Best Lyricist in Hip-Hop!

Orizio

Soul on Ice and Rassassination were both hailed by both hip-hop fans and critics on their release, and righlty so, the lyrical content in both was outstanding.

But seriously, have you actually listened to Rassassination?

So major props to Ras for coming out with a style that was completely different.

Completelt different in the west yes, the lyricism in the east coast was incredible in the mid 90's.But as I said I'm not doubting that Ras was strong lyrically on his debut, and even on his follow up albums just that he is not as strong as the Gizah, Boots and Nas.

[Off topic:] You talk about beats, yet still hail Nas. Outside of Illmatic, he releases a few well produced singles from his following albums but the rest lacked depth and substance with 'less then stellar' production by the likes of Track Masters and Diddy.[/off topic]

Nas production is dodgy as of late, but IWW was well produced, as was The Lost Tapes and Stillmatic and various other tracks off his other more mundane albums.Also some of his unreleased work is exceptional in both production and lyrics.No comparison between Ras and Nas' beat choice.

And that makes him a bad lyrist in your eyes? :rolleyes:

When did I say he was a bad lyricist?

So this thread has turned from 'Best Lyricist' (which you constantly ignore) into 'Best Artist' (which you think the thread is about) now into 'Best Production'

I'm not constantly ignoring anyting, I've already told you earlier on mulitply times why Ras isn't the best lyricist.If your going to debate, debate-this inability of yours to read properly is boring me.

Eh, it was actually you who started about Nas' back catalogue

Nah afraid not...

Raekwon wrote:

Anyway your argument that they haven't released decent material in a few years holds no water. What has Nas released since Illmatic that was any way decent? Or Kool G Rap? Or AZ? Or any in your 'Holy Trinity of Lyricism'?

and claimed how he, together with Kool G Rap, had 4 acknowledgeable classic albums between them.

Right-after you mentioned Nas' catalogue.:rolleyes:

So Ras admitted he was a sell out? Any proof of this? :rolleyes: How do you know that 'Ghetto Fabulous' was not a piss take? Ras has always been underground, plus if you listened to any of Ras Kass' material you will notice that he constantly takes the piss out of main stream rap.

Its on one of his latest mixtapes,I assumed you paid attention to his lyrics.There is no reason to think Ghetto Fabalous was a pisstake.

Peter Collins

Chuck D from Public Enemy, without a doubt:

Some examples:

"It's weak to speak and blame somebody else
When you destroy yourself
First nothing's worse than a mother's pain
Of a son slain in Bensonhurst

Never to say I never know or had a clue
Word was heard, plus hard on the boulevard
Lies, scandalizin', basin'
Traits of hate who's celebratin' wit satan?
I rope a dope the evil with righteous
Bobbin' and weavin' and let the good get even"

- Welcome to the Terrordome (Fear of a Black Planet)

DISCUSSION OVER

Orizio

Beefeater wrote:

Nas on talent is a great lyricist(sure why do you think i mentioned him amongst a few). I think we can all agree that Nas sold out (ie. Nastradamous, havent heard the new one. he claims to be real but still still loves the bling, is planning a reality tv show for f*ck sake). he's still a good lyricist but he did dumb it down a little so his dollars would double as Jigga would say.

In relation to Rass Kass, i have heard Rassasination is total crap

I don't think Nas dumbed it down.Even with the pink suits IWW was every bit as good as Illmatic lyrically.

As for Rassassination, yes it is practically inaudible.A testament to how not to produce an album.

Orizio

spacecoyote wrote:

yeah was gonna mention Masta Ace, he checks most of the boxes required to be classed as one of the best MCs of all time

Like KRS-One, his lyrics can be a little simple.No vocabulary really.Saying that I think the more basic MC's like Masta Ace and Devin The Dude are under rated lyrically.

I feel obliged to point out old Andre 3000, if just for the opening line...

Now, my oral demonstration be like clitoral stimulation
to the female gender, ain't nothin better
Let me know when it's wet enough to enter
If not I'll wait, because the future of the world depends on
Therefore, if not the child we raise gon' have that nigga syndrome
Or will it know to be the hard regardless of the skintone
I really feel that if we tune it, it just might get picked on
Or will it give a **** about what others say and get gone
The alienators cause we different keep your hands to the sky
Like Sounds of Blackness when I practice what a preach ain't no lie

Beefeater

Orizio wrote:

I don't think Nas dumbed it down.Even with the pink suits IWW was every bit as good as Illmatic lyrically.

As for Rassassination, yes it is practically inaudible.A testament to how not to produce an album.

For the past few years I dont think Nas has tried so hard with his lyrics. Im hearing he wants to release another album this year which seems like hes rushing it and isnt putting enough time into his lyrics. "Dumbed down" in comparison to his better lyrics.

Beefeater

Orizio wrote:

Like KRS-One, his lyrics can be a little simple.No vocabulary really.Saying that I think the more basic MC's like Masta Ace and Devin The Dude are under rated lyrically.

I feel obliged to point out old Andre 3000, if just for the opening line...

Ya i'd agree with you on the simplicity and lack of depth in vocabulary but he puts it all together really well. Again better artist than lyricist. Still songs like Alphabet Soup, Soda & Soap are very inventive. and of course "this is hard sh*t to follow, you cant spit n*gga so you obviously must swallow".

Andre has some great lyrics but OF COURSE hes the biggest clown/laughing stock in hip-hop according to some :rolleyes:

O.C= great lyricist

Beefeater

Chino XL - No complex....one of the best lyrical tracks around

Raekwon

Orizio wrote:

But seriously, have you actually listened to Rassassination?

Have you? (Apart from the few downloads that you strung together over the last week)

Orizio wrote:

But as I said I'm not doubting that Ras was strong lyrically on his debut, and even on his follow up albums

You actually said: ''As an all round lyrist Ras Kass doesn't come into the equation'' You then went onto slate his albums. So, contradicing yourself, you now claim that you are not doubting that he is strong lyrically on his albums.

Orizio wrote:

Nas production is dodgy as of late, but IWW was well produced, as was The Lost Tapes and Stillmatic and various other tracks off his other more mundane albums.Also some of his unreleased work is exceptional in both production and lyrics.No comparison between Ras and Nas' beat choice.

Yeah as late as 'It Was Written' in '96

Orizio wrote:

When did I say he was a bad lyricist?

Again.............when you said that he doesn't come into the equation where lyrics are concerned.

Orizio wrote:

I'm not constantly ignoring anyting, I've already told you earlier on mulitply times why Ras isn't the best lyricist.If your going to debate, debate-this inability of yours to read properly is boring me.

This is not a debate, you are just imposing your option on everybody, how is that debating? It seems that no MC is good enough unless he gets your seal of approval. For the last time, this thread is called 'Best Lyricists in Hip Hop'. It is my opinion that Ras Kass is the best lyricist. That is just an opinion. You don't like it? So what?

Orizio wrote:

Nah afraid not...

You said (referring to Ras & Canibus) ''What exactly has either done in the last 10 years?''. You did mean their back catalogue right? So you simply want to ignoring the fact that they have released around 15 albums (& other various mixtapes and side projects) between them?

Orizio wrote:

Its on one of his latest mixtapes,I assumed you paid attention to his lyrics.There is no reason to think Ghetto Fabalous was a pisstake.

No quotes, name of track, not even the name of the mix tape. Solid evidence, good job

Peter Collins

Here's a rap about Nas for you:

Nas is crap
Stop talking pony & trap

Orizio

You actually said: ''As an all round lyrist Ras Kass doesn't come into the equation'' You then went onto slate his albums. So, contradicing yourself, you now claim that you are not doubting that he is strong lyrically on his albums.

He doen't come into the equation compared to the top three I mentioned,and for that matter BIG and Rakim.He is class behind them but still a very good lyricist.Now I'm sick or repeating my arguments to a Ras fanboy like yourself, so lets just put it down to opinion.

Raekwon

Orizio wrote:

He doen't come into the equation compared to the top three I mentioned,and for that matter BIG and Rakim.He is class behind them but still a very good lyricist.Now I'm sick or repeating my arguments to a Ras fanboy like yourself, so lets just put it down to opinion.

Okay, as I said before, this is all about opinions. So you stick to yours and I'll stick to mine.

(P.S.: I'm not a fanboy, I just think it would be unfair to dismiss an excellent lyrist from this discussion).

Peter Collins

I love that Nas lyric

"Don't play me out
cos I'm as sound as a brown trout"

Seaneh

so we're all agreed?

Prozack Turner is the winner?


speaking of which... he's playing the trinity rooms in limerick tonight.

evil_seed

Peter Collins wrote:

Chuck D from Public Enemy, without a doubt:

Some examples:

"It's weak to speak and blame somebody else
When you destroy yourself
First nothing's worse than a mother's pain
Of a son slain in Bensonhurst

Never to say I never know or had a clue
Word was heard, plus hard on the boulevard
Lies, scandalizin', basin'
Traits of hate who's celebratin' wit satan?
I rope a dope the evil with righteous
Bobbin' and weavin' and let the good get even"

- Welcome to the Terrordome (Fear of a Black Planet)

DISCUSSION OVER

FINALLY!!! I can't believe it took 2 & 1/2 pages

Danny

Big Daddy Kane emerged during hip-hop's massive creative expansion of the late '80s, and was the ultimate lover man of rap's first decade. In possession of a prodigious rhyming technique honed from numerous B-boy battles, Big Daddy Kane is widely considered to be among the finest rappers of the "Golden Age” of hip-hop.

As part of Marley Marl's legendary Juice Crew, he co-wrote classic rhymes for fellow members like Biz Markie. With contemporaries like Rakim and Kool G Rap he represented the greatest leap forward for the art of emceeing in hip-hop. His stylish wardrobe, gold jewelry, and sophisticated sex-drenched persona was enormously influential on countless future would-be players.
The following quote from Ice – T in 2006 probably best sums up Kane’s legendary status in the world of hip-hop:

“To me, Big Daddy Kane is still today one of the best rappers. I would put Big Daddy Kane against any rapper in a battle. Jay-Z, Nas, Eminem, any of them. Kane is one of the most incredible lyricists and he will devour you on the mic. I don't want to try to out-rap Big Daddy Kane. Big Daddy Kane can rap circles around cats”

Seaneh

Actually I'm going to have to re-cast my vote, loving zack and all, but Eyedea is sick!

so, yeah.


I vote Eyedea

Evzer

Not a chance prozack turner is the best lyricist in hip-hop. He's mediocre at best.

kanibus

1. Canibus:D


GZA, Nas, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Wordsworth(sooooo underated), Pharoah Monche, Black Thought, Common, Chino XL, Rass Kass, Royce Da 5'9, Inspectah Deck, Meth, Ghostface, Raekwon, Guru, Dead Prez, Immortal Technique, Kool G Rap...

thats whats left today...

Although Big L is the greatest rapper of all time.:D

hoooooooot

eminem nuff said

Klimseven

Canibus is a perfect example of a brilliant lyricist with little or nothing to say, besides what a brilliant lyricist he is.

As far as lyricism, combined with the presence and content to actually make it worth anything...I'd say GZA, Mf-Doom, Nas, Aesop Rock, Chuck D, Jeru tha Damaja (in no order). I'd also mention Ghostface since the dude can say anything and I'd still think it's genius.

And without Rakim emceeing wouldn't have reached the levels it has, period.

Beefeater

Klimseven wrote:

Canibus is a perfect example of a brilliant lyricist with little or nothing to say, besides what a brilliant lyricist he is.

I'd also mention Ghostface since the dude can say anything and I'd still think it's genius.

Isnt that a little hypocritical-so if ghostface says nothing relevant its genius while if canibus does, its not.

Canibus actually has a lot to say, alot of the time its is wrapped in metaphors and battle raps(which are different to others battle raps). also alot of his music takes a philosophical point of view. Yes, there is battle raps in most songs but he is usually taking aim at a groupo of people than just LL COol J or Eminem for example. songs such as Drama A T, M sea cresy, indibisibe, nigganometry, poet laureate ll to name a few prove he does have plenty to say. Still definately not the best artist though.

Klimseven

Every word Ghostface says is more relevent that tired, repetitive battle raps. I never said he could say something irrelevant, I meant he could say something that wasn't lyrically loaded with metaphor, etc and still pull it off...though he uses metaphor a lot and is a great lyricist. He has the character, voice and presence to pull his s hit off, something Canibus has little of.

Canibus got boring years ago. He's stuck in his little battle rap box. We've seen you have skill with wordplay, now use it to actually say something...

Evzer

^totally agree with that. I'd also like to add that ll cool j absolutely destroyed canibus in their beef!

Beefeater

Evzer wrote:

^totally agree with that. I'd also like to add that ll cool j absolutely destroyed canibus in their beef!

Isnt it widely accepted that Canibus destroyed Cool J. Not really into beefs so have only heard Second rOUND ko which was hilarious."99% of your fans wear high heels", "U studied my rhyme"


Whats useful to say, in my opinion alot of his thoughts on philosophy, commercial rap etc are useful.He didnt get boring years ago, his best album is his 2nd last to date and his ideas for Poet Laureate Infinity in creating an infinite rhyme(something which hasnt been done before) is hardly boring. Ghostface is good too, dont get me wrong-great lyricist.

2040

then ll came back with "99% of your fans don't exist." Ding Ding.

As for best lyricist? Fvck it, i think alot of people leave eminem out because they don't want to be seen to agree with angry 16 year olds. He's a good lyricist.

Klimseven

*was, he's a f ucking joke now.

Beefeater

"99% of your fans dont exist" isnt a very good diss at all. canibus was getting at the fact that ll used his body, and 'sex' oriernted songs to sell. all ll is doing is taking canibus' rhyme and saying something that really doesnt mean anything basically. Even so, I do not really care for diss songs so much.
Maybe people should actually listen to Rip The Jacker!

Yeah Eminem(even for the piece of **** he makes now) is a very good lyricist

Evzer

dont go taking one line out of the tune and saying it made up the whole track.What did canibus do the whole track besides make some semi-homoerotic references to ll cool j's body while simultaneously calling him gay, and giving out to him for smoking weed.shocking stuff. on That tune 4,3,2,1 which canibus is also on ll has an amazing verse dissing him

Beefeater

Evzer wrote:

dont go taking one line out of the tune and saying it made up the whole track.What did canibus do the whole track besides make some semi-homoerotic references to ll cool j's body while simultaneously calling him gay, and giving out to him for smoking weed.shocking stuff. on That tune 4,3,2,1 which canibus is also on ll has an amazing verse dissing him

I said i havent heard the song,and as I said everywhere i see it on the internet it says Canibus won, but saying that line won(DING DING) is stupid. the weed part-he's giving out to him for saying he was trying to put out this goody two shoes image(against drugs etc) but was still taking them-so he was a Liar in Canibus' view. It's kind of sad mocking someone featuring on your song about a microphone too. this is stupid, this has kind of gone off the best lyricist topic

FTA69

I'm all about Mos Def these days.

Kurupt was unreal as well.

Klimseven

Mos Def nowadays?? Are you serious? Mos Def hasn't released anything half way decent in years.

Black on Both Sides and Black Star were both brilliant albums, but today he isn't doing s hit...

FTA69

I said I'm currently listening to his stuff, doesn't necessarily mean his recent stuff. Blackstar was indeed the height of him IMO.

Sm0ke

Evzer wrote:

dont go taking one line out of the tune and saying it made up the whole track.What did canibus do the whole track besides make some semi-homoerotic references to ll cool j's body while simultaneously calling him gay, and giving out to him for smoking weed.shocking stuff. on That tune 4,3,2,1 which canibus is also on ll has an amazing verse dissing him

1. on the song 4,3,2,1 LL heard canibus verse and slated him because canibus said he wanted to borrow the tattoo of a mic from ll's arm. ll made him change his verse and then promised in turn to change his own verse... which he didnt "a bitch move something a homo rapper would do" so that song is backstabbing and invalid.

2. its obvius to any rap fan that Canibus's track was better than ll's its actually regarded as one of the top diss songs of all time. LL's track was ****. he just acted hype and made it look like he had already won without saying much.

3. LL is on a big label and got far better distribution so no radio station was playing 2nd round knockout. therefore LL won the beef. wasnt anything to with lyrically beating him but he did get his stuff on the radios so all u teeny boppers would just hear LL's verse and asume he won. whereas he said absolutly nothing in his verse!

~Canibus won lyrically but lost by not getting his stuff heard...... Eminem crushed him aswell if memory serves.

Strange_Fruit

My favourite lyricists gotta be

Big Daddy Kane
canibus
Gza
Masta Ace

Klimseven

FTA69 wrote:

I said I'm currently listening to his stuff, doesn't necessarily mean his recent stuff. Blackstar was indeed the height of him IMO.

Oh right, I get ye. Yeah Black on Both Sides and Black Star were both brilliant, but he's gone off the boil lately imo.

I forgot about Masta Ace actually, though I wouldn't say he'd be known for his lyrical skills primarily (watch the Lyricist Lounge battle he was in, he even admitted in Disposable Arts that he was embarrassed). Slaughtahouse is one of the most underrated and overlooked golden age hip-hop albums ever released imo. Absolute classic.

Evzer

Sm0ke wrote:

1. on the song 4,3,2,1 LL heard canibus verse and slated him because canibus said he wanted to borrow the tattoo of a mic from ll's arm. ll made him change his verse and then promised in turn to change his own verse... which he didnt "a bitch move something a homo rapper would do" so that song is backstabbing and invalid.

2. its obvius to any rap fan that Canibus's track was better than ll's its actually regarded as one of the top diss songs of all time. LL's track was ****. he just acted hype and made it look like he had already won without saying much.

3. LL is on a big label and got far better distribution so no radio station was playing 2nd round knockout. therefore LL won the beef. wasnt anything to with lyrically beating him but he did get his stuff on the radios so all u teeny boppers would just hear LL's verse and asume he won. whereas he said absolutly nothing in his verse!

~Canibus won lyrically but lost by not getting his stuff heard...... Eminem crushed him aswell if memory serves.

1. Well done you watched that video of him having a session with mos def, big pun, dmx and mic geronimo. Backstabbing or not Does'nt change the fact the verse was good.

2. Its obvious to any real HIPHOP fan that ll cool j is a hip-hop legend who spearheaded one of the most influential hip-hop labels of all time and has had a consistently sucessful career over two decades. Its also obvious canibus is a no-mark with a spark of potential that was never fulfilled yet people on the internet jock him cos he's constantly stuck on monotous battle tracks with multis and all that bollix. In my opinon LL cool J won that battle easily. That's my opinon. You are entitled to your's.

3. Yeah canibus was signed to that really obscure super underground indie label when second round knockout dropped..what was it called again? Oh yeah, Universal records! aka the biggest most powerful record company in the world. He was also being co-signed by wyclef, someone who the previous year had dropped one of the best selling albums of any musical genre- The score. He was also all over the mixtapes and hiphop radio and being touted as the next big thing, kinda like lloyd banks after 50 cent dropped get rich or die trying. So don't even play the no airplay card.
But sure I'm only a teeny bopper so what would i know?

Evzer

double post..

burnedfaceman

<Mod delete>

Orizio

Masta Ace is a proper artist but not really a lyricist.He is one of the best out there at choosing beats, has a real charisma on the mic and puts out great albums but not really up there as a great lyricist.

Strange_Fruit

Evzer wrote:

2. Its obvious to any real HIPHOP fan that ll cool j is a hip-hop legend who spearheaded one of the most influential hip-hop labels of all time and has had a consistently sucessful career over two decades. Its also obvious canibus is a no-mark with a spark of potential that was never fulfilled yet people on the internet jock him cos he's constantly stuck on monotous battle tracks with multis and all that bollix. In my opinon LL cool J won that battle easily. That's my opinon. You are entitled to your's.

Well your opinion is REALLY flawed.True,ll came correct with hip hop,the album radio is a brilliant album,and lyricaly astute.But cmon Evzer,your gonna say that after 1987(im a bit sketchy on the year) LL still came as hard as canibus on the mic.No chance.LL turned into a ladies man after like 4 years,not that its necesarly a bad thing,he made a great carreer out of it,but lost his mc status to it.

Cotser

Rappers like Dizzee Rascal, Plan B, Sway, Skinnyman & (sometimes)Jehst all have a lyrical ability & dexterity that I haven't seen from many new US rappers from the last year or two. I'd still probably rate classics like Nas or Biggie at #1 but British rap is catching up fast. Consider that in 2006 the two best hip-hop albums were debuts by British rappers, namely Plan B & Sway. This is fairly impressive when you remember that only five years ago British rap was a laughed-at genre that to most people meant Return Of the Mack and the Blazing Squad.

BTW check out Aries Spears on youtube: this man flawlessly freestyles over 'Ante up' as LL, Snoop, DMX & Jay-Z & gets the accents spot on, it's ****ing deadly!

Orizio

Cotser I would suggest starting a new thread on British Rap, if you wish.;)

I don't want this thread veering off topic, so lets stick to the best lyrcists.I like Dizzee a lot, but he is far from a lyrical giant.Same can be said for Sway and the chronically over rated Plan B.

2040

you know, when i saw the phrase "lyrical dexterity" there i thought of RA the rugged man. I wouldnt give him a best lyricist title by any means but has anyone heard that verse on the jmt album? Really impressive. His album was good too, as was his recent appearance on the nature sounds compilation. I'm looking forward to his next ish.

Bubs101

Run DMC. lyrics are supremely good

BangBeater

it's a freee world, so i'm out'n parole... gotta be Common no doubt!

Linoge

Does nobody but Kanibus in here rate Method Man??

Undergod

Blackalicious, who also have my favourite name.

Ay Cee

Blackalicious' MC is Gift of Gab.

Undergod

True. I'm not fond of gangsta, so it's hard to get exposed to good hip-hop that I can get into, Blackalicious and Haiku d'Etat are two groups that I've discovered recently.

Steyr

Nowadays everybody wanna talk like they got something to say
But nothin comes out when they move they lips
Just a buncha gibberish
And mutha****as act like they forgot about Dre


Says it all really..