Vince Russo, where do you side?

Vince135792003

There's an ongoing debate I guess on the main sites as to how much Russo is to blame for the goings on in TNA. There's basically 2 sides, the observer/figure four camp and the then the torch:

Bryan Alvarez www.f4wonline.com :

When Vince Russo came in I said I’d give him a chance, but figured there was very little possibility that he was any different from the Vince Russo that helped kill WCW. Sure enough, Vince Russo hadn’t learned a goddamn thing since 1997, so basically we got 1997 in 2006, and what a disaster that turned out to be. We got outdated crash TV written by a guy who claims to be a great storyteller, who claims it’s all about the stories and all about the logic, and meanwhile his ****ty storylines are such that none of them make any logical sense whatsoever and, unlike pretty much every great story dating back 3,000 years, instead of having a beginning, a middle and an end, we get an end without a beginning, or a beginning without an end, or a popular favorite, the middle without the beginning or the end, or a conclusion that in no way has anything to do with anything else previously in the story.

Wade Keller www.pwtorch.com :

Russo is a handy scapegoat for everything that's wrong with TNA. That myspace page wasn't created with nuanced knowledge of the breakdown of who's responsible for what at booking meetings. It was a kneejerk, conventional wisdom finger-pointing at one person who walked into an established hierarchy last fall, has by all accounts been frustrated, and probably would have walked out if he didn't need the money. And, if anyone is wondering, I haven't spoken to Russo once since the Ultimate Insider's DVD and have no dog in the fight to keep his job or defend him. I do have a dog in the fight to try to say what's right, not what's popular or conventional, and firing Russo wouldn't overhaul the product. It's a completely screwed up product and firing Russo wouldn't fix most of what people are upset at.

So where do you side?

I'd go with the first opinion largely. TNA was certainly not perfect when Russo came in but its gotten drastically worse when he came in. I don't think its a coincidence that illogical stories, multiple gimmick matches and just plain stupid stuff (reverse battle royals) became ever more prevalent when Russo came in.

I don't think its 100% Russo's fault. Its a 3 man booking crew after all but I think he's a big part of the problems.

HorseRadish

Think those "Fire Russo" chants at Destination X said it all. Bring in Heyman.

Double C

In the words of Abe Simpson (its always good to start with a quote) little from column a, a little from column b. Well more than just a little from column a.
When we look back to autumn when Russo took over, he took over a product that was on the rise. They had just hired Angle, and although I thought the Joe feud was started too soon, it had great momentum at the start. TNA had just gone prime time, which was huge for them. They had a hot feud with Christian and Rhyno. It seemed more people were talking about TNA than the dull WWE at the time. OK, the Angle Joe feud flopped imo, resulting in the terrible iron man match, but still, after the disaster that was December to Dismember, TNA were flying in comparison to the opposition.
Then the VKM thing started. At first, it made sense, pointing out what WWE were doing wrong and laughing at it. But then Russo got carried away and started doing exactly same thing, stupid skits, fat oily guys etc.
Then the gimmick matches started. What's the difference between a Little Italy street fight and a Ghetto Brawl or whatever it was? The reverse battle royal as you said was retarded. Last Rites? Double bull rope? You get the idea. The gimmicks have completely burst the bubble LAX were riding on.
Bear in mind, all this was happening at the same time as WWE's classy build up to WrestleMania. Simple stories that make sense. No gimmicks required.
I think Russo is to blame for the bad bad skits (Roode and Young, Sabin on a zimmerframe, Backlund etc), but not everything. The horrible Abyss Sting feud wasn't Russo, it was one of the other guys. Come on, Abyss' big secret was he shot his father in the back? WTF?!?!? It was kind of ironic that the "Fire Russo" chants happened when what was going on in the ring wasn't down to him. So if Russo is working with retards, I think it should be changed to "Fire the whole writing staff, they all suck". That's kinda catchy.
To his defence, and this won't last long, I swear, Russo has provided us with some of the best stories (WWF Attitude, don't forget) so he is capable of decent TV. Hopefully he reads into the criticism he's getting and changes his ways. It really wouldn't take much to change the company around. If he copied WWE's badness, can't he copy their commonsensical writing?
Give him 6 months. If TNA still sucks by then, get him the **** out!

Double C

On a side note, I just read that the 4th and 5th members of Angles team for Lockdown will be

Sting and................Jeff Jarrett :eek: Didn't JJ and Sting hate each other last year? This could work really well if booked right, so don't hold your breath.

Also, Chavo's contract is up soon, and TNA are interested.

Fozzy

I'd be more of the opinion held by the Observer/Figure Four. Russo's love of gimmick matches is already well-known, as he's not an actual wrestling fan. So it's hardly a coincidence that we're getting all these gimmick matches now. Back in the day when he was partly responsible for the Attitude era, he had McMahon to oversee his ideas. We don't know the inner workings of their relationship, but you can bet that if/when Russo ever proposed a ppv with 7 out of 9 matches having a gimmick, McMahon would have shot it down. I'm guessing Jarrett would have the final say over Russo, and part of the problem could be that Jarrett doesn't have the mind of McMahon. Part of it could just be that he's mates with Russo and wants to let him do his thing

Another point to make is that Meltzer/Alvarez have a reputation for quality reporting. I don't think Keller can really say the same thing

You can be guaranteed one thing, if TNA manages to turn itself around and really start getting people praising the product, Russo will go public in some way

I don't see where Chavo would fit into TNA. I'm not so sure he'd fit in with the X-Division style, although the X-Division guys don't seem to get much time in the ring anymore, so I dunno

Mr.Nice Guy

Russo is an absolute donkey. The advantage TNA had over WWE was that they would give really solid wrestling, especially on PPV. However since Russo has been at the helm wrestling has fallen by the wayside and even the PPVs have to put up with his gimmicky sh*t. For example the Hemme/VKM monstrosity.

Double C wrote:

I think Russo is to blame for the bad bad skits (Roode and Young, Sabin on a zimmerframe, Backlund etc), but not everything. The horrible Abyss Sting feud wasn't Russo, it was one of the other guys. Come on, Abyss' big secret was he shot his father in the back? WTF?!?!? It was kind of ironic that the "Fire Russo" chants happened when what was going on in the ring wasn't down to him. So if Russo is working with retards, I think it should be changed to "Fire the whole writing staff, they all suck". That's kinda catchy.

You don't know that though. Russo is the head of creative and final decisions on storylines rest with him. Jarrett is meant to be playing the Vince McMahon role of "overseeing him".

I am of the view that Russo was heavily involved in that storyline seeing as it's so similar to his WCW stuff.

Double C wrote:

Give him 6 months. If TNA still sucks by then, get him the **** out!

The trouble is in 6 months he's turned TNA from a company with so much promise to one that has produced storylines and matches that even their own fans have started to reject.

In another 6 months TNA could be in dire straits.

Double C

I think it was in the Observer that I saw it but Dutch Mantell is the one in charge of the Abyss Sting angle. It's just the kind of stuff that Russo would give the ok to.
By the way, I don't want to come across as the one defending Russo, I just think he should be given the chance to rectify the mess he has made. I like the look of the Lethal Lockdown main event so far, and tbh, I think it's gonna be make or break with how he handles

Jarrett's return

Vince135792003

Meltzer was on the observer last night and while not going easy on Russo he did say that Jarrett was the "driving force" on the creative team with Russo having less control than people think. So maybe Wade Keller does have a point to a degree.

Again though you can't deny that the BS levels rose pretty quickly when Russo came in.

Maybe the issue is that Jeff Jarret is not Vince McMahon. He can't filter Russo's good ideas from his bad ones like Vince could most of the time.

Or to put it another way, without Vince McMahon, Russo is a total mess. Thats what history seems to suggest.

Whatever way you want to look at it or whoever you want to blame, TNA just isn't in a good way right now.

Jonny Arson

TNA are to blame.

We all know Russo is a Grade-A clown and of course he is partly to blame but at the end of the day TNA/Jeff Jarrett hired him and with their potentially up and coming product now going slowly down the toilet they have only themselves to blame here. They could try to rectify the situation by firing Russo but they haven't. No sympathies from me.

Mhmm...weetabix

Just finished up watching last weeks Impact (the post destination x), it was a solid 45(ish) minutes of tv. Hopefully TNA and Russo got the message after the utter mess Destination X was, because it was back to the way it was around 6 months ago, solid wrestling and logical storylines (bar seritonin and the Young/Roode stories, they're pure ****e stories and will hopefully be dropped soon). Every match was solid imo, especially the Dudley's (who said they were washed up?) v LAX/Shelley annd a good solid X-Division 3 way with out the overdone spots, finally Frankie Kazarian was given a chance to remind us of how good he can be. Anyway, long let this continue because with shows like that the last 6 months will be a distant memory soon!

Vince135792003

Mhmm...weetabix wrote:

. Anyway, long let this continue because with shows like that the last 6 months will be a distant memory soon!

I'll never forget the reverse battle roayal!

Mhmm...weetabix

Vince135792003 wrote:

I'll never forget the reverse battle roayal!

I missed it, by the sounds of things thank christ I did...they were throwing eachother into the ring I take it?? There have being some **** matches alright, Johnny Rodz in the ghetto brawl (the whole match was bad) and elevation x are the 2 low points for me, and thats just 1 ppv. Horrible just horrible

Charlie

Regardless of what you think of Russo's booking, I will always admire him for calling out Hogan on his backsatge politics. Here is a link to the infamous Bash at the Beach 2000; Russo dissin Hogan The sound is a little sketchy.

This is part two of a clip someone uploaded. Part one shows Jarret laying down for Hogan.

"Hogan you big bald son of a bitch, you can kiss my ass

Fozzy

As much as I don't like Hogan and his politicking, I'm not sure Russo did the right thing. Fans don't want to know that there's someone booking the show when they're watching it. When you're watching it, you're willing to believe that it's real. Russo had already made himself an on-air character before that though, so I suppose he was just being consistent, but the whole angle with him was just a ridiculous idea. I don't mind kayfabe being broken, but in no way should it be broken on the actual show, it ruins the business

Vince135792003

Wade Keller editor of the torch flipped his lid!

Heres an extract of the rant which details a defense of Russo, an attack I guess on TNA and its fans and a few subtle jabs at other newsletters. I think he makes some good points but he comes across a little arrogant. Here it is:

If the TNA fans want to be taken seriously when they express approval or disapproval of the product, they have to get their facts straight, be consistent from minute to minute, and not be so easy to forgive when they're thrown a meaningless stunt bump.

In her interview with the UK Sun this weekend, Dixie Carter, in her nice way, mocked the fans for chanting "Holy sh--!" and "T-N-A" just two minutes after chanting "Fye-errrr Rooo-sooo!" at the last PPV.

TNA fans have been misled, either through faulty assumptions or faulty reporting elsewhere, that the TNA product they are watching has much of anything to do with Vince Russo. Chanting "Fire Russo" at a TNA event is the equivalent of chanting "Fire Gewirtz" or "Fire Lagana" at Raw. This shouldn't be breaking news, but only PWTorch Newsletter readers have been told this in the past several months.

The anti-Russo people out for his spot on the booking committee have been doing a good job spreading anti-Russo propaganda for months, hoping the heat clears the way for their insertion or return to the booking committee. Russo, if he had control, might make the product even worse. Maybe it's taking a ton of effort by those with power and influence to keep him from making things worse. Or maybe he'd make it better. But what you see now is not a Russso product.

Just as in WWE where it's Vince McMahon's show, in TNA it's Jeff Jarrett's show. He's the primary booker with 80 percent influence over the final product, with another 15 percent going to Dutch Mantel, and 5 percent from Russo.

Since Russo's arrival, Jarrett has set the course for the direction for major storylines. He books the PPV line-ups, he's behind the gimmick-crazy format (which long-preceded Russo's arrival late last year), he's behind the convoluted finishes (which long-preceded Russo)... it's his product. At booking meetings, he's presented Russo with what he wants and it's Russo's job to do the grunt work of formatting it into a script. Russo can't say this outloud because he'd be implicating his boss, so he sits back and takes it. Good for Dixie to stand up for him in the UK Sun interview.

But Dixie isn't going to take the vocal "smart fans" (an old-style term that is used derisively within wrestling to mock fans who think they know more than they do) seriously if they can't even get their facts straight.

Secondly, quit chanting "This is awesome!" at a big spot that makes no sense, has no impact, is something we've seen all too often before, and involves a near-death experience for a wrestler for zero purpose in the match - especially when it's thrown on the card by Jarrett to try to distract from the fact that he's not doing anything on his own worthy of pops or praise.

TNA fans, if you want a better product, stop popping for meaningless stunt bumps and get your facts straight about who's to blame for what you personally don't like.

The rest is here: http://www.pwtorch.com/artman/publish/article_20018.shtml

Fozzy

I read that interview Dixie did with The Sun. There's two things that I wonder about though. Jarrett is mates with Russo, is he not? Russo gave Jarrett a big push in WCW, so I've always been under the impression that if Russo suggested something, then Jarrett would definitely be listening. Maybe I'm just assuming wrong though. But I can't see Russo having as little as 5% influence. Why hire him then?

The other thing is that history has shown that Russo knows nothing about wrestling. So I can't see him as anything but a negative influence

If Russo wasn't to blame for that Last Rites match (Abyss vs Sting, I think that's what it was called, they put too much stuff in your head), then TNA should just interpret those "fire Russo" chants as the fans not approving of the match, and not just ignore them because they perceive them to have something against Russo

I was surprised at Dixie's comment about Russo being the person who has been trying to slow down Impact. If he's slowed it down, I can only imagine what sort of hyper-speed highlight reel they'd be broadcasting without him

ShawnRaven

Russo has made so many ****ups and reasons to forget him that they overshadow some of the good stuff he did for the company (WWE), and some of it's big players at the minute. (And you can include TNA at that)

Edge, Christian, Matt Hardy and Jeff Hardy... what do they have in common? All either pushed or championed by one man during the course of 1999... his name?

Vince Russo

The problem was Russo drew some success, but whenever he took one step forward, he'd take ten steps back by ****ing it up. He was also on for setting up Jarrett for a big push, only Jarrett ****ed it up by asking for a silly amount of money later to drop the IC belt blackballing him with WWE for life after that.

He's a smart son of a bitch when he wants to be too. He got Vince to buy him out of his WCW contract in 2002 to work for WWE only for him to quit a week later and join TNA!

He grossly overrates himself though. The kind of person you'd buy for what he's worth and sell for what he thinks he's worth.

VR!

Double C

That Wade Keller guy is an idiot. He's basically saying there don't get on Russo's back, he's a great upstanding guy who is not to blame for TNA being in the sh*ts right now, instead blame Jarrett for TNA being in the sh*ts. BTW did he do the maths himself or is he just guessing Russo only has 5% say? Who cares what individual is getting the blame, the problem is the creative as a whole are booking constantly poor, nonsensical bullsh*t in a company that should be thriving right now. Someone has to be blamed for what's going on and, after WCW, Russo is the easy scapegoat. Surely if this Keller guy is a respected journalist with half a brain he should be able to interpret the "Fire Russo" chants as "Jesus Christ, what is going on in the ring, that makes no sense at all, this is bulls*t, changes have to be made in the booking staff" rather than going all defensive on Russo's behalf. It just so happens the first chant is catchier.