely on advanced dating and statistical techniques. The actual evidence and observations it's based on could fill libraries. It'd be impossible to read even 0.01% of the evidence in a human lifetime.
However you are free to disagree, but don't paint it as some random untested idea thought up out of the blue.

bonkey

Jakkass wrote:

Oh and to bring this topic back on topic. Darwins theory on Evolution is just that, a theory.

This comment suggests one of the following:

1) You don't know what a scientific theory is.
2) You do know what a scientific theory is, but are deliberately misrepresenting it to reduce its stature.

I would suggest that neither option is particularly adding support to your case.

Either you are criticising science without having a good understanding of what it is you are criticising, or you do have a good understanding and are deliberately misrepresenting science to fool those who may not.

It requires the same amount of faith to believe in that than in Creationism.

As Son Goku has pointed out, the theory of gravity is also "just that", a theory.

Do you believe that it takes the same amount of faith to believe in gravity as it does in Creationism?

jc

bonkey

Jakkass wrote:

That's your take on it.

Its the take of science.

Y'know - the stuff you trust your life to every time you step inside a building, ride in a car, go to hospital....

I think there may be some things that may be seen as evidence that exist, but infact they are just coincidential.

One could say the same of your belief in God.

I don't mind what you or other people think. I'm confident in my God, and thats all that matters to me behind it all.

If you don't mind what other people think, why do you go to so much effort to try and explain to them that they are wrong because their belief is different to yours?

philologos

I'm not claiming they are wrong. Not one bit infact, if I recall correctly this thread was created with the intent to attack the beliefs of Creationists. I was merely claiming that Evolution is also a theory, so it is also in a sense a belief, just like being a Christian is essentially. The Big Bang also requires quite a lot of belief and faith. I'm merely showing my point of view because people have asked for it, not because I'm trying to prove anyone wrong. I hope to show the virtues of Christianity through my actions, rather than through words, as I know I will never convince anyone through words.

Son Goku

Jakkass wrote:

I was merely claiming that Evolution is also a theory, so it is also in a sense a belief, just like being a Christian is essentially. The Big Bang also requires quite a lot of belief and faith.

To be honest, you've made it clear that you aren't trying to prove anything so I'm not attempting to prove evolution to you in return. However your use of the word "theory" is very misguided. Gravity is also a theory, yet I doubt you'd come out with anything like "gravity is just a theory".

If the Big Bang requires a lot of faith and belief, then so does gravity.

Do you think gravity requires faith and belief?
If the answer is yes, then you're being consistent. If it's no, then you're being overly harsh on evolution and the Big Bang.
The word "theory" in science denotes a very well tested idea, it is not synonymous with its vernacular meaning.

The Big Bang for instance has recently had a ten-year study completed by the WMAP satellite, which attempted to gather evidence against the Big Bang. This is not the hallmark of something taken on faith.

philologos

Son Goku wrote:

If it's no, then you're being overly harsh on evolution and the Big Bang.

This thread is being overly harsh on religion, asking us to explain why we believe Creationism to be true, almost asking proof from us, and apart from that ridiculing us when we give an answer to it. This thread was intentionally made to find Creationists and insult their beliefs basically. I'm fed up of this Christian-bashing, I can't explain it to you, theres no point in even requesting answers to questions that I simply can't answer for you. There's a leap of faith involved in religion. Although I'd advise you all to give it a chance before you start attacking it, I know that won't happen.

When you have a legitimate question, that is about the way we practise or what is written in the Book I will answer you.

Son Goku

Jakkass wrote:

This thread is being overly harsh on religion, asking us to explain why we believe Creationism to be true, almost asking proof from us, and apart from that ridiculing us when we give an answer to it. This thread was intentionally made to find Creationists and insult their beliefs basically. I'm fed up of this Christian-bashing, I can't explain it to you, theres no point in even requesting answers to questions that I simply can't answer for you. There's a leap of faith involved in religion. Although I'd advise you all to give it a chance before you start attacking it.

When you have a legitimate question, that is about the way we practise or what is written in the Book I will answer you.

I've said several times that I didn't want proof and I've yet to attack Christianity. I specifically said I wouldn't try to prove anything to you or ask for proof in return.
I was only criticising your use of the word theory, not your faith.
The only question I asked you was:
Do you think gravity requires faith and belief?
Which has nothing to do with justifying Creationism or Christianity.

How was anything I did Chrisitan bashing? I mean, come on.

philologos

I'm talking about the thread in general. And yes I believe in gravity. However I'm not being harsh about Evolution or indeed the Big Bang. The Big Bang requires just as big a leap in faith as Christianity. There is no complete proof of evolution as yet, although it seems that they have made progress in some respects. The Genesis account doesn't mention how Creationism occurred, which does open to possibilities that Evolution could have occurred. But I utterly reject, as a result of my faith, that it took place over millions of years.

bonkey

Jakkass wrote:

This thread is being overly harsh on religion, asking us to explain why we believe Creationism to be true, almost asking proof from us,

Is asking proof so unreasonable?

If creationism is correct, then a huge quantity of what science has explained from (Son Goku's favourite) electroweak symmetry breaking through how your microwave oven works, how nuclear reactors generate electricity, and so forth is all based on incorrect assumptions.

The creationist stance is that all of this stuff is wrong...but can offer no reason as to why what we build based on it works despite it being fundamentally and utterly wrong.

Is it so unreasonable to ask for an explanation?

Is the explanation just that "God made it that way"? That God created the universe to look and behave exactly like one which has an expansionary event in its deep past?

and apart from that ridiculing us when we give an answer to it.

What answer? THe only answer appears to be "yes, thats what I believe and therefore all of your evidence-based reasoning is wrong...of and you're damned, and might as well top yourself if you don't believe in the Christian God"

This thread was intentionally made to find Creationists and insult their beliefs basically.

So you reported it?

I can't explain it to you,

Finally an answer I can respect. You believe science is wrong, but cannot explain why.

There's a leap of faith involved in religion.

Sure there is.

Bear in mind, however, that there are people who have religious belief who also believe that the universe is as old as science says it is, that evolutionary theory is a pretty-much sound explanation of the process that brought us about.

Although I'd advise you all to give it a chance before you start attacking it, I know that won't happen.

So while Christian-bashing annoys you, atheist-and-agnostic bashing is just fine apparently.

When you have a legitimate question, that is about the way we practise or what is written in the Book I will answer you.

And thats what it boils down to, isn't it.

The charter says that non-Christians are welcome to come and ask their questions. They come, they ask their questions, then are told that this is not what they should be doing, that they can't understand anyway, and that when they stop asking the difficult questions they'll be welcome.

When I was younger, I was encouraged to question my faith by my religious leaders. I did so, and the result was that I asked questions that my faith could not answer. I find it interesting that here, we're being encouraged to only ask the right questions.

Personally, I don't see a return towards catechism and doctrination to be a good thing.

Son Goku

Jakkass wrote:

But I utterly reject, as a result of my faith, that it took place over millions of years.

Alright, cool. Remember though that gravity requires the same leap of faith that evolution and the Big Bang do, because it to is a theory. Unless you think it's only origin theories that are dubious where as something "functional" like gravity is in a different class.

bonkey

Jakkass wrote:

There is no complete proof of evolution as yet,

Nor of gravity....

philologos

bonkey wrote:

Is asking proof so unreasonable?

The creationist stance is that all of this stuff is wrong...but can offer no reason as to why what we build based on it works despite it being fundamentally and utterly wrong.

1. Well if you can accept that we cant answer every question, then I will give you what the belief is. You will also have to understand that it requires faith to understand our viewpoint.

2. Not totally true, I have already claimed that the way in which the world was created was never actually stated in the Bible. It just claims that God created it. It never says how.

Scofflaw

Jakkass wrote:

It is a theory. Give me one scrap of evidence of Evolution. Physical evidence that we evolved from slime to human form. I'd believe Creationism to that any day. The perfection of human kind and of the world around me is enough evidence for me to say that a God made us. A sophisticated lifeform does not come from slime.

And mighty oaks do not from little acorns grow, either, I take it.

Jakkass wrote:

That is also a belief. You say that you believe in factual things. But nobody has and probably never will find any other lifeform in this universe.

Rather early days yet to make such a claim.

Jakkass wrote:

You can mock my beliefs, I'm 100% confident in them. How about if I put this to you. There are more than 1 billion Christians in this world, surely Creationism is credible if that many people believe? That many people find it to be credible, that argument could be used for anything.

At a conservative estimate, that means 5.5 billion who don't...if we're going to do it on numbers.

cordially,
Scofflaw

So Glad

Woah, woah....Jakkass. I never started this thread to assault you and your fellow Christians. If you go back and read the first post it is quite subtle. I say "Any Creationists Here? If so, feel free to explain why and I'll do likewise.". I'm not here to assault anyone's beliefs, I'm just asking for your knowledge and reasons as to why you think so.

What drives me and many other people to press these issues contrary to your belief in such a tactful manner, is that these issues not only reside in your mind but are being pushed into children's as fact, when they are not able to distinguish truth from lies. It is also borderline offensive to people who have spent their whole lives doing study into evolution and who have libraries and warehouses of personal and publicly available information to which needs educated understanding and experience with which people who have no knowledge of such things are saying are lies, and are all big errors or accidents.

I'm not saying there is no God either. I believe in God. Just not the Bible, because as it is stated in the Bible "The human brain is the most deceptive" so why should I take every word in the Bible when it is just written by other men? I would believe that these men had visions of what they have written, although due to their misunderstandings and sheer intense difference of what they have been shown they had troubles witting what they saw correctly, thus some errors could have been produced. I think some parts of genesis could be errors of this kind.

philologos

Scofflaw wrote:

At a conservative estimate, that means 5.5 billion who don't...if we're going to do it on numbers.

cordially,
Scofflaw

A lot believe in Creationism in another form. Infact Muslims and Jews believe in the same method of Creationism. Adding that up to more than another billion anyway.
Hindus also believe in creationism, another 400 million.
Shinto? Confucianism? not entirely sure about those but I will research for you.

So Glad wrote:

What drives me and many other people to press these issues contrary to your belief in such a tactful manner, is that these issues not only reside in your mind but are being pushed into children's as fact, when they are not able to distinguish truth from lies.

Not that I have any children as of yet, but I'd like to think of that as my choice to teach them about Christianity or not. Infact I was thinking of teaching them about more than Christianity in a secular society such as this one. I stated earlier in this thread that I have researched into Islam also. However considering that I believe the word of Christ needs to be spread for those to be saved (Mark 15:15-16 I think anyway), I'd still make it a priority to teach them about Christianity. That's a difficult point you make, we believe it is the truth, so therefore there aren't any lies in the Bible in our view. I wouldn't force them to believe, I'd merely tell them about it and ask them to make up their own mind in relation to it. However I suppose deep down I would like for them to believe in it.

So Glad wrote:

Just not the Bible, because as it is stated in the Bible "The human brain is the most deceptive" so why should I take every word in the Bible when it is just written by other men?

The Torah (including Genesis through to Deuteronomy) was written from the word of God it is the Law, it is believed that Moses dictated that in his journeys through the desert. That is why I can take full faith and confidence in it. As for the rest of the Bible, they were also inspired by God, I believe it as God's word, and also that it has a good moral code throughout. I fail to see how someone could have created something fake and yet encourage people to be morally good in society. If only to teach them decent morals, it would be a good cause to teach them about Christianity.

Scofflaw

Jakkass wrote:

A lot believe in Creationism in another form. Infact Muslims and Jews believe in the same method of Creationism. Adding that up to more than another billion anyway.
Hindus also believe in creationism, another 400 million.
Shinto? Confucianism? not entirely sure about those but I will research for you.

Well, that is to take "Creationism" to be synonymous with "believing that the world was divinely created (in any sense whatsoever) rather than not", which is an almost impossibly lax definition.

There is a pretty standard use of the term "Creationist", and it applies to those who accept the account given in Genesis as literal fact. Since this is what you appear to believe, I am not really prepared to go with the very lax definition you are using to count people as being "of your belief".

By the usual usage of the term "Creationist", the majority of those who you describe as Creationists are nothing of the kind - the number of people who share your Creationist belief in the usual sense of the term numbers only in the hudreds of millions.

If you wish to argue that the idea of divine creation has the support you claim for it, I would obviously accept that. Further, I would certainly agree that, contrary to what some of my fellow atheists claim, there is absolutely nothing extraordinary about having such a belief - it is the normal human belief, both now and in the recorded past.

However, that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on whether the idea is either true, or even credible in the light of modern knowledge. The majority of people on earth have believed at various stages that the earth was flat, that the sky was a big blue ceiling, that everyone except their 'race' was clearly inferior (actually, I think that still applies), that only the sperm is important in conception, and several thousand other beliefs that we now find laughable. I can see that you exempt divine creation from the destruction-by-knowledge that has happened to these beliefs, but to me it smacks more than a little of special pleading to claim that this particular idea has special status.

Jakkass wrote:

The Torah (including Genesis through to Deuteronomy) was written from the word of God it is the Law, it is believed that Moses dictated that in his journeys through the desert. That is why I can take full faith and confidence in it. As for the rest of the Bible, they were also inspired by God, I believe it as God's word, and also that it has a good moral code throughout.

'Throughout' is a heck of a claim. Does it apply to David and Bathsheba? Lot's daughters? The fig tree?

I have to ask - have you read the whole Bible (literally cover to cover)?

Jakkass wrote:

I fail to see how someone could have created something fake and yet encourage people to be morally good in society.

There are more choices than that. Ordinary men could have writtendown the oral history of their people Israel, in all its contradictions, and with all its myths intact. Ordinary humans could have written down their accounts of the life of a great moral teacher, and got a certain amount of it wrong - although that of course puts us squarely into Lewis' trilemma.

Jakkass wrote:

If only to teach them decent morals, it would be a good cause to teach them about Christianity.

It would be a good idea to teach them morals. Not all morality is to be found in the Bible, however.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hindus also believe in creationism, another 400 million.

Their dispute with evolution is that it's too short a timeline - quite different from yours.

In any case son goku is right - gravity is "just a theory" too. Same as evolution.

Intelligent falling, anyone...?

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

This thread is being overly harsh on religion

Its all very well to say that Jakkass but what actually got people turning to challenge your post, and Creationism in general, is comments like this

"Darwins theory on Evolution is just that, a theory. It requires the same amount of faith to believe in that than in Creationism."

"It is a theory. Give me one scrap of evidence of Evolution. Physical evidence that we evolved from slime to human form."

"it could have been more than 6 days but it wasn't millions of years."

You can believe what ever the hell you like Jakkass, but if you are going to enter into the scientific realm and start posting nonsense about science then you are going to get a ton of replies because put simply other people read your posts and it would be a terrible shame if other people read what you wrote about evolution and came away thinking something along the lines of "so there is no support for evolution?"

There is a thread going on in Atheism forum about Kevin Myers who wrote an article in the Irish Times about how evolution just doesn't make sense, which seems to be entirely based on a Creationist book sent to him. Whats wrong with expressing an opinion? you may ask. The problem was that his article, just as your post, was riddled with inaccuracies about what evolution actually is. Needless to say he got a ton of emails and replies pointing this out, though I doubt he will listen.

You are of course free to post anything you like, but you should expect that if your posts misrepresent science you will get replies.

bonkey

Jakass wrote:

There are more than 1 billion Christians in this world, surely Creationism is credible if that many people believe?

Firstly, as Scofflaw pointed out, your 1 billion is in the minority. If you're going to make a claim of credibility based on numbers, the numbers say more people believe your interpretation is wrong then believe it is correct. Surely - by your own reasoning that must also be credible because so many people believe? Indeed, it should be more credible?

Secondly, it is incorrect to equate "Christian" and "Creationist" beyond the belief that God is the ultimate creator.

There are Christians who believe in the 6000-year-old earth (as per Ussher's timeline), created by God in 144 hours of the modern clock.

There are Christians who believe in the Big Bang model, a 14 (ish) billion-year-old universe, a 4.5 (ish) billion year old earth, evolution...who believe that the universe was created by God, but that since its creation it has followed the scientific model with the possible exception of intervention now-and-then by God to perform miracles, embody his son, and so forth.

There are a number of other Christian "origin beliefs" which one can identify, such as those of Old Earth Creationists, which are held to a lesser or larger extent.

And this is part of the problem that leads to the question originally posed by So Glad. Being a Christian does not require that you believe that every single word of the Gospel is complete truth. It does not require that you believe Genesis is a literal explanation rather than allegorical.

There are some Christians who do believe this. There are some Christians who believe in this literal truth and insist that anyone who doesn't isn't really a Christian, but only some sort of pseudo-Christian. They, as with everyone else, are perfectly entitled to hold those beliefs.

However...once you start equating "Christian" with "believes in the literal truth of Genesis", then it is not the case (or, if you prefer, it is most certainly not established to be the case) that there are more than 1 billion Christians in this world.

Adding in more religions does little to help your cause. The bible says that people are idiots for not believing in the Christian God - as is often pointed out to atheists. Its hard to argue that even though these non-Christians are idiots, we should lend credence to some of their beliefs because it agrees in part with an unknown quantity of Christians.

Indeed, there are (officially) just over 1 billion Catholics in the world. The official position of the Catholic church is that Genesis is allegorical, and that scientists are the ones equipped to best explain how we got from the beginning to here. Does their weight of numbers not count, especially considering that they are Christian?

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

You are of course free to post anything you like, but you should expect that if your posts misrepresent science you will get replies.

Speaking of which - Jakkass may also feel that far from merely defending science, we are also attacking Creationism religiously. He/she would be right.

We do this, I'm afraid, out of our experience of Creationists. While the scientific evidence against Creationism may be overwhelming, not one bit of it will be accepted as factually accurate by a Creationist so long as they believe that acceptance of the 'scientific' truth of Genesis is the defining mark of a Christian.

As long as you believe that it is necessary for you to believe that the Genesis accounts (either of them) contain the scientific truth about the origin of the world and life, it is necessary for you to distort and misrepresent science (from a scientist's perspective).

So, as part of our defence of science, we try to demonstrate that acceptance of the Genesis account as scientifically accurate has never been a requirement for being a Christian. Aside from anything else - before science, it was not meaningful to make such a claim - so the earliest such a claim can have first been made is about 150 years ago.

cordially,
Scofflaw

LFCFan

Jakkass wrote:

There are more than 1 billion Christians in this world, surely Creationism is credible if that many people believe?

Where does this figure come from? There is no possible way for anyone to truley know how many active Christians there are on the planet. I was born a Catholic and out of habit always wrote this on my census forms but I am in no way a Catholic in my mind. I go through the motions for the sake of not pissing off my family (i.e. getting married in a church, going to rememberance masses etc etc.) So, as far as figures go, I would be part of the 1 Billion you speak of but don't believe. No doubt there are many millions more like me who are Christian in this way. Also, the only reason there are even that many in the first place is because of what Dawkins terms 'Child Abuse'. i.e. Forcing a child down a path he/she had no choice in. How can you honestly say that forcing a child to believe in something it's parents do is the right thing? We are supposed to have free will afterall.

hairyheretic

Jakkass wrote:

A lot believe in Creationism in another form. Infact Muslims and Jews believe in the same method of Creationism. Adding that up to more than another billion anyway.
Hindus also believe in creationism, another 400 million.
Shinto? Confucianism? not entirely sure about those but I will research for you.

Pretty much every people and belief has their own creation story. Most don't align with the others, bar where the beliefs in question are linked.

Even if someone claims adherence to a particular belief, there is no way of knowing if they follow all of its tenents, and agree 100% with its doctrines.

How many of that billion believe in the literal creation story of their belief? How many believe in evolution and a universe billions of years old?

Excelsior

I am a Creationist in that I believe God is responsible for the creation and sustaining of the universe.

I still believe the Earth is about 4 billion years old in a universe about 14 billion years old and that humans evolved, where I take the term evolution to mean descent with modification.