Ireland's need for scientists

luckat

I keep reading that the Government is worried sick about Ireland's need for scientists and high-end technologists.

But I've recently been talking to some people in universities, who tell me that - due to lack of government funding - science departments are losing the most talented people, because they can't offer tenure to lecturers.

Is this the most stupid political action ever?

And why aren't there huge full-expenses scholarships offered to talented science and technology students, and help into jobs, if we want to foster that?

One of the questions I'll be asking of politicians on my doorstep.

As the high-tech firms close and leave for eastern Europe and the jobs flood out, I wonder if the current government are listening to what Moore McDowell said on the radio the other day: "It's a good time to lose an election."

leninbenjamin

yes this is really something that needs to be put on the agenda more. i'm in NUIG studying IT and the numbers are ridiculously small. also the depts budget is constantly being slashed every year, so we now have to oldest and most troublesome PCs on campus... only in Ireland.

The lack of graduates in these areas though is quite frightening, the economic impact could be very severe, seeing as some of the most prominant employers in this Country (Dell, Microsoft, Intel i think form 20%? or something ridiculously high of our GDP) are all in this sector. if we can't get the graduates we wont be able to keep these companies here regardless, or else immigration remain at levels that will continually strain our infrastruture etc.

the only thing that will gain more graduates in these areas is a complete rethink on how we teach these subjects at second level. people are just completely put off the science and tech stuff due to the crap done at LC. but this same ould govt. have been spewin' the same old guff about how they will do this for years now...

it's not an encouraging situation

luckat

It's fecking ridiculous. What kind of dimwits are we electing? Not next time, though.

Cantab.

University research scientists are only part of the spectrum of requirements needed for Ireland to be that elusive "knowledge-based economy".

On university researchers: there is little financial motivation to persue such a research career. The salary of a post-doc researcher is ~€40k and is a temporary contract. Also there is no pension and no VHI (unless you pay for it yourself). In the university that I studied at, the plumbers have better pay and better conditions than the post-doc researchers. The reality of modern Ireland I guess.

Perhaps this is part of the reason why the most politically aware people end up becoming lecturers and committee members, leading to massive in-fighting and egos. Once you get tenureship, it's into drift wood mode: prance about in front of a room full of undergraduates, hire some foreign post-docs to do your work for you, be continually on the lookout for the next junket to lands afar, and sign yourself a nice expenses cheque regularly: the reality of academia in Ireland. You're wasting your time/life in university research (unless you are of that rare breed of person who genuinely loves what you do and don't care about money/personal wealth - I've yet to meet any such person).

luckat

Yes. Until we start putting big money in the way of hard-edge research, there's no real incentive to pursue a scientific career.

We need to fund both abstract research and practical research, to put people in touch with companies and with the international scientific community, to bring European and international scientific bodies to Ireland, and to found scholarships that will bring the most brilliant science students to Ireland to study - and turn the most brilliant Irish students to science.

The politicians seem to think that lip service alone will save us. No, boys, no.

r3nu4l

Cantab. wrote:

On university researchers: there is little financial motivation to persue such a research career. The salary of a post-doc researcher is ~€40k and is a temporary contract. Also there is no pension and no VHI (unless you pay for it yourself). In the university that I studied at, the plumbers have better pay and better conditions than the post-doc researchers. The reality of modern Ireland I guess.

QFT! :mad:

After my PhD, I did a 3 year post-doc (Biology) and quickly became aware of the stupidity of continuing on that road. The problem with postdocs is that very experienced scientists are priced out of the marketplace simply because many grants do not offer better salaries for greater experience. So a post-doc with 10 years experience must accept the same salary as someone who has perhas only 3 years experience.

The best grants in Ireland do reward excellent science and pay well but these grants are few and far between and there is such pressure on those holding the grants to produce the goods that they advertise globally in the journals "Science" and "Nature", thus attracting the worlds best.


The lack of pension, employment rights, a straightforward career path, job security, health benefits and other packages led me to leave scientific research for good and change careers. I'm now earning far more money than a post-doc for a job that is far safer and far less mentally challenging, fare less pressured and far less stressful. MADNESS!

I know post-docs in their 40's who are now stuck on recurring contract with no chance of earning more money or improving their positions. It's sad to see. If Ireland wants to improve scientifically then we must attract far more research and development centres. The government points towards large pharma companies investment as a sign of commitment to science but in fact these companies must bring research and development facilities to Ireland not simply manufacturing!

Scigaithris

leninbenjamin wrote:

yes this is really something that needs to be put on the agenda more. i'm in NUIG studying IT and the numbers are ridiculously small. also the depts budget is constantly being slashed every year, so we now have to oldest and most troublesome PCs on campus... only in Ireland.

Read 3 or 4 years ago (don't have a link) that Huston had established a foundation for NUIG that was related to tech and film/Fx? If so, could IT researchers find monies from them pursuing Fx R&D?

luckat

Scigaithris wrote:

Read 3 or 4 years ago (don't have a link) that Huston had established a foundation for NUIG that was related to tech and film/Fx? If so, could IT researchers find monies from them pursuing Fx R&D?

Maybe. But we need scientists of all disciplines. What drives me really bats is the way the pols mouth off about it, and people kind of nod, as if *talking* has somehow magically transmuted the underfunded science departments into well-funded departments with well-qualified, well-paid staff - when the reality is that there's a flooding brain drain to Europe and America, and even the Far East, as Irish scientists leave to get work.

GuanYin

This was debated long and hard a few months ago.

Basically the government being as short sighted as ever, are trying to build a portfolio as a 4th level educated country. So they fund PhD studentships galore (or at least intend to).

However, once you get a PhD, you're basically screwed. You're over-qualified for most industry jobs that aren't administrative and even these are few and far between.

As others have pointed out career prospects for PhDs are laughable and there is little in the way tenure track (admittedly there are a few grants but they're generally gold dust and oddly usually go to the same groups of people).

The govenment has set up a system where we produce lots of PhDs who either leave the field, go into desk jobs or, in the case of the best ones, go abroad.

In the UK and US and in the major European research institutes the focus is on postdocs - you will have a research driven lab with several postdoctoral fellows and a few trainee PhD students. This means the research stays at a high level, the PhDs get trained and grants keep coming.

In Ireland, you have the exact opposite. You get labs full of students blundering through work with one or two disenchanted postdocs trying to get some decent work done while training the students.

The Irish life and physical sciences funding agencies need a right kick up the ass if Ireland is ever going to amount to anything in the science

r3nu4l

If that post wasn't so long psi, I'd give it the QFT treatment! It's incredible to think that all over the country post-docs have been commenting that there is no point in funding thousands more PhD's each year if the Government aren't going to ensure that there are jobs available for them on completion.

The funny thing is that since post-doc salaries improved in Ireland there has been alarge influx of British post-docs (who were very poorly paid in the UK). Some funding bodies in the UK have recognised this and increased funding for postdocs as a result! Instant action to prevent brain drain from the UK.

It's a pity the Irish Government aren't listening to the Scientists who have already completed PhDs and know the difficulties faced by PhD graduates. Instead of course, they are listening to the university lecturers who run labs and are happy with the post-doc status quo. After all if there are more pontential post-docs out there they won't be so picky when it comes to job hunting and will end up accepting lower salaries just to get a job.

luckat

The postdocs I know are leaving to get interesting, secure and properly paid jobs in research-centred universities abroad. I was talking to a guy last week who was actually on the verge of tears because he didn't want to leave Ireland - it was like something out of the 1950s, the emigrant boat. And this is a talented scientist.

r3nu4l

My gf has published in a top-tier journal and was shortlisted for the Royal Institution postgraduate student of the year Great Britain and Ireland award.

When it came to looking for jobs in Ireland there was nothing worth talking about in terms of job security, hence our move to the UK. At the same time I decided to quit the lab and instead entered medical communications. I didn't want to go down the post-doc route and there aren't a lot of decent, permanent, research jobs in Ireland, so I left the lab. We both ended up very reluctantly moving to the UK. We're enjoying life here but it's a just such a pity that we had to move countries to get a decent, secure job with good pay.

Zombrex

luckat wrote:

I keep reading that the Government is worried sick about Ireland's need for scientists and high-end technologists.

But I've recently been talking to some people in universities, who tell me that - due to lack of government funding - science departments are losing the most talented people, because they can't offer tenure to lecturers.

Is this the most stupid political action ever?

And why aren't there huge full-expenses scholarships offered to talented science and technology students, and help into jobs, if we want to foster that?

One of the questions I'll be asking of politicians on my doorstep.

As the high-tech firms close and leave for eastern Europe and the jobs flood out, I wonder if the current government are listening to what Moore McDowell said on the radio the other day: "It's a good time to lose an election."

My uncle worked at one of Ireland's largest universities quite high up for a few years. He said trying to get money off the government to attract the best of the best in research scientists in science, computers, engineering etc was like trying to get blood from a stone.

He contrasted this to places in American and Europe that are throwing money at the best scientists to get them to come, and as such are build up entire industries around this research

He said that the government (this was about 10 years ago) or the development bodies set up such as the IDA, just didn't get the idea that you aren't just getting the one scientists you pay vasts amount of money for, you are getting the entire ecosystem that comes with a leading scientists, his/her research and their teams.

But the government of the day was just full of idiots who could not see beyond getting re-elected.

Good to see that things have changed :rolleyes:

Raskolnikov

leninbenjamin wrote:

The lack of graduates in these areas though is quite frightening, the economic impact could be very severe, seeing as some of the most prominant employers in this Country (Dell, Microsoft, Intel i think form 20%? or something ridiculously high of our GDP) are all in this sector.

There is a pool of 440 million workers who are entitled to work in Ireland not to mention countless numbers of non EU25 students that to come to study here.

Another point, Dell are basically an assembly company. From talking to a friend, they only take on 5 or 6 IT grads a year and demand is quite high for those positions. Intel? Well, I know personally that they're undergoing a hire freeze at the moment. Not to mention, they're primarily a manufacturing company with a small IT development part in Shannon. They took on 1 (yes, really) IT grad this year. As for Microsoft? Well I have first hand experience as I'm currently in the interview stages with them. They're looking for a potential 10 people, there was again, huge demand for these places. One interesting feature I learned of their recruitment was that maybe 1/2 of the graduates weren't even Irish citizens. It goes to show that if the expertise isn't in Ireland, it can be brought in from abroad.

Ireland's labour laws for attracting skilled labour I would say are now some of the loosest in the world. The only thing we need to work on is to use similar incentives to attract the best and brightest in the research/academic field to our universities (the US is unmatched in this regard at the moment).

Raskolnikov

Agree totally with what wicknight said above as well. It may be morally/ethically dubious, but we need to reverse the brain drain so that we're the ones extracting the best and brightest of academia to our country.

Jimoslimos

To give my two cents here, I'm working as a research scientist in a R&D lab for a large multinational healthcare company in England. This same company has a much larger presence in Ireland but no R&D operations (like Raskolnikov remarked about Dell, an assembly company with a scientific name)

Therin lies the problem, with an ever increasing amount of post docs and no research amongst industry in Ireland leaving the following options;

1) Stay in academia in Ireland - high competition, poor job security and prospects
2) Emigrate

r3nu4l

Jimoslimos has perfectly summed up the situation in Ireland.

Again, if you ask the Government they will talk a lot of hot air about %age increase in funding and PhD places and the X millions of euro invested in Science and technology blah, blah, blah.

Ask the academics and they will moan a bit about not getting certain grants but overall they will say that the situation has improved dramatically over the past ten years.

No-one ever seems to ask the post-docs!

I once attended a meeting with [Government-funding body], specifically to discuss post-doc issues. When I pressed [Government-funding body]on the idea of a post-doc career track and tenure I was stonewalled. 'That's not our remit' was the answer. When I suggested that this was something that they as an agency could bring to Government as feedback they had received, I was again told, 'That's not our remit'.

Every time a post-doc asked about career progression or future plans for post-docs, there was no answer forthcoming. This was a few years ago, when the Government first announced plans to increase the number of PhD places in Science. We expressed our concerns to no avail.

As the Americans say...'You do the Math, go figure!'

GuanYin

Well the first thing is that there is no worthwhile postdoctoral representation in Ireland.

It's actually funny. When I first got into research and went looking for grants, I had huge run-ins with IRCset. I accused them of biasing their grants towards already funded labs, seeing as they only gave PhD stipends and not bench fees or consumables. Looking back, I can't help but thinks that they had the right idea (albeit probably not intentionally) seeing as they assured that the PhD was entering an already established lab with financial and (presumably) technical support. Now, I'd like to see all Irish PhD funding come without full consumables for that reason, provided of course this forces research towards a postdoc driven system.

Just to clear up mis-conceptions, the USA isn't exactly the promised land. Asking an Irish PhD graduate to move to NYC for an entry level NIH salary is asking alot (it's currently around 36k USD + benefits) - but provided they have chosen the right lab, they know that they'll get good training, publications, funding to do the work, facilities and a chance of career and salary progression. - all of which are lacking at home.

That said, the differences are startling, we (3 PIs with 12 fellows) have the same level core facilities (Real time, bioinformatics suite, confocal etc etc) between the 15 of us as an entire university faculty (over 100) did in Ireland. The last grant I got was used to supplement the salary of three of the group (try doing that in Ireland).

At the moment, I'm guessing that the government are working in the assumption that what they lose in graduate PhD's they'll make for in returning junior faculty level acadmics. This is naive. With the economy in Ireland, specifically the housing market, returning home is less and less attractive.

J.S. Pill

Quick question,

You often hear politicians carping on about 'knowledge based' economies and the need to churn out science/tech grads etc. Some politicians tend to focus a lot on numbers e.g. Tony Blair frequently reminds the public that india and China turn out 6 zillion engineering graduates a year so Britain needs to scrap sociology and make everyone study engineering (Ok i'm being slightly hyperbolic).

I presume that any company looking to locate R&D operations in any given country is going to look beyond these figures and focus on the quality and suitability of the 'knowledge base'. These figures seem to be more for public consumption.

My question is, are politicians swallowing their own BS in believing that the proctor and gambles of the world will be wowed by numbers or is there any other agenda that is being served by increasing the supply of science/tech graduates without (as seems to be the case from what everyone here is saying) paying sufficient attention to the structure of the sector?

GuanYin

J.S. Pill wrote:

My question is, are politicians swallowing their own BS in believing that the proctor and gambles of the world will be wowed by numbers or is there any other agenda that is being served by increasing the supply of science/tech graduates without (as seems to be the case from what everyone here is saying) paying sufficient attention to the structure of the sector?

It's an outdated notion. As I've said before and others have said here, the amount of private sector research in Ireland is negligible.

In the 90's, there was the notion that companies relocated here due to the high education among the people and the benefits and tax incentives bestowed by the government.

While having graduates gives a nice portfolio and allows us to enter the fray, we'll never compete with the emerging knowledge bases like Singapore and Australia. The main reason is that it is now too expensive to operate here, even before you start underpaying scientists.

The truth of the matter is, Ireland does need science graduates, but an increase in diploma level graduates and maybe MSc graduates would be sufficient to meet industrial needs.

What will attract companies to Ireland is a reputation as a front runner in the scientific world (ie. high profile scientists and publications as well as 4th level education). The government naively thinks we can get this on the cheap by pumping low level funds into 4the level education andignoring the other two.

It's basically poor politics more than anything else and has a large hint of public spin to it. But in fairness, the academics and postdocs need to organise themselves and do something about it.

Jimoslimos

psi wrote:

The truth of the matter is, Ireland does need science graduates, but an increase in diploma level graduates and maybe MSc graduates would be sufficient to meet industrial needs.

What will attract companies to Ireland is a reputation as a front runner in the scientific world (ie. high profile scientists and publications as well as 4th level education). The government naively thinks we can get this on the cheap by pumping low level funds into 4the level education andignoring the other two.

So so true and an excellent post. The fact is that we can never hope to compete with developing countries on volume of graduates churned out. Therefore the emphasis must be on producing (and keeping) extremely talented and high profile scientists.

Now the governments approach on this is to produce as much postdocs as possible and we're sure to find at least one great scientist. End result - a lot of poorly trained post-docs. In actual fact we should be selecting fewer and focusing on these, better training etc.

luckat

It's not just the chance of getting jobs in multinationals. While we have the multinationals, we have the chance of developing an *indigenous* R&D industry - but only if Irish scientists have the security and pay that they can develop their careers, make the publications, learn from the foreign scientists who come in, get into the worldwide networks - and have the security of tenure and income that they can afford to keep inside those networks.

Surely it's not just a mad dream that Ireland could be a centre of scientific excellence?

Incidentally, why don't the postdocs form their own union - or call it an 'association' if they're snobbish about unions - and start pushing and publicising?

transylman

I thought the government was trying to do something to encourage a knowledge based economy. Didn't they set up that MIT technology centre in Dublin?

J.S. Pill

psi wrote:

While having graduates gives a nice portfolio and allows us to enter the fray, we'll never compete with the emerging knowledge bases like Singapore and Australia. The main reason is that it is now too expensive to operate here, even before you start underpaying scientists.

The truth of the matter is, Ireland does need science graduates, but an increase in diploma level graduates and maybe MSc graduates would be sufficient to meet industrial needs.

I may be going slightly off topic here, but is there any truth in the notion that our government encourages the creation of run of the mill science graduates even when demand by companies for such graduates is quite low? i.e. the government tries to bolster the supply side in order to create demand rather than encouraging school leavers to go into these areas because there will be plenty of opportunities?

luckat wrote:

It's not just the chance of getting jobs in multinationals. While we have the multinationals, we have the chance of developing an *indigenous* R&D industry - but only if Irish scientists have the security and pay that they can develop their careers, make the publications, learn from the foreign scientists who come in, get into the worldwide networks - and have the security of tenure and income that they can afford to keep inside those networks.

It seems blindingly clear that we need to distinguish between producing graduates to fill IT jobs (loosely defined...) and creating a quality R&D sector but the two issues seem to be deliberately conflated in speeches etc.

By the way, whats the view of the Universities on all of this? Particularly UCD & Hugh Brady? Might it be the case that they're quite happy to accept the approach or throwing money at '4th level' without any concrete improvement in the sector's contribution to the overall economy?

luckat

The MIT Media Lab? Didn't that crash in flames?

Tom Dunne

luckat wrote:

The MIT Media Lab? Didn't that crash in flames?

Indeed it did.

On 14 January 2005, the Board of Directors of Media Lab Europe announced that the company would go into voluntary solvent liquidation. The decision was taken because its principal stakeholders, the Irish Government and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), had not reached agreement on a new funding model for the organization. (Full press release)

buddhi

While having graduates gives a nice portfolio and allows us to enter the fray, we'll never compete with the emerging knowledge bases like Singapore and Australia. The main reason is that it is now too expensive to operate here, even before you start underpaying scientists.

What will attract companies to Ireland is a reputation as a front runner in the scientific world (ie. high profile scientists and publications as well as 4th level education).

There seems to be a contradiction here.

Front runner in the scientific word, to me that means a degree of competition with other countries. You said we cant compete with Singapore and Australia, an emerging knowledge bases. How then Ireland can become a front runner?

As to the main question. In America, etc universities are adept at fund raising and attracting private sector money. In Ireland it seems that most universities expect government to fund them.


With love,

Buddhi

Edited due to the request for clarification 22.03.07

GuanYin

J.S. Pill wrote:

I may be going slightly off topic here, but is there any truth in the notion that our government encourages the creation of run of the mill science graduates even when demand by companies for such graduates is quite low? i.e. the government tries to bolster the supply side in order to create demand rather than encouraging school leavers to go into these areas because there will be plenty of opportunities?

There may be variances in standards between course, but by and large I don't think so. I've seen good and bad graduates 10 years ago and I see pretty much the same standards in graduates today. I think if there is a problem, it is that too many universites go for the rote-learning essay style exams. I know believe that continuous assessment is the way to go, but thats a different matter altogether.

It seems blindingly clear that we need to distinguish between producing graduates to fill IT jobs (loosely defined...) and creating a quality R&D sector but the two issues seem to be deliberately conflated in speeches etc.

Yes and no. By and large both fields have an aspect of development to them and the point is that all the jobs lack development and are closer to production line jobs. I'd even go so far as to say that its jobs for graduates that are most sorely lacking.

By the way, whats the view of the Universities on all of this? Particularly UCD & Hugh Brady? Might it be the case that they're quite happy to accept the approach or throwing money at '4th level' without any concrete improvement in the sector's contribution to the overall economy?

It's a hard one to say for sure but certainly their actions seem to go with that. After all, they get government funding for students, not employees but from my experience, the competition for internal resources and hierarchy between academics is the main reason for lack of focus here.

Interestingly, in the US, many academic researchers must find their own salary funding through grants. Perhaps it's the salaried positions of acaemics that holds us back?

buddhi wrote:

There seems to be a contradiction here.

Does there? How so?

buddhi wrote:

As to the main question. In America, etc universities are adept at fund raising and attracting private sector money. In Ireland it seems that most universities expect government to fund them

The money in Ireland is "new" so there have been less people in the position of patron i the past. With all our new millionaires, this may change in years to come.

buddhi

Psi,

Thank you for your comments. Please check my edited post for the answer to your question.


With love,

Buddhi

GuanYin

buddhi wrote:

There seems to be a contradiction here.

Front runner in the scientific word, to me that means a degree of competition with other countries. You said we cant compete with Singapore and Australia, an emerging knowledge bases. How then Ireland can become a front runner?

Singapore and Australia offer very cheap start up and overheads compared to Ireland. What I meant was (and this was more to do with the context of the question about whether numbers of graduates will attract companies) that companies have no reason to come here over places like those when Singapore (for example) has just as many scientists available and is attracting top foreign scientists with huge salaries and funding set ups.

If we could do the same, then we would at least level out the playing field. Front running in the scientififc world means performing science at the highest level, not so much attracting business, but then again, that will follow.

Look at Cambridge in MA, USA. Dreadfully expensive place to conduct business but you have so many top academics that the science in the area is cutting edge. You get lots of start up companies and you big biotech R&D facilities moving in.

So perhaps I should have said, "as is, Ireland will never compete"

luckat

psi wrote:

Look at Cambridge in MA, USA. Dreadfully expensive place to conduct business but you have so many top academics that the science in the area is cutting edge. You get lots of start up companies and you big biotech R&D facilities moving in.

Exactly. We don't need to concentrate *just* on the obvious moneymaking science grads, but on a standard of excellence in science departments - a scientific culture equivalent to the Irish literary culture, which spreads from hugely successful chicklit bestsellers like Marian Keyes across to whodunnit bestsellers like John Connolly and out to the far edge of literary bestsellers like John Banville, playwrights like Frank McGuinness and filmmakers like Neil Jordan.

We need the quantum physicists, and we need the nano-nanoo types, and the cutting-edge inventors, and the good earthy scientists who can work for top-of-the-line R&D companies.

But we're not going to get them until the government starts paying for them.