VENT..History Repeats...Zimbabwe

pipraider

History Repeats

History always seems to repeat itself. As Zimbabwe (nee Rhodesia) is threatened to fall by riots of disgruntled citizens, who have had a belly full of huge, oppressive government, so have past monarchies and governments fallen for the same reasons. When governments grow so large and oppressive, eventually the citizens have enough, and they take to the streets. When the Brits burdened the colonists with just one too many taxes, they had it and as a result we are here, and not subject to a King or Queen of England. We stood it for many years, and then it was over for merry England on this side of the pond. When governments grow, they always take on methods of keeping the populace under control, be it bureaucracies, armed troops, or myriads of laws, regulations, and punishments. The numerous kings of Babylon, came and went for hundreds of years because they made mistakes, which cost them their ruler ships. The successive world powers, all came and went because of mistakes by their rulers in battle, kingship methods, or brains. Too large a government breeds inefficiencies, just as does a too large corporation, or business. Too large a government, its inefficiencies and power grabbing, breeds civilian revolt. Revolution is a difficult thing to bring about, and in Zimbabwe, it has taken decades. All the white farmers are gone now, and have had their land confiscated. Tens of thousands have had their homes demolished, and been reduced to abject poverty. Cruel police and bureaucrats, in spite of their guns and laws, are about to be overthrown. We'll see, but I don't think it can last much longer before anarchy takes over.

A similar situation is occurring in South Africa, only the white farmers are leaving everything behind, and abandoning their property, just to stay alive. White residents of South Africa are an endangered species, so dangerous is it for them to remain. The brutality of the puffed up black rulers of South Africa, will have their day eventually, when the blacks, just like in Zimbabwe, will have had enough, and revolt. Currently, as it was in Zimbabwe at first, they are relishing their new found power and 'victory' over the banished whites. Eventually a Zimbabwe type of rebellion will occur in South Africa, just as it has in Zimbabwe. It is so easy for stupid or inexperienced conquerors to lose control, and allow governments to grow out of control.

In America, our government has grown so large, unmanageable, inefficient, power mad, conceited, and abusive, that eventually Americans will revolt, and probably trash Washington D.C. Our taxes are so high, and not on just incomes, but everything we use, eat, and buy, that eventually, enough citizens will come to a realization that it is all the above, plus so pointless and useless, that the D.C. Gang will be overthrown by some means or other. We can only hope it is from within, rather than from without, as has so often happened in the past. Why can't the citizens of The United States realize that they have been made into slaves with their currency debased, being over-taxed, thrust into pointless, unconstitutional wars, having their guns taken away, and being throttled under laws such as the Patriot Act. The Founders would turn over in their graves if they could witness today's goings on, legal shams, and over powering government. "Inside the Beltway" and "The Beltway Boys" are phrases and programs which some watch and use, but which make true patriots shudder. Will America be melded Canada and Mexico, as some wish? Will the fading dollar be replaced by a new currency, which will also be merely a piece of paper with ink on it? Will America eventually revolt, take the D.C. Gang by the throat, and declare freedom once again? It's about to happen in Zimbabwe...in my opinion.

purple'n'gold

The brutality of the puffed up black rulers of South Africa, will have their day eventually, when the blacks, just like in Zimbabwe, will have had enough, and revolt. Currently, as it was in Zimbabwe at first, they are relishing their new found power and 'victory' over the banished whites. Eventually a Zimbabwe type of rebellion will occur in South Africa, just as it has in Zimbabwe. It is so easy for stupid or inexperienced conquerors to lose control, and allow governments to grow out of control.


we have a saying in my part of the world, "put a begger on horseback and he'll run it into the ground"

your assessment is correct, i'm afraid.

lostexpectation

purplengold wrote:

The brutality of the puffed up black rulers of South Africa, will have their day eventually, when the blacks, just like in Zimbabwe, will have had enough, and revolt. Currently, as it was in Zimbabwe at first, they are relishing their new found power and 'victory' over the banished whites. Eventually a Zimbabwe type of rebellion will occur in South Africa, just as it has in Zimbabwe. It is so easy for stupid or inexperienced conquerors to lose control, and allow governments to grow out of control.


we have a saying in my part of the world, "put a begger on horseback and he'll run it into the ground"

your assessment is correct, i'm afraid.

you mean the mdc or whoever replaces muagbe will do the same as him

Scigaithris

pipraider wrote:

Will America eventually revolt, take the D.C. Gang by the throat, and declare freedom once again? It's about to happen in Zimbabwe...in my opinion.

History repeats itself? How can you campare the USA with Zimbabwe? Are not the historical origins of the USA and Zimbabwe quite different? Certainly, both were colonies, but the patterns of European migration were quite different in terms of numbers and resources? Were not the Native Americans overwhelmed by the European immigrants in terms of raw numbers by the millions, which never occurred in Zimbabwe? The same could be said for South Africa, which was also mentioned?

pipraider

Scigaithris

How can you campare the USA with Zimbabwe?...

..I just did, I was highlighting the effects of sprawling Governments..layers upon layers of politicos and government employees..more and more laws etc..same is happening before our eyes in Ireland too but at much earlier stage, Irish G'vment increased it's office space sixfold in last three years, what for? Who is paying? (Cosumers of wealth v's Creators of wealth) ..
There is no business like big Gov'ment Eh? Regarding US..a relatively new kid on the block in Empire terms but eventually like all the rest that went before they will self implode.

Shutuplaura

God it amazes me how much people resent paying taxes. Its also laughable that you actually think this will cause a revolution in the states?

"There is no business like big Gov'ment Eh? Regarding US..a relatively new kid on the block in Empire terms but eventually like all the rest that went before they will self implode."

The end of most if not all european empires in africa and asia such as Holland, France, Portugal and the UK didn't case any of these societies to implode.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I don't think they're quite comparable just yet. Like I heard Zimbabwe's in such a state inflation was 1500% - not quite at that stage in the US

No matter what Bush does he'll have a publicity campaign to back up what he's doing. Robert Mugage doesn't seem to bothered.

Scigaithris

pipraider wrote:

How can you campare the USA with Zimbabwe?...

..I just did, I was highlighting the effects of sprawling Governments..layers upon layers of politicos and government employees..more and more laws etc..

Are you referring to the entrenchment of bureaucracy? What Max Weber referred to in his rationalisation of government thesis (see Economy and Society)? Aside from being relatively new (230+ years from 1776 independence), how is the USA any different from the developed countries of Europe? Have any "self implode(d)" as the result of beaucratic growth? Perhaps they have become sluggish and slow to change as the result of too much red tape, but "self implode"?

Further, the demographic origins and culture of the USA population are more similiar to a blend of the EU than the native populations of Zimbabwe, who had been invaded by a small minority of European colonists? Furthermore, the USA and it's G8 counterparts are post-industrial information age members of the core nations that exploit peripheral, lesser developed nations for their natural resources and cheap labour (see World Systems Theory). Therefore, a comparison of the bureaucratic development of the USA with the very different Zimbabwe is problematic, much less to predict similar outcomes based upon very different origin, political, and economic development variables?

brianthebard

History never repeats itself, men always do.

pipraider

I wrote

Regarding US..a relatively new kid on the block in Empire terms but eventually like all the rest that went before they will self implode

To save all the confusion dear friends perhaps I should have been more specific.

The 7 recognized empires are of history

1 Egyptian empire
2 Assyrian empire
3 Babylonian empire
4 Media and Persian empire
5 Grecian or Macedonian empire
6 Western and Eastern Roman empires
7 Anglo-American empire

All the rest..mere short term colonial exploits by any comparison

-d-

Scigaithris

pipraider wrote:

Regarding US..a relatively new kid on the block in Empire terms but eventually like all the rest that went before they will self implode

To save all the confusion dear friends perhaps I should have been more specific.

5 Grecian or Macedonian empire

Let's just pick one from your list, and in particular the second one mentioned after the "or" word in item #5. Beginning with Macedonian King Phillip and vastly extended by his son, Alexander the Great, the empire extended roughly from the eastern Med to India? According to Oxford University's Robin Lane Fox in his scholarly work, Alexander the Great, the fall of the Macedonian empire was not due to being buried by a lengthy and tedious growth of bureaucracy (and "self implode" as a result), but rather for loss of a charismatic leader, and infighting by powerful pretenders to the throne left by Alexander (called the Successors). To the contrary, the breakup of empire occurred relatively quickly following Alexander's death. Not a slow death by red tape.

All the rest..mere short term colonial exploits by any comparison
-d-

Exactly my point! Zimbabwe was a "colonial exploit" to use your term, and still is economically exploited by the developed nations for cheap resources and labour (see World Systems Theory). To compare the USA and Zimbabwe (in the same breath) in terms of bureaucratic development (as well as demographic, economic, social, and political) is problematic?

While I will agree with you that bureaucracies can become burdensome and limit a nation's (or empire's) ability to adapt to their environment, to suggest that all nations or empires will fall (or "self implode") as a direct result of the growth in bureaucracy (and stating that history will repeat itself using this sole determinant), is questionable indeed.

Now, if you are merely predicting that all nations or empires will someday end (as a result of many major factors, one of which may include bureaucratic growth), then there is no debate. Will Durant in his Lessons of History concluded this years ago, as did Spenser in his survival of the fittest thesis (see Social Darwinism).

DadaKopf

I think pipraider is twisting history and current affairs to suit his very narrow view.

When I saw the first post, I was so annoyed about it that I couldn't reply because there was just too much to say and I have too little time.

I have never come across an instance of the collapse of any regime being due solely to 'bureaucracy', though 'government' of whatever variety, sometimes played a role in its expansion or retreat.

Some like Immanuel Wallerstein and Branko Milanovic are fairly sure the American power will collapse, but it's not because of 'bureaucracy'. It's because of a vastly complex set of processes of politics and economics.

This said, and as much as I like anthropological approach of world systems theory, it erases many of the complexities out in trying to provide a unified theory of the so-called impending collapse of capitalism.

Pipraider, you scoot through too many vastly different historical episodes. Every one of those are completely different to the other as to make meangingful comparisons in that way impossible. This is exactly how ideology works.

Zambia

I think using Zimbabwe as an example of what you are trying to convey is just silly. As discussed before in other Threads Mugabe is just a bigoted ruler who uses all means possible to stay in Power. His tin pot regime should have been overthrown years ago , pity there is no Oil in Zimbabwe.