Second thoughts

J.S. Pill

Hi all,

I applied for the Hdip in UCC in December. I applied to teach economics and CSPE, it seemed like a good way to get out of working in call centres at the time but I'm starting to have second thoughts about it now.

I know th course offers are coming up soon and to be honest, I just applied for this in December and more or less forgot about it, I have a good idea about what the course is like and I've talked to a few people who've done it (though for different subjects) but I have little idea of what awaits me when i finish.

From what I've gathered from some of the threads I've looked at, most graduates who do get work teaching find themselves in temporary positions for a number of years. With regard to these positions, 2 questions: Does one get paid for summer holidays and how much notice do schools have to give you before they terminate the contract. Also, does anyone know what kind of demand is out there for economics teachers? I saw a couple of adds over the last few weeks but they were all for economics/busines teachers.

Any advice would eb much appreciated

spurious

I would have thought with Economics you'd be able to cover JC Maths and Business too - would you not?

That opens up more job opportunities. The years of part-time and subbing and contract work are just how it is for the majority of people now. A qualification in CSPE should get you in a few doors though as few schools have qualified people on staff.

Have you taught before? Teaching is a very lonely job if you hate what you are doing. I would advise anyone thinking of H.Dip. to go back to their old school and at least help out in some classes, preferably with weak disaffected learners.

J.S. Pill

spurious wrote:

I would have thought with Economics you'd be able to cover JC Maths and Business too - would you not?

That opens up more job opportunities. The years of part-time and subbing and contract work are just how it is for the majority of people now. A qualification in CSPE should get you in a few doors though as few schools have qualified people on staff.

Have you taught before? Teaching is a very lonely job if you hate what you are doing. I would advise anyone thinking of H.Dip. to go back to their old school and at least help out in some classes, preferably with weak disaffected learners.

No I haven't thought before, I doubt going back to my old school to help out would be very practical as its in Wexford and I live in Cork now.

As regards JC maths and business: when I filled out the application form for the Hdip it stated that I should only select the subjects that were a major component of my college content (or something to that effect), I'm sure both of those subjects would be a doddle to teach but economics and CSPE are all I'm down for at the moment.

spurious

I would imagine all but a very large school would have difficulty making a full-time timetable out of Economics and CSPE. I would advise you to do all you can to get Maths and/or Business in there somewhere.

J.S. Pill

spurious wrote:

I would imagine all but a very large school would have difficulty making a full-time timetable out of Economics and CSPE. I would advise you to do all you can to get Maths and/or Business in there somewhere.

Makes sense I guess - is it actually possible for me to take on these additional subjects though?

gaeilgegrinds

With the Teaching Council making everyone's life hell at the moment I'd say not, get onto them and ask. They told this years P.G.D.E. students only their degree subjecst would be registered, bummer.

TheDriver

Indeed, teaching council is going to stop you teaching subjects not in your degree in 2 years it is proopsed which is going to hit a alot of people. Of course you could upskill through teachers organisations and professional development but tough for newcomers. Also business job in my gaff 8 hours only and we had over 80 applicants. Bottom line, be prepared for temporary stuff

gaeilgegrinds

From the reply I got from the Teaching Council ALL teachers will not be allowed to teach subjects they are not registered as having. And you can only register two subjects, this works in my favour but not most peoples. In our staffroom I was shocked at what people had degrees in and were teaching so prepare for a shake-up, whether old-school or newly qualified. Sucks on the one hand but will make for more professionalism too which can hardly be viewed as a bad thing, you wouldn't go to a brain surgeon for prostate problems now would you? So why should there be people with Commerce degrees teaching English?

TheDriver

I would disagree with you there gaeilgegrinds as I know teachers doing Maths, Physics and applied maths yet they will have to give that up, or accounting, maths, business studies and economics which and business graduate would have no trouble with at lc level. And the reality is no matter how good you are at your subject, experience is what makes a good teacher. Principals are dreading this as there are some subjects that they will have to find another teacher for even though its only small number of hours, I know only one person with applied maths degree teaching it as its always maths or science grads.

spurious

It's yet another Irish example of people making rules while not knowing what is actually going on in the schools.

There will be schools will have to drop subjects if it is implemented strictly and good fully qualified teachers will lose hours. Schools will be forced to take on 'qualified' people rather than alloting a couple of hours to existing good teachers. Ridiculous timetables of a couple of hours will be drawn up - no one will want them and the subject will go.

We're not talking about English teachers taking LC music, or the PE teacher giving Science a bash, but there is no reason why an experienced Metal or Woodwork teacher couldn't take JC Tech Drawing, or an Accountancy teacher Foundation JC Maths.

There are also some subjects for which there is no formal specific qualification yet - SPHE or ESS for example. At the moment ESS is taken by History OR Geography graduates in the main, but if the schools had to wait for a History AND Geography graduate to take each ESS class the subject would die out. The CSPE Dippers are staring to come on stream but it will be a long time before there is one or more for every school in the country.

There will be ways found round any strict implementation of the qualifications issue, in true Irish manner.

gaeilgegrinds

Hey don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with it all. I think you should be able to teach subjects somewhat related to what you already teach but I was unbelieveably shocked at what some of my colleagues told me. I mean one has an appalling level of English, has even said so herself, she has a Commerce degree, that's what I don't agree with! She has Leaving Cert higher level English this year! I mean there's hardly a lack of English teachers! It will cause huge problems, there is no doubting that, got confirmation of my registration there before Easter, €50 a year to teach!

kittex

I think it will cause problems, but it can only be a good thing long term.

Pupils have the right to be taught by teachers who know the subject as well as the science of learning, who have the ability to teach.

Many people who criticise the Teaching Council's move should think about what they would do if it was their child's Leaving Cert. They would want reassurances that they were being taught by a well qualified teacher who knows the subject. Not by someone making up subbing hours for their Dip application and teaching totally out with their realm or knowledge.

The Teaching Council will really benefit teachers too, giving the role more professional recognition and this is a stronger point for teacher to contribute to the new curriculum, a better basis for having a say given all the changes due in the next few years.

Not everyone with a degree can teach, it is a profession and it should be subject to the rigors that status requires.

EDIT: I realise the thread has gone slightly off-topic. To the OP, best of luck whatever you decide, it is a great job if you want to do it and your heart's in it.

spurious

Obviously the ideal would be that subjects are taught by people who have a qualification specifically for teaching that area. This simply cannot work in the real world. Subjects change, the needs of schools change - there has to be flexibility.

Take German for example. It is rarely the only language on offer in a school so at most would have a couple of class groups for JC and possibly one or two for LC in a school (unless a very large school). That is about 9-10 hours a week, but in most schools it will probably be less than 8 hours - who will take that job? What quality of teacher will take a job for less than 8 hours a week?

What the Teaching Council will have to arrange with the DES, when they finally work out that the scheme is unworkable, is a proper series of upskilling inservice. All the old shorthand and typing teachers are now computer teachers - it's been done before.

I am a history graduate, but in my classes I have taught Geography, ESS, Maths, Irish, English, CSPE, computers, SPHE and occasionally languages. This is all within the setting of a History or an ESS class. The cross-curricular nature of many subjects means this is easy to do. I'm a firm believer in a good teacher being one who is skilled in the art of teaching, not just in one particular area. I would hate to see everyone pigeon-holed into little boxes, never straying into the territory of another discipline. Life is not like that.

Leaving Cert. would be a different kettle of fish, but for JC at least they will need to relax the guidelines.

kittex

spurious wrote:

Obviously the ideal would be that subjects are taught by people who have a qualification specifically for teaching that area. This simply cannot work in the real world. Subjects change, the needs of schools change - there has to be flexibility.

What the Teaching Council will have to arrange with the DES, when they finally work out that the scheme is unworkable, is a proper series of upskilling inservice. All the old shorthand and typing teachers are now computer teachers - it's been done before.

I couldn’t agree more about being able to upskill, or maybe cross-skilling would be more appropriate, as it doesn't deem one subject better than the other. I digress. I would hope that the TC is seeing this as a staged process, get things is a row first, then tidy up their recognition process for additional subjects.

It seems crazy for me as an English and RE teacher in the UK, to have to do a whole new degree as the TC won't recognise my RE. As you say spurious, unworkable for many schools. Having dealt with the GTC and GTCS (the Irish TC is modelled on these) I do hope there is goal in mind with offering similar additional subject recognition as these teaching councils do.

spurious wrote:

I'm a firm believer in a good teacher being one who is skilled in the art of teaching, not just in one particular area. I would hate to see everyone pigeon-holed into little boxes, never straying into the territory of another discipline. Life is not like that.

I completely agree. However pre-Teaching Council, people with any degree could really technically, teach anything. My cousin has been taught Chemistry in a rural school for 2 years, by an English graduate sub. Basically, they have been just working through the book. It is a nightmare for her and means costly grinds for her parents, but is technically allowed.
I really do not agree with any graduate being able to walk into subbing. I know it's the system at present but as we both have mentioned the skill, the art of teaching is so important. Surely, the Teaching Council can only help this recognition.

gaeilgegrinds

I really don't agree with languages being taught by just anyone, probably because they're a cause so close to my heart but it leads to atrocious pronunciation mistakes. I agree with what has been said by the way but am still apprehensive for some of my colleagues, can people already in the jobs be put out by this I wonder? According to the Council they can!

Trotter

Keep it on topic folks!!

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