British schools allowed to forbid wearing of face veils

r3nu4l

See here

As a result of the ruling new guidelines allow schools to ban the wearing of face-veils on grounds of 'security' or engagement of 'learning'.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this I do have a question (I only ever seem to post here with questions!!).

My understanding is that the face-veil is not compulsory (is this correct?). If that is the case, then a girl who is not allowed to wear a face-veil should still be allowed wear a headscarf, right? Will she still be adhering to the strict interpretations of Islam by wearing a regular headscarf rather than the veil?

As for the rights and wrongs, I personally feel that in school, girls should not wear a face-veil. Anywhere else is fine, but I believe that school is different. I think it is crucial that teachers are able to guage whether a child fully understands a lesson and this is difficult if a childs face is covered as it is hard to pick up those subtle nuances and quite often asking a child if they understand results in an affirmative answer when in reality the child is clueless. I accept that others ehre may feel completely different about this than I do

I'm just wondering how Irish muslims feel about this one, is it an issue in Ireland in the same was as it is in Britain?

InFront

r3nu4l wrote:

My understanding is that the face-veil is not compulsory (is this correct?).

It depends on the girl's deen, or way/ belief. jurists differ on the face veil - or niqaab as it is known. A translation from the Qur'an reads:

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed. (An-Noor 31)

The question is, what must ordinarily appear thereof, or what is "which is apparent"? Well, that's a huge question and we could talk about it all day long and still end up disagreeing. So I think the short answer is that for some, niqaab is necessary, for others they feel it is not necessary.

If that is the case, then a girl who is not allowed to wear a face-veil should still be allowed wear a headscarf, right? Will she still be adhering to the strict interpretations of Islam by wearing a regular headscarf rather than the veil?

If she is wearing niqaab in the first place, she probably feels it is obligatory. There is one very good thing in this ruling, and that is the option aspect: it is up to head teachers whether or not they wish to apply this rule. I understand it would be a lot of hassle to change schools, but at least that option is there for those sisters who observe niqaab.

In ireland, this issue ahs arisen in other areas, ie niqaab women practicing medicine, which was in the media recently in relation to RCSI medics in Beaumont. I think you need to establish how much the unveiling of the face is actually needed before you go demanding it. Eventually they decided that they should be allowed cover up.

As for the rights and wrongs, I personally feel that in school, girls should not wear a face-veil. Anywhere else is fine, but I believe that school is different. I think it is crucial that teachers are able to guage whether a child fully understands a lesson and this is difficult if a childs face is covered as it is hard to pick up those subtle nuances and quite often asking a child if they understand results in an affirmative answer when in reality the child is clueless. I accept that others ehre may feel completely different about this than I do

From what I understand, and I'm no expert, I don't think the niqaab is compulsory . Some scholars say that in fact that is incorrect, and it is an obligation (fard). Some say it is not. Allahu alam (God knows best) I think there is legitimate difference of opinion that should be respected.

I can definitely see why people would be frustrated at not being able to understand a girl's understanding of the coursework, her attitude to the material, or her difficulties or otherwise.
Nevertheless, I don't agree with some of the things that the MPAC/ Muslim education Centre people were saying in that report. Specifically the guy who said that the sooner we get rid of the niqaab, the better. That seems a little hypocritical, as i am sure he would never say the same about the headscarf. There are Muslims who hold the niqaab just as dearly, and if he works for the Muslim education Centre, he clearly knows this. Luckily, the British have not gone down the same road as the French on this one, and I'm glad that the option remains in general and that those who wear the niqaab haven't been banned from doing so completely.

In general, modern British people by and large seem genuinely accepting of religious differences, such as hijab. Especially in the major urban centres, anyway. Despite a relatively new 'exposure' to Islam, I think there is a similar acceptance here in Ireland; even if people do not always understand the reasons for things like hijab, in my experience they tend to recognise it and say 'ok, that's your belief' and let it be. So I for one can't see a 'ban' happening either here or in the UK.

the_new_mr

Just on a point of interest. Ali Guma' (the Mufti of Egypt) recently said that women shouldn't wear niqab (the face veil) in public situations. Some people got a little upset about this since some people believe it is obligatory.

As far as I know, it is a minority opinion that the face veil is obligatory but it is a difference of opinion that has to be respected none the less. I think that women should be allowed to wear it if they want unless their particular situation requires them not to.

I can see the argument about the education and security issues when it comes to schools and I think I support it.

I just hope that this isn't the first step to trying to remove women's rights to wear hijab altogether like they did in France.

MooseJam

InFront wrote:

And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment.

Am I reading that quote right or does the Qur'an tell woman not to jump up and down because we will see their boobies bouncing lmao, that's classic, does the Qur'an have many gems like this one, I guess I didn't know what I was missing, I'll have to pick up a copy

InFront

It wouldn't be the first thing that comes to mind... I think it mostly relates to covering the legs and lower legs. Women used to wear ankle bracelets (apparently common enough for women during the time of the Prophet (saw)) which would then make a noise and attract attention, and also is about revealing their ankles and lower legs at the same time.
So it is abundantly clear that sisters should cover their legs and ankles, I think that is the main point really, wa Allahu Alam (and God knows best)

the_new_mr

One month ban for MooseJam. Trolling.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Nevertheless, I don't agree with some of the things that the MPAC/ Muslim education Centre people were saying in that report. Specifically the guy who said that the sooner we get rid of the niqaab, the better. That seems a little hypocritical, as i am sure he would never say the same about the headscarf. There are Muslims who hold the niqaab just as dearly, and if he works for the Muslim education Centre, he clearly knows this.

I think he meant moreso that he wants people to stop holding it so dearly rather than plain get rid of it when he said

"When you conceal the face, that actually not only dehumanises the person involved, but also creates a chasm, a gap, a bridge of non-understanding between communities and I think the sooner we can get rid of this veil, this face veiling, this face masking in Muslim societies across Britain, so much the better."

So while you may disagree with his sentiments I don't think it's hypocritical, there's a huge difference between the niqaab & a headscarf.

It would be better for the Muslim community's relations with non Muslims - face covering creeps a lot of people out. Headscarves don't. Whether it's simply better is another conversation.

InFront

Well he did say "the sooner we get rid of this veil the better". What if a muslim sister follows a school of thought that says that the niqab is fardh (obligatory)? There are Muslims who adhere to this position, it's not our place to tell them they are wrong, as there is (I believe) legitimate difference of opinion on it. Our opinion doesn't invalidate another Muslim's deen (i.e. her way of belief).

The reason I think it's hypocritical for a Muslim to say that niqaab should be gotten rid of, is that he ought understand the lengths that Muslims already have to go to in defending the headscarf as a 'barrier to integration' against people who want to see it banned.

To see a fellow Muslim condemning this form of hijab is not going to help anyone. If a sister believes that the niqab is fardh/wajib then she's got to cover in this manner, or she may be sinning. She's not hurting anyone, she's doing it for Allah, and niqaab is permissible anyway (even if people disagree over its necessity).
I'm not convinced we should be interfering in such a negative fashion.

the_new_mr

Personally, I'm convinced with the opinion that wearing the niqaab (face veil) is not obligatory since a woman who performs hajj (major pilgrimage) is not supposed to wear it and any woman who does needs to slaughter an animal (doesn't have to be done by herself of course) and (I think) give the meat to the poor to make up for wearing it during the pilgrimage.

Still, although I see his point a little about the creating of a barrier, I think it's a bad idea for the MPAC guy to say what he did. He should respect the opinion of the other scholars and it probably doesn't help to alienate women who wear the face veil in that way. God knows best.