Muslims in Irish politics.

Dontico

I think this topic would be more suited in the Islamic forum and not the politics one cause I'm only interested in Muslims opinions.

Which political party do you think represents the 40,000 Muslims in Ireland better?

I would be guessing that the socialist and communist groups such as Labour and the Socialist Party, would go against most hardcore Muslims beliefs as they go against many hardcore christians beliefs. all though I have met one Islamic member of Labour Youth.

I'm guessing Fianna Fail and the PD'S are out of the question cause of thier blatant racist members.

Sinn Fein claim to be very openly supportive of the Islamic community, but I would imagine thier socialist leanings would make Muslims unconfortable.

If I could make a bet on it, but I dont actually gamble, I would say Fine Gael would be the closest to winning over the Islamic community?
I've met a hand full Muslim in Young Fine Gael. Also FG are generally pro-multicultre.

But this is only me guessing. I'm not trying to push FG on to you, I was just wondering. I've talked to some FG TD's, I'm trying to convince them that they should start reaching out to the Islamic community.

r3nu4l

I'm not a Muslim but I imagine that Independents inlocal communities would do well.

There was a Muslim TD elected in Co. Clare in the 90s! FF are making efforts, don't know how they would be construed by Muslims though!

Dontico

is there any independant Muslim candidates?

InFront

As r3new4al said, Ireland did already have a Muslim TD, a pediatrician called Dr Bhamjee, he represented the Labour Party. Strange co-incidence, I was talking about this exact topic this morning with someone. There really is election fever in the air:D
There seems to be a common idea really that Socialism is the closest political outlook (in Ireland) to Islam. Dr Bhamjee was elected to the Irish Labour Party, all of the (four) British Muslim MPs are in Labour, etc. In fact, there is no political equal of Islam, Islam itself is a guiding force in politics, relationships, lifestyle, philosophy, etc. It is a 'complete' outlook on life without a specifically political counterpart.

So, as far as I understand, it is up to Muslims individually to see who best represents our interests - not just as Muslims - but as Irish (or maybe newly irish) people with a stake in this society, and whose policy and character we feel is most compatible with Islam. Different Muslims will give you different answers.

Just on the topic of Muslim involvement in politics, (a whole other issue by itself!) I think some Muslims feel that it is haram to vote in elections in foreign countries where Islam is a minority religion and the candidates are non Muslims. There is an interesting fatwa here that I think demystifies that, and the scholar puts it quite well when he says

Voting for a non-Muslim candidate who would serve the Muslim community in the country and deal with Muslim countries on the basis of justice and fairness is not only permissible but required. It is the responsibility of the Muslim minorities in non-Muslim democratic countries to participate in public life...

So if you can vote, no matter what party, please vote!

Wibbs

Ah here lads, Religion and politics in the same thread? You're asking for trouble. At this point Hobbes is getting rightfully twitchy, The new mr is thinking about Yoda again and InFront is wondering what he's just let himself in for.

From what I saw of Muslims in the UK, their faith had little to do with their politics. The choices made by some of the more devout among their number raised an eyebrow I can tell you. Not too much of a surprise though. That's people for you. That's the best thing about people. Pigeonholing them never works out the way you may think.

Hobbes

Its an acceptable thread. Pertains to Irish culture. Just don't be comparing any TD/Party to say some political party in Iran/Syria.

wes

Not too sure who I will vote for. Maybe the Greens or Sinn Fein. Will have to see what the guys campaigning in my area are saying. I think my brother said he will be voting for Fianna Fail. So I think it will come down to personal politics whom individual Muslims will vote for.

the_new_mr

Religion and politics does not a good thread make.

Dontico

I suppose the real question I'm asking is that, is there any party that Muslims would be unconfortable with? as in parties that directly conflicts with thier Islamic beliefs?
Example;
Muslims, like hard-Christians, I would imagine, wouldnt like voting for a pro-choice party.
Or a party that supports the random abduction of Europeans for torture.

InFront

Hope that wasn't a reference to certain parties? Remember, posts seeking converts is prohibited under the charter, I'm pretty sure this includes political converts (canvassing)!:)

Dontico

wasnt trying to covert people over to the "blue side". merely asking questions directly to the target audience. i'm not trying to push or promote a policy.

wes

Dontico wrote:

Or a party that supports the random abduction of Europeans for torture.

One of the reasons I will not be voting Fianna Fail personally. Well that and Shannon. Its so sad that the party De Velera founded and who remained neutral during WW2 would do that.

Really need to listen to the candidates in my area before I really make up my mind on the other parties.

lostexpectation

InFront wrote:

As r3new4al said, Ireland did already have a Muslim TD, a pediatrician called Dr Bhamjee, he represented the Labour Party. Strange co-incidence, I was talking about this exact topic this morning with someone. There really is election fever in the air:D
There seems to be a common idea really that Socialism is the closest political outlook (in Ireland) to Islam. Dr Bhamjee was elected to the Irish Labour Party, all of the (four) British Muslim MPs are in Labour, etc. In fact, there is no political equal of Islam, Islam itself is a guiding force in politics, relationships, lifestyle, philosophy, etc. It is a 'complete' outlook on life without a specifically political counterpart.

yeah its sorta strange that, but I guess if they've lived a good part of their life in another country whatever system was there would influence or if they were part of a communist or socialist party there whether in gov or more probably if in oppostion if they were already involved in politics and decided to leave, where are most first gen muslim in Ireland from? and what the party's have they there, there internatioanl left wing groupings are international right wing groupings, or religion based groupings, I guess you can be conservative and 'left wing'. It wouldn't be steroeptypical but true to say there probably get in based on hospistal campaigns being docs as we've already seen in IE and UK.

InFront

lostexpectation wrote:

where are most first gen muslim in Ireland from? and what the party's have they there, there internatioanl left wing groupings are international right wing groupings, or religion based groupings, I guess you can be conservative and 'left wing'.

The community is very diverse, because many Muslims are immigrants, and their coming to Ireland has been based more on economics and employment opportunities than old colonial links (such as is the case with Indians and Pakistanis in Britain, Algerians in France, etc.) So it is impossible to pinpoint any political backdrop because of the huge variation that exists from places like Turkey to Malaysia and Nigeria to India.
I'm not aware of the statistics, or if there even are any, but a lot of Muslims won't be able to vote this time around; Islam is still relatively 'new' here compared to other European countries.

irish_bob

1st of all i would like to adress the comment about sinn fein being supportive of muslims
sinn fein are a party who are really only passionate about one issue
they pay lip service to liberal sacred cow issues like human rights , multiculturalism and the enviroment without ever going into specific detail about any of them
i woudnt think a vote for sinn fein is a good vote for muslims as most sinn voters are not exactly liberal or broadminded , well at least not modern day sinn fein voters , thier usually young uneducated working class men from deprived areas , the kind of people who think foreigners are stealing iwhite irish peoples jobs , thier is little progressive about sinn fein voters

as i said thier at thier core , a one issue party

as regards the absurd comment that the pd,s and fianna fail are full of racists
i dont know where to begin to argue that crap

fine gael the party for muslims to vote for
fine gael have a large tradtionaly rural vote who are the salt of the earth but quite conservative , they certainly would,nt go in for sacraficing traditional irish customs in order to make the muslim community feel more at home

which leave the greens and labour , i would say a combination of the john gormley wing of the greens and the ivana bashik wing of labour

both are into telling the majority of the country how it is us who need to adapt to our new muslim immigrants as opppsed to the common sense view that thee onus is on the immigrant be them muslim or other to adapt to thier host country
of course traditonal muslims may have a problem with both partys liberal view on womens issues

so after considerring all the partys , i would say thier is no party in particular that muslims should vote for

the question is strange anyway when you think about it
are muslims not individuals like everyone else , when it comes to voting do they need to block vote
that doesnt sound like a tactic that is devoted to integration

Frank Grimes

irish_bob wrote:

both are into telling the majority of the country how it is us who need to adapt to our new muslim immigrants as opppsed to the common sense view that thee onus is on the immigrant be them muslim or other to adapt to thier host country

When have the Greens actually said this out of interest?

Dontico

irish_bob wrote:

as regards the absurd comment that the pd,s and fianna fail are full of racists
i dont know where to begin to argue that crap

fine gael the party for muslims to vote for
fine gael have a large tradtionaly rural vote who are the salt of the earth but quite conservative , they certainly would,nt go in for sacraficing traditional irish customs in order to make the muslim community feel more at home
the question is strange anyway when you think about it

are muslims not individuals like everyone else , when it comes to voting do they need to block vote
that doesnt sound like a tactic that is devoted to integration

1-read recent PD comments on arabs. should be on thier site somewhere. allowing the CIA to abduct european muslims sounds racist to me.

2-what traditional values would we have to sacrifice? i dont think there are enough muslims to ever get rid of alcohol in this country. drink being the only main difference i can think of.

3-hard christian would view that some parties dont represent thier christian beliefs so i assume some muslims would have a simular view. some people in this country still vote with thier religion as a judge.

irish_bob

even it were true as you claim that the pd,s said it was ok for the cia to abduct european muslims
it is inaccurate to conclude that would make them racists
1st of all , being muslim does not define what race you are

as regards the alcohol arguement about thier never being enough muslims in ireland for alcohol to be banned
something like 13% of muslims when polled in ireland said they would like to see ireland being run under sharia law

Hobbes

irish_bob wrote:

as regards the alcohol arguement about thier never being enough muslims in ireland for alcohol to be banned
something like 13% of muslims when polled in ireland said they would like to see ireland being run under sharia law

So what you are saying is that 87% of Muslims in Ireland don't want Sharia law?

Or to put it even simpler for you 0.26% of the population want Sharia law.

I don't see it happening anytime soon. Do you? Especially considering that any such changes would require a change to the constitution and a referendum.

Btw (re: Sinn Fein) name calling via a demographic is still name calling. Please don't do.

Dontico

Hobbes wrote:

0.26% of the population want Sharia law.

Ah no take out the crosses lads!
I'm pretty sure garlic is a good weapon against muslins.:rolleyes:

/joking.

irish_bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob
as regards the alcohol arguement about thier never being enough muslims in ireland for alcohol to be banned
something like 13% of muslims when polled in ireland said they would like to see ireland being run under sharia law


So what you are saying is that 87% of Muslims in Ireland don't want Sharia law?

Or to put it even simpler for you 0.26% of the population want Sharia law.

I don't see it happening anytime soon. Do you? Especially considering that any such changes would require a change to the constitution and a referendum.

Btw (re: Sinn Fein) name calling via a demographic is still name calling. Please don't do.
Yesterday 10:44


cite examples of name calling in my post please

so because 13% of muslims want sharia law in ireland , in order to defend that statistic , you flip it and boast how 87% of muslims do not want it

by that logic , if 13% of christians in ireland wanted segregation in this country like they had in the usa up untill 40 yrs ago
i could turn around and say oh well thats ok because 87% of christians in ireland dont want segregation

it would be an extrordinarily large minority view if the latter were the case and it is an extrordinarily large minority view that is the case in the former

Hobbes

so because 13% of muslims want sharia law in ireland , in order to defend that statistic , you flip it and boast how 87% of muslims do not want it

I didn't flip anything around. I pointed out how stupid your percentage was. Yes its 13% but last time I checked 13% is a minority and 13% of 2% (overly estimated muslim population in Ireland) is 0.26% of everyone in Ireland.

If you want try actually working in figures rather then percentages which don't really mean anything. For example the amount you are talking about is that out of 4,062,235 people in Ireland only roughly 10,562 want Sharia law.

If the number of Muslims = number of Christians in Ireland you might have a case, but it isn't and you don't.

Also the way the Irish government works lets say something crazy happens and all those 10,562 get into government they still couldn't implement sharia law without a referendum.

Incidently might want to check the poll as well (a link would be nice) would give an idea of the sample used.

Chasing windmills tbh.