Electronic Retaining Fences - Cruel or Not ?

Redjeep!

Hi,

We've just got a Lab/Collie puppy to replace our last dog who got ran over outside of our house. I want to be sure that the same thing doesn't happen again as we were absolutely devastated by it, so was thinking of installing one of the electronic retaining fences where you lead a wire around the garden and the dog wears a special collar and receives an mild electric shock when it goes too close to the fence.

My garden is quite large (a bit over 1/2 acre) and so she'd have quite some space to roam around. It would be difficult to fit a high enough fence especially as we always leave the gate open. Three sides of the garden face onto farmland (and have a four foot high fence) and at the front of the garden is a very quite country lane and has a three foot high fence.

I'm a bit concerned as to whether the collars are considered cruel or not.

Whats the general opinion ?

Thanks.

Alfasudcrazy

I too was concerned about that aspect when I installed the electric fence on my property. I need not have worried. While the dogs may get a few shocks at first they will soon learn to stay away from it. Mine even stay away now with the collars off - but I normally have them on full time when they are out but take them off when going for walks or when they are in bed and locked in.

I have two 8 month old dobermans.

I would be concerned though to hear you always leave your gate open. If the dog learns to dash through an open gate thus getting only a very brief shock I am sure it will render your fence useless.

The fence only works best when placed near a visible boundary - obviously an open gate isn't
one and my dobermans would be out in a jif if they seen another dog for instance as they did yesterday but as the gate was closed they could not get out.;)

No I don't think they are cruel. We too have had a dog knocked down and killed outside our gate and I could not have large excitable dogs like dobermans unless I was sure they could not get out. I don't worry with the electric fence.

Redjeep!

Thanks Alfasud.

Sounds like a good idea then. I'll note your comment about the gate and perhaps we'll need to keep it closed for a while. Unfortunately, I can't see us having the discipline to closed it all the time as it's across the drive way and I really don't want to have electric gates installed (always thought they were unfriendly).

I wonder if there's any way to put multiple wires across the gate so that the dog would have a longer area to run through and get multiple shocks....hmmm...I'll have to think about that one.

My intention is to combine this with training the dog not to go out of the garden, so hopefully she'll learn not to go past the gateway.

(BTW Alfasuds were really cool).

peasant

Just close the blooming gate !

While an electric fence is not necessarily cruel, it isn't 100% safe either.
We used to have one for a while, and I found it to be just not reliable enough. The wire breaks, batteries fail, etc. ...you still can't really leave the dog unsupervised.
We now have a proper wire mesh fence all around and that is much better.

macshadow

Redjeep! wrote:

Thanks Alfasud.

Sounds like a good idea then. I'll note your comment about the gate and perhaps we'll need to keep it closed for a while. Unfortunately, I can't see us having the discipline to closed it all the time as it's across the drive way and I really don't want to have electric gates installed (always thought they were unfriendly).

I wonder if there's any way to put multiple wires across the gate so that the dog would have a longer area to run through and get multiple shocks....hmmm...I'll have to think about that one.

My intention is to combine this with training the dog not to go out of the garden, so hopefully she'll learn not to go past the gateway.

(BTW Alfasuds were really cool).

You can adjust the setting of the fence to give a shock at say 20,10 or 5 feet from the boundry.you must put the fence all around the property as in it has to be a circuit.

macshadow

Thats if it's the same one we're talking about where the dog wears a collar that gives the shock?

Alfasudcrazy

I kept the wire about 6 feet from the gate so the effect is that the dogs will only go to within about 10 feet of the gate and mine will not even walk through it on a lead - they have to be driven out of the yard in a vehicle.

Only one wire is possible because as said it has to be a complete loop back to the control box. I the wire breaks usually a beeper will sound on the control box to alert you. I have mine installed about 6 months and it was broken once when a mouse/ rat ate it. I left the wire overground on purpose to make it easier to find breaks if and when they occcur but I am sure the grass will grow over it before long.

The batteries in the collars normally last about 8 months.;)

Redjeep!

Thanks everyone.

I'll try and keep the gate closed but, being realistic it's not going to be closed 100% of the time and I don't want the dog to run out onto the road if it ever gets left open by accident. I think that I'll lay the electric wire around the top of the existing fence and then under the driveway. My thought was that if I lay a matrix of wire under driveway between the gateposts then there'll be a wider area that she'll avoid, hopefully preventing her running through the open gate in a 'Steve McQueen' moment.

It'd still only be one continous wire, just in a loop, kinda like this :


______________________________________________...............
............... ___________________________________!...............
............... !___________________________________...............
.....GatePost ___________________________________! GatePost........
............... !_________________________________________________..........


BTW I am talking about the type where the dog would wear a collar.

Alfasudcrazy

I am sure I recall reading in the instruction manual the any overlaping or s shapes in the wire has the effect of nullifying the signal for that portion of the fence - someting to do with the radio waves cancelling each other out.:)

Our man in Havana

Have never used one myself - my friend who often posts on here put the coller herself to see just how bad the shocks were before she would use them on the dogs - would you be prepaired to try that? She also took time off of work to train the dogs - think of it this way if the dog gets excited & runs towards the fence if it runs through the pain barrier once its away from the fence the pain stops but the dog will be unable to get back into the home as the shocks will confuse the dog - just something to think about - they are not a quick & easy solution & your dog will need to be trained.

Do you have a back garden? If not can you not fence the back off? Thats what we have done & I have 10 dogs.

macshadow

I trained my dogs over three days.There's a video that comes with the fence
and flags that you put a few feet in from where the fence is.
You take the dog up to the flags and shake the flag and say NO! and repeat
all around the property before you use the fence.
There are five settings on the collar,it's not cruel IMO,it's a very mild shock which the dog will only need to feel once or twice before it gets the message.

franksm

Got any URLs for these things ?

My parents back home have just got a lurcher - but it has escaped a few time. It's a detached house so before looking into blocking off the rear garden, I want to find out more about the radio collars too

macshadow

www.radiofence.ie www.petsafe.ie
I got mine from radiofence.ie i can't remember exactly what i paid but it was
over two hundred.
I looked into blocking of back garden too but nearly fainted when i got the quote.

Alfasudcrazy

I paid about €345 for the unit 6 months ago. It only includes one collar. Any extra collars you need cost €90 each.

LisaW

The following is a detailed document explaining why electric shock collars should be banned. It makes very interesting reading. The following organisations agree that electric collars are inadvisable:

• British Small Animal Veterinary Association and British Veterinary Association
• Scottish SPCA
• Scottish Kennel Club
• Kennel Club
• Dogs Trust
• RSPCA
• Blue Cross
• Association of Pet Dog Trainers
• Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
• The Guide Dogs for the Blind Association
• Association of Chief Police Officers
• Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland
• UK Armed Forces

electricshockcollars

peasant

I think there is a major difference between the two different types of shock collars, the ones with remote control and the ones without.

The ones with are certainly cruel, inefficient and dangerous as an "educational" tool, as it is virtually impossible to train a dog correctly with them. They are also banned in a lot of countries.

The electric fence on the other hand, once the training has been done properly, doesn't shock the dog at all. It issues a warning beep first when the dog comes to close to the fence ...a well trained dog will then stay away.

Having said all that ...there is still a lot of things that can go wrong, malfunctions, shorts, wire breaks, dogs getting caught within the punishment area and being shocked permanently.
The risk increases the longer the dog is left unsupervised.

The only good thing that can be said about the radio fence is that it is better than no fence ...especially on large areas where a proper fence is above the means of the owner.

We had a radio fence for about a year and I was never happy with it. The dog escaped twice and a few more times I detected a malfunction before he did. We never had any accidents, nor was the dog shocked (he turned around at the warning beep), but we never really trusted the system and the dog was never left unsupervised (at least from a distance) while outside
So in the end a few sacrifices were made and a proper wire mesh fence bought ...which is the only type of fence that gets my recommendation

macshadow

I agree it's not ideal but as peasant says it's better than no fence.
My dogs haven't used the collar in over a year,the fence isn't even pluged in.
I couldn't open the link above but if it's the remote control type i've seen them in use in the states on dogs for customs,police ect.
They use them to get the dog to do a task instead of not to do something which i think is horrible,training should be fun for a dog ie using it's natural drive.

LisaW

The document speaks about the three types of electric collars,

1. Remote control "training" collar
2. Anti bark collar
3. Radio fence type collars

This is an exert from the document

One of the major risks of using a shock collar is that the dog associates the shock with something other than its own behaviour. This danger is emphasised by animal behaviour experts.1 , 9, 13, 14

The dog can make unexpected associations between the shock and something in the environment at the moment the shock is received, resulting in an increase, rather than decrease, in problems such as aggression, non-cooperation or phobia.

The unintended association could be another dog or other animal, a person or something inanimate such as a location. For example, the dog may associate the owner or trainer 3 or the owner’s back garden with the shock, thus damaging their relationship, or resulting in intense fear or aggression in relation to the supposed cause of the shock.9

The dog may completely misinterpret (from the trainer’s perspective) the reason for the shock. The Kennel Club (UK) reports a case of an Irish Setter fitted with an anti-bark shock collar for 5 years, who learned that if she kept barking long enough the shocks would stop. The shock collar therefore resulted in longer bouts of barking rather than less barking. In addition, the dog had open sores on her neck due to the shocks.15

Similarly, when dogs get shocks from ‘invisible fences’ at their garden boundary, they may learn to associate any people or dogs approaching the boundary with the shocks 9 and begin to threaten, fear or even attack approaching individuals.

The unintended consequences of electric shock training can be very serious. The dog may well become angry, defensive or fearful rather than obedient. The Kennel Club reports the case of a woman who was attempting to use shock collars to prevent her three Alsatian-cross dogs from running away from her on walks. On one occasion she accidentally shocked her dogs when a small dog was walking by. The dogs thereafter became afraid of all small dogs and subsequently killed a Shi Tzu they encountered on a walk.15

macshadow

I can leave my dogs out in the garden with the gate open and no collars on
and they steer clear of the gate because they associate crossing the gate
with the shock.
It does take time to train them properly.

The remote control collar is crazy because of too many variables in the dogs behavior in general use.

LisaW

]

peasant wrote:

once the training has been done properly, doesn't shock the dog at all

While I can see you're against electric collars, I have always had a problem with the point is that once the dog is "trained" not to cross the fence no shocks occur.

The important point is that the dog HAS to be shocked a number of times to learn to avoid the boundry. This is a basic learning principle called positive punishment. Which is the administration of an aversive to reduce a behaviour. The shock needs to be enough of an aversive. If the reward on the other side of the fence is GREATER than the aversive then the fence won't work. The dog will learn to cross the fence to get to whatever is stimulating them. E.G. sheep or bitch in season etc.

What people don't seem to realise is that a well stimulated dog, i.e. one that has plenty of interaction with their owners in the form of games and training and decent walks every day doesn't need acres to run in. They will sleep/snooze the rest of the time. So on occasion when the dog has to be outside without supervision a run is a safer alternative for both the dog and everyone else.

I could under no circumstances ever consider a situation where I would allow any of my 4 dogs to be shocked no matter what.

peasant

Similarly, when dogs get shocks from ‘invisible fences’ at their garden boundary, they may learn to associate any people or dogs approaching the boundary with the shocks 9 and begin to threaten, fear or even attack approaching individuals.

I don't really want to defend these fences, because I don't like them either, but ...

Once the training is carried out as stated in the literature and in the video that comes with these fences, the wrong association as quoted above shouldn't really happen.

The way you're supposed to train the dog is quite intensive. First you put up the boundary flags along the line where the collar starts beeping. Then, without the collar, over a few days you train the dog not to cross the line of flags, by telling it "no" every time it attempts to do so. Then you introduce the collar. In most cases, the alarm beep is already enough to keep the dog away and also it learns to associate the beep with "no" and ultimately with you. This again you keep up over a few days.

While training, there will be the point where the dog strays beyond the flags and beyond the beep into the shock area. It is essential that you are there when that happens and tell it "NO!" while it does so. This way any shock that it will receive will also be associated with "no" and with you.

When we had the fence, we did the training as described and our dog got one shock and one shock only ...and that was it.

(on the other hand he was also clever enough to find out about any malfunction in a flash and was gone before we even knew that the fence wasn't working)

The cruelty takes place, when people just install the fence willy-nilly and leave the dog to figure it out for itself. As the proper training is quite time intensive, this unfortunatley happens in quite a lot of cases.

LisaW

It is essential that you are there when that happens and tell it "NO!" while it does so. This way any shock that it will receive will also be associated with "no" and with you.

I find this comment incredibly worrying. Why on earth would anybody wish for their dog to associate an electric shock with them when they say "No"???.... There are many situations where owners will say "No" to the dog. Should the dog now expect an electric shock every time they hear "No"?

After "training" or more correctly conditioning this, it is entirely possible for a dog to react by biting their owner when they say "NO" in an attempt to circumvent an electric shock.

This comment just proves exactly why electric collars should never be used regardless of whether they are anti bark, remote control or boundry collars.

TOUCHSTONEBGLS

I have used both the training collars and the electric fence. Neither are more cruel than the alternatives when used in proper perspective.
Electric fence: I use it threaded through my existing fence which encloses 11 acres. This stops the hounds that will climb the existing fence. A hound that climbs a fence may be hit by a car or come to harm in too many other painful and cruel ways. Training is the key to success without cruelty. Having the wire strung through the fence makes it easy to find and repair breaks. Batteries must be changed regularly and the unit has a replace battery light. Used correctly it is a blessing. Not a substitute for a fence with hounds in the country.
Training collar: Training collars are useful to train a dog from running deer or other off game. Once a hound takes to chasing deer they will likely be led to their doom. Farm dogs, traffic, coyotes will be far more cruel than a ten to fifteen minute session that teaches the hound that deer, fox, or yote scent is negative scent. I find a deer out in an open field and then let the hound find its way across the scent. When it barks in and starts running the scent I simply bump the controller to give the dog a quick jolt. The behavior ends immediately. A couple more trips across deer scent and the behavior will likely end. Overshocking the dog would be cruel. When used properly it will stop a behavior that can likely lead a small hound to much worse. They are never to be used to stop aggression. They are not to be used for basic obedience. They do however serve a function that can be a blessing to a hunting companion.

peasant

TOUCHSTONEBGLS wrote:

Training collar: Training collars are useful to train a dog from running deer or other off game. Once a hound takes to chasing deer they will likely be led to their doom. Farm dogs, traffic, coyotes will be far more cruel than a ten to fifteen minute session that teaches the hound that deer, fox, or yote scent is negative scent. I find a deer out in an open field and then let the hound find its way across the scent. When it barks in and starts running the scent I simply bump the controller to give the dog a quick jolt. The behavior ends immediately. A couple more trips across deer scent and the behavior will likely end. Overshocking the dog would be cruel. When used properly it will stop a behavior that can likely lead a small hound to much worse. They are never to be used to stop aggression. They are not to be used for basic obedience. They do however serve a function that can be a blessing to a hunting companion.

Weird ....

In another post you said this:

My interest in the United Kennel Club registry is based on their commitment to developing TOTAL DOGS in the breed specimens. Dogs correct in physical and working characteristics. Beagles with correct hunt characteristics, terriers that go to ground, herding dogs that herd, etc.

So you specifically breed Beagles with strong hunting instincts only to shock them when they follow these instincts.


Hmmm ....

We were thinking about getting the fence.. however, what worries me is, what happens if the dog gets the shock and keeps going? He then won't come back in..

Has this happened to anyone?

peasant

original_psycho wrote:

We were thinking about getting the fence.. however, what worries me is, what happens if the dog gets the shock and keeps going? He then won't come back in..

Has this happened to anyone?

Yepp ...

He actually got out while the fence wasn't working, but he still was too afraid to come back in (tempting him to get out were sheep, not tempting him to get back in was one very irate owner )

Had to go outside, catch him and physically heave him over the feckin fence.

I've also seen quite few wandering dogs around that still carried the electric collar.

TOUCHSTONEBGLS

Peasant, Our beagles are for running rabbits and hare. Running deer is illegal and also frowned upon by deer hunters. Some deer hunters will go so far as to shoot a hound for running deer. Training them off of the negative scent correctly has no effect on their ability to run the desired game. Beagles that continually go back to running deer are sold as pets and not used in our breeding program. Some never do run a deer and that is the ideal. Pups that are interested in deer scent are scolded in an attempt to stop the wrong behavior from developing. An adult hound that runs a deer must be stopped very quickly. Sometimes those things that seem the weirdest are those things that we understand least.

Doby

original_psycho wrote:

We were thinking about getting the fence.. however, what worries me is, what happens if the dog gets the shock and keeps going? He then won't come back in..

Has this happened to anyone?

Yes, this has happened, but firstly let me defend wireless fences.

I now have a beagle (recognised as most stubborn dog on the planet) and a dober/roth cross (highly intelligent, but you say please after each command).

Both dogs moved from a fenced in garden to an open plan .5 acre 30 meters from a main road. These dogs are only alive because of the fence.

Previous entries have hit the nail on the head. You must train the dog, otherwise you may as well wear the collar yourself.

The dogs both now recognise the signal from the color which preceeds any shock, and will revert back to a safe distance. This does not deter them from roaring at the local cat, but they won't cross the line.

twice the Dober corssed the line, however in both cases she stopped on the other side and waited to be returned - possibly because she was unsure if there were other warnings further on.

Simply crossing the wires and taping them together will allow you to create open zones and cross overs to allow greater movement. We have a very complicated figure of 8's around flower beds, and are easliy able to rearrange (providing the dogs with a short retraining session to establish new patterns).

While I understand peoples distaste for such treatements, I have lost several good pets to this road, and this is the one that proves the best comfort and peace of mind.

Alfasudcrazy

I agree the radio fence is a great invention and gives me great peace of mind. I do think however that the boundary wire should be placed at or very near to a visible boundary - which in most cases as in mine is the perimiter of the entire property.

That will lessen the danger of the dog crossing the line as the visible boundary will already have slowed him down.;)