Threatened with Dangerous Driving by angry Garda

madeupname

15/03/2007
Hi all,

I had a bit of a run in with an unmarked, plain clothes angry Garda which might result in a court summons for dangerous driving: Can I get your opinion on the incident. I’ve detailed it as best and honestly as I can.
I was driving in right lane of Wyattville Road, heading towards Church Road. At Church Road, left lane traffic and right lane merged into one lane on the left. I proceeded up right lane until road markings indicated that traffic merged to left. Traffic in left lane was moving very slowly; starting and stopping as vehicles from right lane merged into left lane.

I was stopped in right lane, and indicated my intentions to merge into left lane. I was not intending to skip a queue of traffic in left lane as both right lane and left lane were crawling along at same speed. I just tried wanted to get in correct lane. I yielded to a number of vehicles in the left lane. Then there was a 2 car gap directly to my left, between a vehicle to the front of my car and a red car to the rear of my car. It later turned out that the red car was an unmarked Garda car.

As traffic began to move slowly forward the red car in left lane to my rear was still stopped. I believed the driver of red car had seen my indications to merge with left lane and was allowing me to enter lane. I began to slowly manoeuvre into left lane at a speed of approximately 5-10Km/h, as I was half way through completing manoeuvre the driver in red car accelerated and the front of his car became positioned between pavement and rear of my car, nearly colliding with the rear passenger side of my car. I was not in a position to move back into the merging right lane as I believed this could result in hazard with other road users using this lane to merge.

I adjusted slightly to ensure a straight approach to single left lane, the red car was now directly behind my car and we where both in the single merged lane on Church Road. I flashed my hazard lights as a courtesy to the driver of red car for letting me merge into left lane. At this stage it appeared to me that the driver of red car was becoming aggressive; he began to beep his horn, tailgate my car to within inches of my rear bumper and was also weaving left and right in an agitated manner. The driver of red car then crossed from my rear across the single lane to right side of my vehicle; still while beeping horn and now gestating with his arm. It was my opinion that the driver was very aggressive and was suffering from road rage. My female passenger was frightened by this show of aggression from the driver of red car.

As I drove in the merged lane of Church Road the red car now came back to the rear of my car, it was only at this stage did we see the small flashing blue lights below the head lamps of the red car. It was only then did I understood this to be a Garda vehicle, when I was sure that I could pull-over without causing hazard or obstruction to other road users, I parked safely on the left side of road.

The driver of the red car disembarked his vehicle and put on a jacket, which only had a Garda sign sewed into left side of chest, therefore I do not know the name or badge Identification number of this Garda. He approached my car from driver side and pulled the driver’s door open and ordered me out of the car in an aggressive and intimidating manner, which again was a cause of concern for my female passenger.

The Garda accused me of cutting across his vehicle to enter the left merging lane. I tried to explain that I had believed that he saw my intentions to move into lane and that he was allowing me to do so, I also explained to him that I adhered to the rules of the road as best I could, considering the circumstances of our encounter. But the Garda was very irate and dismissive of my opinion. The Garda then threatened to “see to it that I never drove again”. Despite his attitude I remained courteous, helpful and responsive to his enquires regarding tax, insurance, licence, and address details.

After the Garda had written down my details, he moved back towards the driver door of his red car. I was standing on the pavement at passenger side of my car. From his door he shouted across to me that he would pursue this matter under a dangerous driving act, unfortunately he did not elaborate on the details of this charge or how it applied to this situation.

I can’t believe I got pulled-over because of this. Looking at the situation I wouldn’t even class it as careless driving- if anything I feel that Garda was causing a danger to road users! It makes me wonder how these detectives justify there big wages and generous pensions.

If I am summonsed to court can they really do me for dangerous driving?
If they do me for dangerous or careless driving will I get a large number of penalty points and what kind of fine should I expect?
In your opinion could I be able to defend if it is brought to court?
Have any of you found yourself in a similar situation? Or have any advice on the legalities of this charge?

Anan1

To be honest, this could all have been avoided if people merged into the left lane in good time.;) Without having been there, I couldn't pass judgement on exactly what happened. What I will say is that, confronted with an angry Guard, you did and said all the right things. Id be surprised if you heard any more about it. And you'll know to watch out for the red 01 D Mondeo in future!;)

Ph3n0m

madeupname wrote:

In your opinion could I be able to defend if it is brought to court?

of course, you do have a witness - who can atleast testify to what she saw and heard

madeupname

I Think it was a red 06 D Almera, he didn't even have the common decency to drive a mondeo

Anan1

madeupname wrote:

I Think it was a red 06 D Almera, he didn't even have the common decency to drive a mondeo

I was taking a guess there, there's a red 01 D Mondeo that haunts Killiney to Stillorgan!

Wishbone Ash

I wouldn't worry about it OP. Sounds like he was having a very bad day. If it goes to court, I can't see it going anywhere. Dangerous Driving charges usually arise from potentially dangerous situations where someone could have been injured or killed, eg. overtaking on a bend. I say you won't hear anything more about it.

PR - Did he go back to his car and radio 'control'?

sneakyST

I would never let any garda speak to me in that manner.

skibum

I know that area very well and saw a similar incident on the other end of church road (graduate pub roundabout end) this time a builders van was driving aggressively not letting a mondeo to merge in, lights came on, van pulled over....
Anyway I'm wondering if by taking this further, ie making a complaint to local station would this add fuel to the fire in this situtation

Over the years I have experienced a few incidents with cops who have had bad days, tried it on, but like you I never rised to the bait.

In this situtation I would look for some advice just in case you do get a registered letter or a cop at the door....

$Leon$

Are you sure he was really a guard?
It sounds fairly strange.
Did the car look like it could have been a Garda car? aerials? slight body damage?

You mentioned blue lights but was their a seiren?
You say he beeped the hard and drove aggressively for a while - to me this doesn't make sense for a guard. If i was him and i felt you cut out if front of me (thats obviously what he felt) I'd have the lights and seiren on straight away and pulled you over not drive up ur exhaust and beep the horn for a while.
Did he show you a bagde?
Was he in plain clothes under the jacket?

The aggresive nature you describe makes me think he's not a guard - why would a guard get so aggressive.

If I was you i'd report the incident to a local station before you hear from him. If the guard was overly aggressive it'll act against him and possibly in your favour, or you might just end up reporting some fella imitating a guard.

Anan1

sneakyST wrote:

I would never let any garda speak to me in that manner.

As any habitual speeder will tell you, apologising to irate Gardaí is part and parcel of keeping a clean license.

Pherekydes

Definitely a case of dangerous driving there.

But those cops can do what they like on the road...

NUTLEY BOY

Hopefully OP you will not hear any more about it. Sounds like a bad truncheon day alright. Mind you it sounds like OP might have a longer list of complaints against the little boy in blue.

Watch out for the same potential problem when turning right in to Sean Moore Road from Beach Road Sandymount as you head for Eastlink.

As you enter Sean Moore Road the traffic funnels in to one lane and there is a constant game of chicken played there with every turn of the lights......

ballooba

One of the benefits of driving a big car is that in situation like the above people let you merge.

There is arrows on the ground indicating for either lane to merge into the next. if you indicate in good time then there is no reason why people shouldn't let you in. If you slowly get closer and closer to them even the most ignorant driver will let you in.

bo-bo

thats a strange situation you were in - are you 100% sure he was a garda - i ask because an unmarked car should have a siren aswell as blue lights. there are plenty of wierdos around - you could have just met one of them! either way, you should not have been treated like that - id report it

Sandwich

Could the OP have legally not stopped at all, and just continued wherever he was going? What ID if any must a Garda car have to require you to stop.?

Could OP have refused to engage with him until shown ID and the Garda's number?

You could argue that what looked like a nutter driving dangerously gave good grounds for not stopping at all.

Sounds too bizarre, even for an off form Guard, not to be just a chancer.

Lorax

That sounds well dodgy, impersonating a gardai, I would have hit him a dig and ran.

_Kaiser_

I'd report it as well. This guy's whole demeanour (cop or not) is way out of line. The car itself doesn't sound like an unmarked vehicle either (the blue lights you mention is something I've seen on a lot of (modified?) cars lately so not necessarily a Garda car).

Either way, you don't have to accept bullying and intimidation like that from anyone, on the roads or not!

Here's how I'd have approached it..
1. Always keep your doors locked anyway (prevents people grabbing stuff or opening doors at will while you're stopped at lights or whatever)
2. Ask to see ID and get his name/station/badge number.
3. Remain calm and courteous at all times (like you did) and ask what exact violation he's charging you with.

OR...
Ring the 999 number while he roars and shouts and have them verify this guy is an actual cop before you even talk to him.


.. but that's just me. I've had more than enough dealings with incompetent/arrogant cops over the years, that I wouldn't put up with that at all.

Anan1

Lorax wrote:

That sounds well dodgy, impersonating a gardai, I would have hit him a dig and ran.

Really? I'd have been interested to hear how that ended up for you.

zilog_jones

Yeah it sounds dodgy...
I don't suppose you noticed what was on the windscreen? AFAIK Garda cars will either have a tax disc or nothing at all, i.e. no NCT or insurance discs.

Anan1

zilog_jones wrote:

Yeah it sounds dodgy...
I don't suppose you noticed what was on the windscreen? AFAIK Garda cars will either have a tax disc or nothing at all, i.e. no NCT or insurance discs.

It sounds perfectly normal. I've been pulled several times by plainclothes Guards in completely unmarked cars, never mind ones with blue lights.

antodeco

Kaiser2000 wrote:

1. Always keep your doors locked anyway (prevents people grabbing stuff or opening doors at will while you're stopped at lights or whatever)

Personally, this is something I always do. Its second nature to me like putting on my seatbelt. Always feel somewhat secure knowing that they have to smash the window to get at me! Id be long gone by then anyway!

Plus it also looks the boot!!

ballooba

antodeco wrote:

Personally, this is something I always do. Its second nature to me like putting on my seatbelt. Always feel somewhat secure knowing that they have to smash the window to get at me! Id be long gone by then anyway!

Plus it also looks the boot!!

I was told that locking doors is only for city driving. Reason being, if you crash you will have to be cut out of the car. :eek:

antodeco

ballooba wrote:

I was told that locking doors is only for city driving. Reason being, if you crash you will have to be cut out of the car. :eek:

I thought that most locks have a safety feature that on an impact they pop?! Hopefully none of us will ever have to find that out..

Seth Brundle

ballooba wrote:

I was told that locking doors is only for city driving. Reason being, if you crash you will have to be cut out of the car. :eek:

Modern cars will pop the locks if and when the airbags deploy.
Anyhow, cutting is only necessary if access isn't easy (if you follow me). If the doors were locked and could be opened (i.e. weren't damaged) then all that is necessary is to smash the glass and open it from within.

madeupname

Yeah he was in plain clothes, there was no sirens either. Initially didn't see blue lights until road straighented out and he moved away from bumper, because they were very low (under the headlamps). I am sure he was a Garda cause there was a female garda in passanger seat. didn't mention that as she didn't get involved. when he took me over to the side of his car to get details he opened the door on her side and grabbed a pen off her, I saw her take out there kit for testing for drink driving from the glove box but he just dismissed her and continued on eating the head off me, to get at the testing kit she also had to take out the blue flashing light that they usually put on the dash, it was on her lap and not connected either. It seemed to be that she was a bit suprised by the Garda's attitude and didn't at any stage say anything or get involved.

madeupname

Yeah in hind sight I think that makes sense, but he did a very convincing impersonatin of a Garda. I thought twice about asking him for his ID but thought if i did then this would enrage him more, and ruin any chance of having him forget about it after he calmed down!

$Leon$

Sounds like he was actually a Guard. Make a complaint to the local station ASAP.
Don't forget to mention the other guard who witnessed the incided.

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote:

OR...
Ring the 999 number while he roars and shouts and have them verify this guy is an actual cop before you even talk to him.


.. but that's just me. I've had more than enough dealings with incompetent/arrogant cops over the years, that I wouldn't put up with that at all.

Don't ring 999 for something like this, that is for emergencies only.

The following is taken from a post on another forum by a gaurd.

lads if you genuinely feel that you have a case for a complaint against a member of an garda siochana... then make it
ask for the gardas name, station,shoulder number and registered number your are enbtitled to these under the garda siochana complaints act .
the following is a list of complaints that the board deals with.

A complaint must be made within six months of the incident which gives rise to the complaint.


The Board deals with complaints of improper conduct by members of the Gardaí with the exception of the Garda Commissioner.



Improper conduct can be described as conduct that could result in a member being charged with a criminal offence.



or



Conduct which would constitute a breach of discipline under the Garda Síochána (Complaints) Act 1986. Examples of this kind of conduct are;



- Discourtesy



- Neglect of Duty (failing to do something which it is his / her duty to do)



- Abuse of Authority (oppressive conduct towards a member of the public such as making an arrest without good reason or using unnecessary violence towards anybody)



- Misuse of Property or Money in his / her custody belonging to a member of the public.



- Being Drunk in Uniform



- Falsehood or Prevarication (making or getting somebody else to make a statement or an entry in an official document which is, to his / her knowledge, false or misleading)



- Corrupt or Improper Practice (accepting or seeking bribes, using his / her position improperly to make a private gain)



- Putting himself or herself under a financial obligation to anyone in such a way that he or she could be compromised in the performance of his or her duty.



Other Discreditable Conduct
contact details are as follows

Garda Síochána Complaints Board

Block 1

5th Floor

Irish Life Centre

Dublin 1

Tel: (01) 872 8666

Fax: (01) 874 6249

Esel

ronoc wrote:

Don't ring 999 for something like this, that is for emergencies only.

I believe this is incorrect - you can ring 999 to report lots of things to the police - what other number do most people know? Is it an 'emergency' to report a dangerous driver? No. Or suspicious activity? No. I could go on. It could certainly be an emergency if you were pulled over by someone you thought was impersonating a Garda.

dumbyearbook

madeupname wrote:

15/03/2007
It makes me wonder how these detectives justify there big wages and generous pensions.

Whats that got to do with it? There are lots of people getting paid silly amounts in this country for doing work which contributes little to society never mind upholding law and order which is what they do.:D

You had one bad experience and are complaining like a baby about it grow up. Your not going to court so get over it.

(and by the way 'Their' and 'There' are two differnet words. e.g. 'Their test kit')

_Kaiser_

ronoc wrote:

Don't ring 999 for something like this, that is for emergencies only.

I'd argue that having some guy - who may or may not be a Garda - coming up to my door and roaring abuse and behaving in a threatening and intimidating manner while I sit in my car with an understandably nervous female passenger counts as an emergency!

Fair enough if you know the number of the station for the area you happen to be in, but otherwise I'd have no hesitation in dialling the 999 number. If they want to reroute the call to the local station after that then that's fair enough.