dual license

SonOfPerdition

Folks,

If an irish resident had a UK driving license and also an irish driving license, both of which are valid and overlap in most categories, is there any law (irish or european) that disallows this?

What should the person do?

Ta,
SOP

Alun

No you can't legally hold both IIRC. How did such a situation arise BTW?

I.S.T.

Alun wrote:

No you can't legally hold both IIRC. How did such a situation arise BTW?

Are you sure it's illegal? You could hold a UK driving licence and then apply for a provisional Irish, then take and pass the Irish driving test. That would give you both a UK and Irish licence. However most people from the UK will hand their licence in which entitles them to a full Irish licence without having to do the driving test as passing the UK test (or any EU driving test) is recognised here.

Alun

IrishSpeedTraps wrote:

Are you sure it's illegal? You could hold a UK driving licence and then apply for a provisional Irish, then take and pass the Irish driving test. That would give you both a UK and Irish licence. However most people from the UK will hand their licence in which entitles them to a full Irish licence without having to do the driving test as passing the UK test (or any EU driving test) is recognised here.

Pretty sure.

I mean, following your example, I could move to several EU countries and amass a whole raft of different driving licences. If I get banned and lose my licence in one country then no problem ... just use one of the other ones instead! I'm guessing that's why it's illegal

We had a thread on this topic last year some time, and I'm pretty sure I unearthed some legislation in this regard, but I'm not sure where it was.

.Longshanks.

Its been know to happen around the border counties for a person to apply for a renewed driving licence as they ‘lost’ their original. Then, as they live close to the border, go into the North with the originally ‘lost’ licence and surrender it to the PSNI / relevant authority to gain a replacement UK licence.
This is possible as a very high proportion of people in the border regions have family living in the North and they use their families address.
This is more popular that you’d think as half the cars driving around Donegal / Monaghan etc are Northern registration insured and taxed through the ‘fake’ address…..
They then have two licences – totally illegal but that doesn’t stop them...:rolleyes:

Mylow

Longshanks100 wrote:

Its been know to happen around the border counties for a person to apply for a renewed driving licence as they ‘lost’ their original. Then, as they live close to the border, go into the North with the originally ‘lost’ licence and surrender it to the PSNI / relevant authority to gain a replacement UK licence.
This is possible as a very high proportion of people in the border regions have family living in the North and they use their families address.
This is more popular that you’d think as half the cars driving around Donegal / Monaghan etc are Northern registration insured and taxed through the ‘fake’ address…..
They then have two licences – totally illegal but that doesn’t stop them...:rolleyes:

Wrong, you need to show proof of residency in NI before you can even do a change of address on your UK driving license. The only way to get a NI license is to do test in NI, unless surrendering an EU license etc. DVLNI issue license in NI, DVLA issue licenses in UK.
http://www.dvlni.gov.uk/drivers/ec_licences.htm

.Longshanks.

I stand corrected.....they've obviously tightened up in the last 5-6 years

Altreab

Longshanks100 wrote:

Its been know to happen around the border counties for a person to apply for a renewed driving licence as they ‘lost’ their original. Then, as they live close to the border, go into the North with the originally ‘lost’ licence and surrender it to the PSNI / relevant authority to gain a replacement UK licence.
This is possible as a very high proportion of people in the border regions have family living in the North and they use their families address.
This is more popular that you’d think as half the cars driving around Donegal / Monaghan etc are Northern registration insured and taxed through the ‘fake’ address…..
They then have two licences – totally illegal but that doesn’t stop them...:rolleyes:

Maybe this is why the Garda have started impounding cars in the Donegal area last few days

SonOfPerdition

Alun wrote:

No you can't legally hold both IIRC. How did such a situation arise BTW?

10 years ago, when i surrendered my UK license i needed to get a cert from DVLA with my details and categories as i had lost the license itself.

Early this week rummaging through some old paperwork i found the original license buried in with some old bank statements. I assumed it had been canceled and was about to chuck it in the bin, then i decided to keep it as a souvenir and stuck it in my pocket. On the off chance i rang DVLA to check its status, entirely expecting to be told it had been surrendered ... and you can guess the rest .. it's still valid.


So .. i have two licenses.. a UK and an Irish. I know i should hand in my UK one, but there's no way in hell i'm going to when its valid until I'm 70. I'd actually surrender my irish one first, but i need that for my motorcycle license.

SOP

.Longshanks.

Mylow wrote:

Wrong[/url]

SonOfPerdition wrote:

So .. i have two licenses.. a UK and an Irish. [/url]

Looks like you actaully can do it then...if you really wanted too. But obviously still be illegal....:p:D

Alun

SonOfPerdition wrote:

10 years ago, when i surrendered my UK license i needed to get a cert from DVLA with my details and categories as i had lost the license itself.

Early this week rummaging through some old paperwork i found the original license buried in with some old bank statements. I assumed it had been canceled and was about to chuck it in the bin, then i decided to keep it as a souvenir and stuck it in my pocket. On the off chance i rang DVLA to check its status, entirely expecting to be told it had been surrendered ... and you can guess the rest .. it's still valid.


So .. i have two licenses.. a UK and an Irish. I know i should hand in my UK one, but there's no way in hell i'm going to when its valid until I'm 70. I'd actually surrender my irish one first, but i need that for my motorcycle license.

SOP

Hmmm .. not quite sure about that situation, it's an unusual one to say the least! I assume that the Irish authorities failed to inform the DVLA of the fact that your licence had been surrendered, either that or the DVLA screwed up.

I'm not sure where you stand purely from a legal standpoint there, but I'd say the fact that you surrendered your UK licence to exchange it for an Irish one made your UK licence invalid from that point, regardless of what bureaucratic bunglings went on after that.

rebel.ranter

What does it matter if both the UK & Irish systems say the license for that juristiction is still valid. It woudl be great handing in the UK one here & the irish one in UK when any offences were committed. Completely illegal & irresponsible but that's what the gist of this thread is really about.

Seth Brundle

Alun wrote:

Pretty sure.

I mean, following your example, I could move to several EU countries and amass a whole raft of different driving licences. If I get banned and lose my licence in one country then no problem ... just use one of the other ones instead! I'm guessing that's why it's illegal

We had a thread on this topic last year some time, and I'm pretty sure I unearthed some legislation in this regard, but I'm not sure where it was.

This is actually quite common going by media reports. Drivers whose licence has accrued enough points to put them off the road are simply getting a licence from another jurisdiction. This is one of the main reasons the EU want a single EU licence.
Im not aware of any Irish law saying that you cannot hold a 2nd licence (Im not saying there isn't such a law!).

Altreab wrote:

Maybe this is why the Garda have started impounding cars in the Donegal area last few days

Thats down to VRT not licences.

Alun

I found the appropriate law, which is an EU one. From http://ec.europa.eu/transport/home/drivinglicence/faq/004_en.htm

21. Is it possible to have two driving licences issued by different Member States?

No, in its Article 7(5) Directive 91/439/EEC stipulates that no person may hold a driving licence from more than one Member State. This includes withdrawn licences.

Seth Brundle

grand so!

SonOfPerdition

actually ,not quite so grand . .... yet

Alun has quopted a european directive which is not law in itself, it has to be implemented by legislation in each member country to become law. But i can't find the irish legislation that implements it.

I'm not saying it isn't implemented in ireland, just that i can't find it.

~I'll keep searching .. if i find anything concrete i'll post it here.

Hmm, license officer ? . .sure . .pick one .. any one at all!

Alun

SonOfPerdition wrote:

Alun has quoted a European directive which is not law in itself, it has to be implemented by legislation in each member country to become law. But I can't find the Irish legislation that implements it.

Try

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI52Y2003.html
http://acts.oireachtas.ie/en.act.2002.0012.3.html

SonOfPerdition

Alun wrote:

Try

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI52Y2003.html
http://acts.oireachtas.ie/en.act.2002.0012.3.html

cheers Alun, i searched for all instances of the word "licence" in both those docs, i also downloaded and searched road traffic acts 2003, 2004 and 2006 . .still no mention specifically disallowing having a second licence from a member state.

road traffic act 2006 section 8 has an entry on recognising foreign licence but thats it.

i'll continue the search later .. i'll have to cover all acts since the EU directive to be sure.

SonOfPerdition

rebel.ranter wrote:

What does it matter if both the UK & Irish systems say the license for that juristiction is still valid. It woudl be great handing in the UK one here & the irish one in UK when any offences were committed. Completely illegal & irresponsible but that's what the gist of this thread is really about.

Not quite in my case. I ride a motorcycle 90% of the time, and my UK licence doesn't cover that so i must use my irish licence. But yeah, if i can use the UK licence that 10% of the time while driving the car then i most certainly will. But only if i can do so legally.

Alun

SonOfPerdition wrote:

cheers Alun, i searched for all instances of the word "licence" in both those docs, i also downloaded and searched road traffic acts 2003, 2004 and 2006 . .still no mention specifically disallowing having a second licence from a member state.

I don't know the exact way these things work, maybe you'd be better off over in the Legal forum, but I think you're clutching at straws here to be honest. I just Googled for documents from Ireland that contained the phrase 91/439/EEC, that's all. Merely the fact that it's referenced in the Road Traffic Act at all is enough for me to assume that it was integrated into the legislation. I don't think a member state can pick and choose what sections of a directive to enact and which ones not to.

SonOfPerdition

Hmm, why didn't i think of that.

Ok, i've opened this thread in legal forums.

If anyone wants to see what the outcome is they can jump to that thread.

Maybe a mod can lock this one now.

cheers lads .. I appreciate your time.

Del2005

Alun wrote:

I don't know the exact way these things work, maybe you'd be better off over in the Legal forum, but I think you're clutching at straws here to be honest. I just Googled for documents from Ireland that contained the phrase 91/439/EEC, that's all. Merely the fact that it's referenced in the Road Traffic Act at all is enough for me to assume that it was integrated into the legislation. I don't think a member state can pick and choose what sections of a directive to enact and which ones not to.

If that was the case then how come we don't have direct access on motorcylces? The Irish have chosen their own way of implementing the directive, on motorcycle licences, that no other country uses.

Alun

Del2005 wrote:

If that was the case then how come we don't have direct access on motorcylces? The Irish have chosen their own way of implementing the directive, on motorcycle licences, that no other country uses.

Unfortunately, I haven't a clue what you're on about .. what's "direct access on motorcycles"?

overdriver

It means even if you pass your test, they keep you restricted to a small bike for two years. it's ridiculous, considering if you have the money, you can insure and drive a Ferrari Enzo on a provisional license.

Seth Brundle

SonOfPerdition wrote:

Hmm, why didn't i think of that.

Ok, i've opened this thread in legal forums.

If anyone wants to see what the outcome is they can jump to that thread.

Maybe a mod can lock this one now.

cheers lads .. I appreciate your time.

will do!