Limerick-Galway by Rail

Tadhg17

When they re-open the Ennis-Athenry railway line next year, will there be direct rail services between Limerick and Galway or will you have to change at Athenry and get on a Dublin-Galway train? Does anyone know if there is a direct curve at Athenry for trains coming from Limerick to join the Dublin-Galway railway line?. Also since they announced funding for re-opening Ennis-Athenry last September,there has been no word on when IE will start work on the line. There is nothing on the Iarnrod Eireann website about it. Any news on when work will start?

loyatemu

afaik the curve at Athenry faces dublin - so any direct train will have to reverse (not a major problem for a railcar). Travelling LMK-GLY by train won't be particularly quick, its not very direct and the rebuild won't exactly be to TGV standards.

Ham'nd'egger

loyatemu wrote:

afaik the curve at Athenry faces dublin - so any direct train will have to reverse (not a major problem for a railcar). Travelling LMK-GLY by train won't be particularly quick, its not very direct and the rebuild won't exactly be to TGV standards.

I gather that the work will be beginning in the autumn (Ballast was reportedly dropped down 2 weeks ago so prep is already beginning) and that the first fundings for same were recently approved by Cabinet. There is a lot of new bridges to close off some of the many road and field crossings planned for the line so hopefully, the working speeds will be half decent.

KC61

Tadhg17 wrote:

When they re-open the Ennis-Athenry railway line next year, will there be direct rail services between Limerick and Galway or will you have to change at Athenry and get on a Dublin-Galway train? Does anyone know if there is a direct curve at Athenry for trains coming from Limerick to join the Dublin-Galway railway line?. Also since they announced funding for re-opening Ennis-Athenry last September,there has been no word on when IE will start work on the line. There is nothing on the Iarnrod Eireann website about it. Any news on when work will start?

The line is to be relaid to 70mph standard, with a seven trains per day schedule planned for Limerick-Galway, with a possiblity of additional commuter services.

FlutterinBantam

Last I saw of it at Gort,7 mph looks more likely.

From a laymans point of view ,starting work in the Autumn and ready in 2008 is not achievable....based on the Gort sightings!!

Chris_533976

They need to find themselves some plans to do a Cork - Galway rail too.

Ham'nd'egger

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Last I saw of it at Gort,7 mph looks more likely.

From a laymans point of view ,starting work in the Autumn and ready in 2008 is not achievable....based on the Gort sightings!!

Actually, it is very much acheivable by 2008.

CWR can be laid at about 400 metres a day per shift, and the likelyhood is that this work will be subbed out. Add to it relaying of ballast beds and other engineering works and the track itself will be ready in about 8 months from beginning. Signalling will be in place already and driver recruitment began some time ago for the Galway sheds

Victor

I realise this is largely an upgrade to an existing railway, but if they are doing major structural work, do the not need a railway order?

GerardKeating

Victor wrote:

I realise this is largely an upgrade to an existing railway, but if they are doing major structural work, do the not need a railway order?

Did they requre a Railway order when they re-laid a lot of the Galway-Ballinasloe track?

MarkoP11

No since it is considered maintenance and upgrades which are considered exempted. Major structural work such as a new bridge would require planning permission but renewal would not

There is no signalling system in place per say a complex set of arrangements allow for only engineers trains. A totally new signalling system will be installed, signalling guys are tied up till early 2008

Of course there are no actual trains available to run the service anyway

The stall is better explained by this http://forum.platform11.org/showpost.php?p=18623&postcount=3 The Examiner had a more detailed piece last week based ont he same info which was a lot more critical

Slice

While they're at it why don't they just re-route the track where it joins the Galway-Dublin mainline so that it directs towards Galway? It's not necessary to rebuild the Port Tunnel here...

FlutterinBantam

Hamndegger wrote:

Actually, it is very much acheivable by 2008.

CWR can be laid at about 400 metres a day per shift, and the likelyhood is that this work will be subbed out. Add to it relaying of ballast beds and other engineering works and the track itself will be ready in about 8 months from beginning. Signalling will be in place already and driver recruitment began some time ago for the Galway sheds

Great... I will be the first man to say congrats if it is....

loyatemu

Slice wrote:

While they're at it why don't they just re-route the track where it joins the Galway-Dublin mainline so that it directs towards Galway? It's not necessary to rebuild the Port Tunnel here...

that would presumably require a large curve, land acquisition, a railway order etc. Possibly not worth it as they'll want trains to serve athenry anyway and it'll all be railcar operated.

Zoney

loyatemu wrote:

Travelling LMK-GLY by train won't be particularly quick, its not very direct and the rebuild won't exactly be to TGV standards.

It can't be as long as the bus takes though, that's for sure. For a start the Ennis Bypass isn't as much an issue, as the buses still have to serve Ennis. Also most seem to detour into Shannon and/or Bunratty. The road north of Ennis is still abysmal.

And last but not least, even with HQDC all the way the bus is stuck to 50mph at top speed even ignoring the average speed with stops/detours.

Having a train service will do wonders for public transport use (and indeed travel in general) along this intercity route, especially considering its one of the more heavily used bus routes even given the current journey times!

John R

Zoney wrote:

It can't be as long as the bus takes though, that's for sure. For a start the Ennis Bypass isn't as much an issue, as the buses still have to serve Ennis. Also most seem to detour into Shannon and/or Bunratty. The road north of Ennis is still abysmal.

And last but not least, even with HQDC all the way the bus is stuck to 50mph at top speed even ignoring the average speed with stops/detours.

Having a train service will do wonders for public transport use (and indeed travel in general) along this intercity route, especially considering its one of the more heavily used bus routes even given the current journey times!

Expectations of high speeds from IE only lead to disappointment.

The current section from Limerick to Ennis non-stop is given 40mns, for 24.5 miles that is a poor average speed of 37mph. The section from Ennis-Athenry is 36 miles including one stop. Even assuming a better average speed Ennis-Athenry is going to be at best a 50 minute journey. Add in a few minutes for turnaround at Athenry and 12mns from Athenry to Galway (more if the Oranmore stop is built) then 1h45-1h50 is the best that should be expected.

The bus currently is given 2h20 including Shannon or 2h without. If an express was put in bypassing Shannon and Ennis a sub 2h time similar or better than the rail time would be possible.

Schuhart

John R wrote:

Add in a few minutes for turnaround at Athenry and 12mns from Athenry to Galway (more if the Oranmore stop is built) then 1h45-1h50 is the best that should be expected.

Your point is supported by the material posted by the [url==http://forum.platform11.org/showpost.php?p=18623&postcount=3]Article from the Clare People[/url] linked by MarkoP11. It looks like we’re spending money for on a service that will be slower than road and not particularly advantageous compared to a bus, and attract little custom.

The Secretary General of the Department of Transport, Julie O’Neill, in a memo to Transport Minister Martin Cullen said that Iarnród Éireann’s business case gave rise to a number of concerns; the very poor results of the cost benefit analysis and the ongoing operating deficit which would be higher than the average subvention per passenger paid to Irish Rail in 2005.

Ms O’Neill also had concerns in relation to the modest level of patronage for the service anticipated – a projected 100,000 in year one rising to 200,000 in year five. She said, “This is equivalent to 600 passengers spread over seven services a day in each direction.” Ms O’Neill also stated that the rail-link had a poor competitive position compared to the Ennis to Galway Road.

She said that the expected rail journey between Limerick and Galway would be one hour and 50 minutes compared to the one hour and 22-minute drive between the city perimeters by 2014. Ms O’Neill said that the Western Rail Corridor scored highly in relation to non-quantifiable impacts, particularly by virtue of the connectivity benefits at local, regional and international levels.

Ms O’Neill put forward four options for Minister Cullen including deferring a decision on the project on the basis that it was premature and advancing instead the pace of road development instead.

Iarnród Éireann’s business case concedes that the scale of infrastructure costs along with the ongoing annual operating costs mean the projected passenger levels will not be adequate to generate a positive socio-economic result. The business case stated that the “economic return on the project is poor due to relatively modest volumes”.

dowlingm

are we likely to see the kind of docs that were made available for Midleton or was that only because of the railway order?

Tadhg17

Schuhart wrote:

Your point is supported by the material posted by the [url==http://forum.platform11.org/showpost.php?p=18623&postcount=3]Article from the Clare People[/url] linked by MarkoP11. It looks like we’re spending money for on a service that will be slower than road and not particularly advantageous compared to a bus, and attract little custom.

Wasn't it claimed three years ago that nobody would use the Ennis-Limerick railway line when it was re-opened yet last year IE refurbished Ennis bus and rail station and expanded the car park. That wouldnt have happened unless there was demand for the rail and bus services. If you have ever experienced the traffic delays at the Coonagh roundabout in to the new shannon bridge by the docks in Limerick in the morning/evening, you would understand why people use the Ennis-Limerick rail service even though it takes 40 mins.

I am sure people from Gort and people coming from Loughrea to Cruaghwell will use the service. As good as the Limerick-Galway road will be in a few years you cant escape the fact that after the Doughiska roundabout via GMIT in Galway, it's one lane each way and major traffic problems in the morning and evening. There is an awful lot of traffic on the Limerick-Galway road and I'd be surprised if some of that doesnt transfer to the Limerick-Galway rail service.

KC61-"The line is to be relaid to 70mph standard, with a seven trains per day schedule planned for Limerick-Galway, with a possiblity of additional commuter services."

Will these supplement the Ennis-Limerick commuter services or replace them?. There is currently 8 services a day each way Ennis-Limerick.

loyatemu

most of the passengers Ennis-Limerick are apparently en-route to or from Dublin. Given the uncompetitive timings LMK-GLY, and the limited numbers actually travelling between these two "cities", then it would appear that the primary purpose of this re-opening will be to allow passengers from Gort (population < 2000) to travel to Dublin by train.

Zoney

loyatemu wrote:

the limited numbers actually travelling between these two "cities"

Yup - the dual carriageway between the two cities is just being built for a larf, and Bus Éireann are just running services on the route for driver training purposes.

And Limerick City doesn't have the majority of the city (suburbs) sitting outside the city boundary, thus ranking in the census less than half the size it should be (especially given issues around census reporting in city centre apartments - population drop despite more people than ever living there - strange that...)

I hear Limerick and Galway suffer no traffic congestion whatsoever either. How could they - there aren't enough people there to fill up roads.

KC61

Tadhg17 wrote:

KC61-"The line is to be relaid to 70mph standard, with a seven trains per day schedule planned for Limerick-Galway, with a possiblity of additional commuter services."

Will these supplement the Ennis-Limerick commuter services or replace them?. There is currently 8 services a day each way Ennis-Limerick.

I would imagine that some of the existing trains on Limerick/Ennis will be replaced by trains continuing to/from Galway, but others will remain in situ as Limerick/Ennis services.

There would also be a commuter service into/out of Galway calling at Craughwell and Ardrahan in addition to Gort and Athenry, possibly starting in Gort or Ennis.

Schuhart

Tadhg17 wrote:

Wasn't it claimed three years ago that nobody would use the Ennis-Limerick railway line when it was re-opened yet last year IE refurbished Ennis bus and rail station and expanded the car park. That wouldnt have happened unless there was demand for the rail and bus services.

As has been pointed out, what you call Ennis-Limerick is mostly about actually Ennis-Dublin. I don't think any figures have been published showing what the actual costs are in providing this service and what they might contribute if spent on something else.

What's at issue here is money being spent on rail that might, conceivably, yield a higher return if spent on road in the same region as the concentrations just aren't sufficient to justify rail. Presumably the reason its being spent on rail is so FF can go around Mayo saying the WRC is being done in stages. It has nothing to do with actually serving real transport needs in Limerick or anywhere else.

Given the usually superficial level of journalism and public debate on such issues, its actually surprising to see the Clare People carrying a story that probes deeper that 'Government throwing money at something in the Mid West. Yahoo.' It might be as well for some posters to actually read and reflect on the article before painting themselves into a corner.

dowlingm

Ennis-Athenry will also mostly be Ennis-Dublin, I suspect.

Opening all the intermediate stations on day 1 is a recipe for disaster. It should be Ennis-Gort-Athenry-Oranmore-Galway.

Those of you who think the bus will be outrun by the train "just coz" have not recently compared the timetables between Limerick and Roscrea.

KC61

I very much doubt people are going to go to Athenry from Ennis to get to Dublin? It's a much longer way than going via Limerick!

The intention as I understand it is for the Limerick-Galway Intercity trains to serve Sixmilebridge (for Shannon), Ennis, Gort and Athenry, and certainly not every station en route.

Commuter services will serve Oranmore, Ardrahan and Craughwell in addition to Gort and Athenry.

dowlingm

KC61 - it might not be you know. If there were direct services Ennis-Dublin that would be one thing but it usually involves one if not two changes at present. Based on timetables I've looked at for Athenry-Dublin it might be feasible for some Ennis pax to go up to Dublin one way and down the other, leveraging the best connections. By having two-way connections that means less "dead" time waiting for a train to depart at both Ennis and Heuston.

So for example a train via Limerick might be 20 minutes faster than the Athenry connection but if the traveller finds him/herself at Ennis station before the dep. of the Athenry service but with a 40min wait for the Limerick then the trip via Athenry gets in 20min earlier to Heuston, in theory at least.

Victor

Tadhg17 wrote:

I am sure people from Gort and people coming from Loughrea to Cruaghwell will use the service. As good as the Limerick-Galway road will be in a few years you cant escape the fact that after the Doughiska roundabout via GMIT in Galway, it's one lane each way and major traffic problems in the morning and evening. There is an awful lot of traffic on the Limerick-Galway road and I'd be surprised if some of that doesnt transfer to the Limerick-Galway rail service.

"Traffic" or rather congestion does not directly translate into numbers of journeys.

Clare has a problem of too much rural housing making stations uneconomic and Galway has the problem of everyone living on the westside and working on the eastside.

D'Peoples Voice

Victor wrote:

"Traffic" or rather congestion does not directly translate into numbers of journeys.

Clare has a problem of too much rural housing making stations uneconomic and Galway has the problem of everyone living on the westside and working on the eastside.

I stayed in Salt Hill recently, and you want to see the bus lane between Galway City and Salt Hill, or lack of one. We have a lot to be thankful when it comes to DCC, because GCC haven't a clue. They even allow cars to park along the main roads during rush hour.
our poor bus driver have to do some very skillful maneuvers to get down the main road out to Salt Hill.
The people of Galway should be ashamed of themselves for the government that they have elected locally.

corktina

2008? not a chance...relaying the track is only a small proportion of the work needed...levelcrossings, stations and fencing would be big issues, not to mention signalling. 7 trains a day? is it worth it?

KC61

corktina wrote:

2008? not a chance...relaying the track is only a small proportion of the work needed...levelcrossings, stations and fencing would be big issues, not to mention signalling. 7 trains a day? is it worth it?

Bear in mind that when 2008 is mentioned it means December 2008 when the annual timetable changes take place!!!

corktina

still no chance.....:) :cool: