Football League to scrap draws

KdjaCL

The Football League board is to consider a proposal to scrap draws and decide matches by penalty shoot-outs, BBC Five Live understands.

The idea will be discussed by Football League chairmen and chief executives at a board meeting on Thursday.

No timescale has been given for implementing the change if the chairmen go ahead with the proposal.

"Why can't we just have a draw?" Bournemouth boss Kevin Bond told the Daily Echo newspaper.


606: DEBATE
Hats off to the Football League for discussing this

John S - BBC Sport
The idea was originally put forward in the recent Football League Fans Survey.

There are currently two proposals to be considered - a traditional penalty shoot-out or where a player would have eight seconds to try and score after receiving the ball on the half-way line.

"I don't agree with it because I think it's too much of a radical change," Bond added.

"I'm very open-minded and I think certain laws of the game need to move with the times but that would be too much of a drastic measure."

A bit mad , but have seen it before in Astro leagues and its fun but not pro fun.


kdjac

therecklessone

Just seen that on the Beeb website.

Absolute nonsense suggestion.

WhiteWashMan

well, i suppose it would stop teams playing for a draw.
or would they?

not too keen on the idea. i fail to see why draws should be thrown out considering you get 38 games in a season to win a league.

copacetic

WhiteWashMan wrote:

well, i suppose it would stop teams playing for a draw.
or would they?

not too keen on the idea. i fail to see why draws should be thrown out considering you get 38 games in a season to win a league.

I'd say it would actually encourage teams to play for a draw and hope to win on pens. Put a defensive team of good peno takers together and you could win the league!

super_furry

Absolute ****ing clownshow idea.

BaZmO*

WhiteWashMan wrote:

well, i suppose it would stop teams playing for a draw.
or would they?

More than likely not. Think about all the really bad teams in any league that end up parking the bus in front of their goal for 90 mins and as a result they end up getting about 10 draws in a season therefore only 10pts. If this new rule went ahead, and with the lottery that is a penalty shootout, those 10pts. could quite easily end up being 30pts.

It's bad enough getting knocked out of a cup through penalties, but the prospect of losing a hat load of points throughout the season is just mental.

Why do they always try to implement all the crazy rules instead of trying to sort out the smaller more important issues?

therecklessone

One measure worth looking at is giving 0 points for a 0-0 draw to encourage attacking play.

BaZmO*

therecklessone wrote:

One measure worth looking at is giving 0 points for a 0-0 draw to encourage attacking play.

Now that's a good idea.

WhiteWashMan

well, in womens hockey they give 2 points for a score draw. id rather that than scrap draws altogether

Mossy Monk

madness. it almost like the American way of things. draws are evil it would seem. they should leave it as it is and scrap replays in cup competitions

therecklessone

Mossy Monk wrote:

hey should leave it as it is and scrap replays in cup competitions

Worse idea.

KdjaCL

therecklessone wrote:

Worse idea.

How so?

I prefer the finish on the night scenario rather than adding games, altho only succesful teams ever bitch about playing too many games, last sesasn i bitched about playing too little.

kdjac

therecklessone

KdjaCL wrote:

altho only succesful teams ever bitch about playing too many games

There's your reason.

All the big sides in the PL have big squads and should be able to handle a couple of extra games. If they're not good enough to put lesser sides away on the day then they don't deserve an easy ride.

p.s. I'd settle for extra-time for the first tie.

KdjaCL

therecklessone wrote:

There's your reason.

All the big sides in the PL have big squads* and should be able to handle a couple of extra games. If they're not good enough to put lesser sides away on the day then they don't deserve an easy ride.

p.s. I'd settle for extra-time for the first tie.

I prefer ending on the night it works, replays were originally intended as moneymaker for english clubs and thus carried tru the world as written gospel in football rules.

Ending on the night gaurantees the fan a decent game with excitement.

* Chelsea only have one Centreback in their entire squad so not entirley ture.

kdjac

BaZmO*

WhiteWashMan wrote:

well, in womens hockey they give 2 points for a score draw. id rather that than scrap draws altogether

But then you'd have to award 4 points for a win.

therecklessone

KdjaCL wrote:

Ending on the night gaurantees the fan a decent game with excitement.

Yeah, but the minnows get their draw at home and take the game back to Stamford Bridge/OT/Anfield etc etc. There's excitement for them.

KdjaCL wrote:

* Chelsea only have one Centreback in their entire squad so not entirley ture.

kdjac

Spurs have three injured and one ineligible tonight. We're playing a RB at CB.

Them's the breaks.

KdjaCL

therecklessone wrote:

Yeah, but the minnows get their draw at home and take the game back to Stamford Bridge/OT/Anfield etc etc. There's excitement for them.

But you go to away games therein lies your excitement, the luck of the draw etc: If your away at a big club you travel en masse in cups you get half the gate so really just being greedy looking for replay (its in the how the PL was made book by alan sugar about how replays came about).

therecklessone wrote:

Spurs have three injured and one ineligible tonight. We're playing a RB at CB.

Them's the breaks.

Yeah but Chelsea only have one, thankfully he played tonight, the reserves must play 154 :eek:


kdjaC

therecklessone

KdjaCL wrote:

Yeah but Chelsea only have one, thankfully he played tonight, the reserves must play 154 :eek:
kdjaC

Terry + Carvalho = 2.

Their own fault they let Huth and Gallas leave.

leninbenjamin

this is bullplop, but i would be in favour of 0 points for a nil all draw. 2 for a score draw is a bit much.

as for the replays issue, i can understand that the smaller clubs need the money generated from replays, but i much rather it when it's done and dusted on the night. there's nothing worse than playing for a draw in a cup match imo.
i'd rather see replays abandoned and the league restructured so that income is distributed more equally and there should be salary caps (that aren't related to a proportion of income as have previously been mooted. every team should be subject to the same). but quite frankly we're more likely to see draws eliminated before the league ever evens up the income.

also, a lot of Americans seem to be put off by soccer by the fact teams can have a boring nil all draw (at least that's been the gist in conversations i've had with some). i can foresee something like this adopted by the entire soccer establishment to make further in-grounds on the American market.

BaZmO*

leninbenjamin wrote:

also, a lot of Americans seem to be put off by soccer by the fact teams can have a boring nil all draw (at least that's been the gist in conversations i've had with some).

Their loss tbh. They were given a world cup and still weren't interested. They shouldn't be pandered to anymore.

therecklessone

leninbenjamin wrote:

as for the replays issue, i can understand that the smaller clubs need the money generated from replays, but i much rather it when it's done and dusted on the night. there's nothing worse than playing for a draw in a cup match imo.

Harder to do that over 120 minutes though, so extra-time after first tie would help. Still not in favour of penos. Know what's gas though, next major tournament that sees a load of games decided on penos, and there'll be a clamour to do away with "the lottery of penos"...:D

leninbenjamin wrote:

i'd rather see replays abandoned and the league restructured so that income is distributed more equally and there should be salary caps (that aren't related to a proportion of income as have previously been mooted. every team should be subject to the same). but quite frankly we're more likely to see draws eliminated before the league ever evens up the income.

Two reasons why that would never happen...

1. EU would never allow it, probably interfere with freedom of emploment or some such sh*te.
2. Would need to European-wide or else the Euro game would be skewed towards the higher paying leagues. Never get the agreement necessary.

mike65

I think the beeb have run thier April 1 story two weeks early.

Mike.

leninbenjamin

BaZmO* wrote:

Their loss tbh. They were given a world cup and still weren't interested. They shouldn't be pandered to anymore.

I agree completely, but the game has sold out so much already that i can see measures like this brought in eventually.

leninbenjamin

therecklessone wrote:

Harder to do that over 120 minutes though, so extra-time after first tie would help. Still not in favour of penos. Know what's gas though, next major tournament that sees a load of games decided on penos, and there'll be a clamour to do away with "the lottery of penos"...:D

anyone remember an experiment done in an Italian preseason tournament before (i think 1998)? hocky style shoot outs 1 v1, players start at the half way and have 7 seconds or something to advance on the goal keeper and score? it was far more entertaining and a better reflection of skill differences between teams. i would like to see this tried out again.

Edit: sorry for the double post

KdjaCL

They will own most of the PL by the start of the next season They cant get it working over there but know a sure thing when they see it.

Buy club 200 300 million, get 160 million back every after next before you charge a fan. Different thread but you wont be pandering to amercians if your a PL fan you be hoping the "company" releases a few quid to sign someone next season.


kdjac

BaZmO*

leninbenjamin wrote:

i can see measures like this brought in eventually.

Very true, but as I said, they shouldn't be pandered to any more, but more than likely will be.

kraggy

leninbenjamin wrote:

anyone remember an experiment done in an Italian preseason tournament before (i think 1998)? hocky style shoot outs 1 v1, players start at the half way and have 7 seconds or something to advance on the goal keeper and score? it was far more entertaining and a better reflection of skill differences between teams. i would like to see this tried out again.

Edit: sorry for the double post

They did this in America in the 70's when Pele et al were playing for the New York Cosmos and the league was successful (as seen in "Once in a Lifetime").

Great idea, instead of shootouts anyway.

k.

zAbbo

They also had those half way line peno's in MLS ~ 94/95 when Donadoni etc. were playing

You had 10 secs to kick or something as well.

BaZmO*

Might as well say as seen as no one else has mentioned it and what with the talk of the Americans........


"MULTI-BALL"

leninbenjamin

BaZmO* wrote:

"MULTI-BALL"

lol, i knew someone would get that in somewhere.

redspider

How about a point for every goal scored, and a point for 10 attempts on target from within a 25-metre zone (new line required across the pitch), or a point for every 8 attempts on target from within the penalty box. This would encourage attacking play and means a team should attack as much as possible.

Points are lost similarly, one pt for each goal let in, and one pt for 8 attempts allowed.

Other rule changes:

Only 4 defenders allowed in the penalty box and 3 attackers (similar to basketball key-zone). (Impact: no wall, smaller walls in box)

1 yard separation between players at dead-ball situations

If a draw, a sideline official awards a point for the team which played the most stylishly, attacking, entertaining, best moves, etc. (Difficult to implement due to subjectivity).

Redspider

The Rooster

BaZmO* wrote:

More than likely not. Think about all the really bad teams in any league that end up parking the bus in front of their goal for 90 mins and as a result they end up getting about 10 draws in a season therefore only 10pts. If this new rule went ahead, and with the lottery that is a penalty shootout, those 10pts. could quite easily end up being 30pts.

It's bad enough getting knocked out of a cup through penalties, but the prospect of losing a hat load of points throughout the season is just mental.

Why do they always try to implement all the crazy rules instead of trying to sort out the smaller more important issues?

No - its still 1 point each for a draw, but the winner of the shootout gets an extra point. So the loser doesnt lose a point, they hold onto the 1 they have.

I think there is the risk that it would encourage teams to settle for a point and take their chances for the bonus point on pens - but its still not as good as an outright win, and penalties are exciting (as would be the 1 on 1 idea), and usually the team with the better and more composed players win the penalty shootout. It is a skill, and not a lottery as some people suggest (losers usually).

eirebhoy

A bonus point for a certain amount of goals like in rugby would be good.

Necronomicon

I really hope they don't go through with this, or even any of the other ideas mentioned. We all love the game to bits, don't fix it if it's not broken.
The only fundamental change I think is worth debating is the whole goal-line technology issue, but that's for another thread.

SSN asked Ian Holloway, Tony Mowbray and Peter Taylor about it and the unanimous answer was that it was a ridiculous idea. I hope the Football League chairmen feel the same way.

BaZmO*

Necromomicon wrote:

I really hope they don't go through with this, or even any of the other ideas mentioned. We all love the game to bits, don't fix it if it's not broken.
The only fundamental change I think is worth debating is the whole goal-line technology issue, but that's for another thread.

SSN asked Ian Holloway, Tony Mowbray and Peter Taylor about it and the unanimous answer was that it was a ridiculous idea. I hope the Football League chairmen feel the same way.

But years ago people would've said that a back pass to a Goalkeeper was ridiculous or subsitutions or 3 points for a win. Nothing wrong with looking at new ways to improve the game.

PHB

It's a league, there can't be replays.
Personally I'd be a fan of no points for anybody for a draw, or else 4 points for a win.
3 points for a win was a step in the right direction, let's make it 4, or else no points for a draw, or a half point for a draw, or 6 for a win, 1 for a draw.

Draws are bad!

To be honest I think it's all bull****.
Barca vs. Real 3-3 was a draw, the problem with English football is that people are scared to go for the win, because they don't see the incentives to do so.
Clubs like Reading do, and that's why they are safe and secure, and clubs like Watford are down the bottom of the league. If people can't learn from their own mistakes, then let them go down, and we'll be laughing.

Töpher

3 points for a win.
1 point for a score draw.
0 points for a loss, or a 0-0.

BaZmO*

Einst&#252 wrote: »

0 points for a loss, or a 0-0.

So you're equating a loss with a draw (albeit a no score draw)? That's just crazy

Big Ears

eirebhoy wrote:

A bonus point for a certain amount of goals like in rugby would be good.

That's the only change suggested so far that I think might actually improve the game .

Adding a bonus point for scoring either 4/5 goals in a game would definetly encourage attacking play without ****ing up the game .

It would prevent sides from sitting back once they've got a 2-0 , 3-0 lead and encourage them to be ruthless and look for more goals .

Töpher

BaZmO* wrote:

So you're equating a loss with a draw (albeit a no score draw)? That's just crazy

Just a suggestion to stop teams playing for the 0-0. Was mooted further up the page.

Tonio

A few years back I recall someone proposing 4 points for an away win. I think that would be a good idea. It would promote more attacking play instead of teams just packing their defences.

Another idea mentioned would be the away team getting 2 points for a draw and the home team 1 point. Not sure about that one personally...

The Rooster

Tonio, they did that in the League of Ireland one year.

Away win 4 pts
Home win 3
Away draw 2
Home draw 1
Loss 0

Only lasted a season.

therecklessone

eirebhoy wrote:

A bonus point for a certain amount of goals like in rugby would be good.

Difference between soccer and rugby is that you can win a game of rugby without scoring a try, you can't win a football match without a goal.

Is there a danger that by prioritising goals to such an extent you'll devalue defence such that English sides will suffer in European competition when they come up against more tactical Euro sides?

eirebhoy

Well as it is the English teams are probably the strongest in Europe but they're not very enjoyable to watch (Spurs aside but they're hardly focusing on keeping clean sheets). I'd certainly prefer to watch 2 dodgy defences like Barca-Real last week.

WhiteWashMan

eirebhoy wrote:

Well as it is the English teams are probably the strongest in Europe but they're not very enjoyable to watch (Spurs aside but they're hardly focusing on keeping clean sheets). I'd certainly prefer to watch 2 dodgy defences like Barca-Real last week.

i was very drunk at 2am and the highlights of that game came on.

was very entertaining.

perhaps they could introduce bonus points for style and panache

you know, chelsea will never get any, while west hams defence will entertain endlessly

therecklessone

I fear I am turning into Redspider...:D

I've looked at two possible changes to the current points structure.

1. Win = 4pts, score draw = 2pts, no-score draw = 1pt, Loss = 0pts (duh!)

2. Win = 4pts, draw with >3gls = 2pts, draw with <3gls = 1pt, Loss = 0 pts.

Applying them to the current table yields little or no change in league positions, though obviously sides would be expected to modify their game plan in the event of an amended points structure.

In scenario 1, the table looks thus:

Man Utd
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Bolton
Everton
Reading
Spurs
Portsmouth
Blackburn
Newcastle
Middlesbrough
Aston Villa
Fulham
Wigan
Sheff Utd
Man City
Charlton
West Ham +1
Watford -1

Scenario 2 yields slightly more change:

Man Utd
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Bolton
Reading +1
Everton -1
Portsmouth +1
Spurs -1
Blackburn
Newcastle
Middlesbrough
Fulham +1
Aston Villa -1
Wigan
Sheff Utd
Man City
Charlton
West Ham +1
Watford -1

Full spreadsheet attached

therecklessone

Its interesting to note that:

1. 76.12% of PL matches end in a win.
2. 15.92% end in a score draw.
3. Only 7.96% end in a goalless draw.
4. Average goals per game is 2.43

In terms of draws, while 23 ended in a 0-0 a further 33 ended in 1-1.

mike65

therecklessone, there are pills you can take.

Mike.

astrofool

Would teams not "make sure" it ended 1-1 rather than 0-0

copacetic

therecklessone wrote:

Its interesting to note that:

1. 76.12% of PL matches end in a win.
2. 15.92% end in a score draw.
3. Only 7.96% end in a goalless draw.
4. Average goals per game is 2.43

In terms of draws, while 23 ended in a 0-0 a further 33 ended in 1-1.

it's not really.:)

therecklessone

astrofool wrote:

Would teams not "make sure" it ended 1-1 rather than 0-0

I was all typed out by the time I'd finished posting earlier, so I'll continue...

I think that is a real possibility, and this current season shows that 1-1 draws happen more often than 0-0. Anything more than 3 goals has to be seen as an improvement though, so awarding 2 points to a draw of 2-2 or more (or valuing it more than 1-1 or 0-0) is a good idea IMO.

I'd also be inclined to rank sides on points then goals scored (as opposed to goal difference) in the league. Take the last weekend of full PL action as an example...Spurs beat West Ham 4-3, Blackburn beat Bolton 2-1, Arsenal beat Reading 2-1...yet all three winning sides get the same increase to the GD as Utd and Wigan who scored the only goal in each of their games.