North West motorway on agenda

ardmacha

Breaking News
Package would fund biggest-ever cross-border project
22/03/2007 - 16:04:41

If accepted, the new financial package for the North announced today is to fund biggest-ever cross-border project to date - a major motorway to Donegal and Derry.

Taoiseach Bertie Ahern's Cabinet has pledged £400m (€589.5m) of British Chancellor Gordon Brown's total £1bn (€1.47bn) fund to help devolved Assembly ministers deal with infrastructural challenges in the months ahead.

Minister for Finance Minster Brian Cowen said the dual-carriageway road stretching to Derry and Donegal would remove the single biggest impediment to the future development of the Northwest and the border counties.

"It will be the biggest and most important cross-border project ever on this island," he added.

As Monday's deadline for devolution nears, Mr Cowen said Brown's package offers a real opportunity for economic progress to accompany political stability in the North.

"This unprecedented investment has been made possible through the joint contribution of the Irish and British governments and will benefit everybody on this island.

"The agreement on a major cross-border roads programme and a new North/South research and innovation fund represent the type of imaginative and ambitious policies that we need to pursue to secure peace and build future prosperity."

The Chancellor also supports wide proposals benefiting the North contained in the Irish Government's National Development Plan 2007-2013.

Mr Cowen said he now looked forward to the progression of projects like the Ulster Canal, Narrow Water Bridge as well as tourism and regional development.

"Work is already under way on a number of other projects, such as the re-opening of border roads, City of Derry Airport, the North West Gateway Initiative, electricity interconnection and the single electricity market," he added.

"There is also huge untapped potential for improving public services such as health and education through working together."

Victor

"It will be the biggest and most important cross-border project ever on this island," he added.

A peculiar way of saying it.

K-9

In fairness to FF they have done alot of work on the road in the last 6/7 years. Probably wouldn't take too much to upgrade the new sections that have been opened. Castleblayney is due to open this year, I believe and then it's the Emyvale section. The Northern part and Lifford to L'kenny are the worst parts.

I wonder what part of the route in the Republic they are chatting about. The N2 to Ardee and on to the NW or MI and then upgrade from there. Would be great to have the option of the M1 and the whole of the N2 as motorways/dual carriageways.

MLM

Seanies32 wrote:

In fairness to FF they have done alot of work on the road in the last 6/7 years. Probably wouldn't take too much to upgrade the new sections that have been opened. Castleblayney is due to open this year, I believe and then it's the Emyvale section. The Northern part and Lifford to L'kenny are the worst parts.

I wonder what part of the route in the Republic they are chatting about. The N2 to Ardee and on to the NW or MI and then upgrade from there. Would be great to have the option of the M1 and the whole of the N2 as motorways/dual carriageways.

Great. Three major motorways running through Meath and northwards. Four if you include the planned outer bypass of Dublin. One six lane motorway to the north with spurs to major population centres would have sufficed. What complete and utter waste of my and other taxpayers money!

K-9

So one to the North, presumably Belfast with spurs of it. One to the West, Galway, with spurs of it. One to the South, Cork, with spurs of it. Anything else would be a waste of tax payers money?

1huge1

As naive as this statement seems why should we pay that much
Its our money going to the country that recieves there money from one of the biggest governments in the world who surely has a lot more money than us

K-9

So we should have only 3 6 lane motorways. Thats ok because whats planned for the NW is a 4 lane Dual Carriageway.

The NW especially Donegal, needs this link more than any other. There is no rail service in Donegal and no direct rail service between Derry and Dublin. Other areas of the country get rail and motorway links so why not the NW. Also if you put all the traffic to Monaghan, Cavan, Belfast, Armagh, Derry, Donegal and L'kenny on the MI how would that affect traffic on the M50 and M1. There would be more traffic using the M50/M1 intersection on top of the Port Tunnel traffic. What would that cost taxpayers?

K-9

Well the funding for the North is another thread really.

Derry and L'kenny are linked together in the National Development plan for a reason. Strong economic and geographical ties.

Basically if the road to Derry isn't improved Donegal will suffer. We would be a spur of the main Derry route.

I take your point but why should Donegal suffer. This money is for the peace dividend which all the Border counties should also benefit from.

Victor

Seanies32 wrote:

The NW especially Donegal, needs this link more than any other. There is no rail service in Donegal and no direct rail service between Derry and Dublin. Other areas of the country get rail and motorway links so why not the NW. Also if you put all the traffic to Monaghan, Cavan, Belfast, Armagh, Derry, Donegal and L'kenny on the MI how would that affect traffic on the M50 and M1. There would be more traffic using the M50/M1 intersection on top of the Port Tunnel traffic. What would that cost taxpayers?

You have to admit that Donegal is on the edge of an island, beyond another island, on the edge of a continent.

So much of the demand for investment in Donegal sounds like "waaaaaaa!!!".

1huge1

Ya I didnt really take donegal into the equation my appologies
I was unaware that many donegal people worked in derry but I guess it makes sense

K-9

Victor wrote:

You have to admit that Donegal is on the edge of an island, beyond another island, on the edge of a continent.

So much of the demand for investment in Donegal sounds like "waaaaaaa!!!".

By the same argument Ireland shouldn't have got any EC funds because we're an island on the edge of another island on the edge of a continent! Some things should be taken away from Dublin to because the debate sounds like "waaaaa!!" ! The Children's hospital being one. Bring it to somewhere who actually would love to have it and stop the whinging!

Donegal people pay taxes and are entitled to decent infrastructure as well.

Alot of people work in Derry from Donegal and vice versa. I did myself for 3 years. The border doesn't really exist for employment and business.

murphaph

Seanies32 wrote:

The Children's hospital being one. Bring it to somewhere who actually would love to have it and stop the whinging!

More children live in Dublin than anywhere else, why make more sick children travel than needs be?

Seanies32 wrote:

Donegal people pay taxes and are entitled to decent infrastructure as well.

well you see that's debatable actually. Donegal people deserve the same per capita as anywhere else, but that's the problem for your county-it's population density is too low to warrant decent infrastructure throughout the county. There is something like 10 metres of road for every person in Dublin, so naturally there is plenty of money to maintain it. There is something like 5 miles of road for every person in Donegal, so clearly that road cannot be maintained to the same standard as the road in Dublin.......unless its maintenance cost is subsidised by taxpayers from outside Donegal, which is in fact what happens. We have to draw the line somewhere, do the good people of Achill Island deserve a motorway to Dublin as well?

Seanies32 wrote:

Alot of people work in Derry from Donegal and vice versa. I did myself for 3 years. The border doesn't really exist for employment and business.

But it exists for tax raising purposes. Your income tax you paid in Derry didn't go to Dublin, yet you want Dublin to pay for a road to you through a different jurisdiction. You don't pay rates in the RoI so just how much of a tax contribution did you make to the state for those 3 years? Doesn't make sense really. Derry itself isn't that big anyway and is hardly a buzzing centre of life with a huge market for goods from the RoI. At least Belfast has a decent population (market) for our goods. This isn't a personal attack on you btw, just general observations.

K-9

murphaph wrote:

More children live in Dublin than anywhere else, why make more sick children travel than needs be?

Not personal at all either, just arguing the point

Thats grand but when people from Dublin can't agree on a site and are ringing Liveline looking to have it 20 minutes from their house then action has to be taken. Some children have a 3/4/5/6 hour journey and parents have to find accomodation to the Children's hospital. Locate it in Dublin, definitely, nobodies saying not to, but if a site can't be agreed and nothings been done after 2/3 years take it somewhere that will get the thing actually built.

Somebody think of the children!

Achill Ireland as it is in Mayo will be well served by roads to the West, eg. Westport/Castlebar. I don't think people from Malin Head are looking for motorways so of course a line should be drawn for Arranmore or indeed Tory Island. Money from the EC was awarded to the BMW region for infrastructure as well 5/6 years ago and not Dublin. This is entitled to be spent on the BMW counties only, as well as taxpayers funds.

By the same argument Dublin should look after it's own waste seeing as they produce the most waste. So use Poolbeg for waste, or some site that can actually be agreed on and commission it.

Also should the Governments here have said no to EU Structural funds based on the fact that they had contributed less to the EU and where on the peripherary of Europe.

About taxpayers in different jurisdictions that is a different matter. I worked in Derry for 3 years so of course I wanted my taxes paid there to go towards a dual carriageway to Derry from the border. I didn't give an opinion on the South giving money to cross border projects but I know in the 80's we would have been grateful for money from the North, which in a way, the whole Republic got from the EU, as the UK contributed to the EC. Should the South give back the money we got from the EU, and therefor the UK, as we didn't pay our share of money to them.

I actually did pay tax in the South based on income I earned in the South while I was in the North. So if u haven't paid taxes in this country you are entitled to less of a say in how taxpayers funds are spent.. What about returned emigrants/non nationals/foreign multinationals. How many foreign multinational got subsidies from the Southern Govt. to locate here?

Derry is actually a thriving city, just the same as Galway, Waterford etc and will be more so with the peace dividend. The idea with funding cross border projects is to make a bigger market for ROI goods, so we will get our money back and more, if it anywhere near as successful as EU funds where for us. That is the idea of the money, to help the North economically. Again, going back to the EU funds argument, Europe didn't use this when they where funding Ireland with no guarantee of a return.

ardmacha

Leaving aside Donegal, Derry has twice the population of Waterford, which is getting a high quality road, so this balances up the geographic spread of road investment to some extent.

However there should be some consideration of routes other than just dualling the N2. Perhaps an extension of the M3 would do the trick. Or you could run the road from Dundalk to Monaghan, providing a substantial part of a needed Dundalk Sligo route, with a much improved Monaghan Eniskillen route to complete the picture.

MLM

ardmacha wrote:

Leaving aside Donegal, Derry has twice the population of Waterford, which is getting a high quality road, so this balances up the geographic spread of road investment to some extent.

However there should be some consideration of routes other than just dualling the N2. Perhaps an extension of the M3 would do the trick. Or you could run the road from Dundalk to Monaghan, providing a substantial part of a needed Dundalk Sligo route, with a much improved Monaghan Eniskillen route to complete the picture.

Agreed. Extending the M3 is a better idea than upgrading the N2. However I think we need to question whether there is a need to connect this region of the country to Dublin. Surely it would be a better and more economically feasible plan to connect Derry-Letterkenny to Belfast, giving access to two airports and two seaports, rather than a congested badly planned nightmare.

road_high

ardmacha wrote:

Leaving aside Donegal, Derry has twice the population of Waterford, which is getting a high quality road, so this balances up the geographic spread of road investment to some extent.

.

Yes and rightly so.. It has the fastest growing port in Ireland, unlike Derry/Donegal. The route is a lot shorter from Kilcullen to Waterford (110km give or take), and serve directly Kilkenny and Carlow both with populations pushing 25000 on the same route.It is also one of the very worst 'National' roads in the country, if not Europe with an accident rate twicw the national average in much of it
BTW I'm not against a decent road to Derry, I just don't think it's the same in comparison to distance, benefits to the Irish economy as having a decent motorway standard road from Dublin to Waterford.

K-9

But the point of any new infrastructure is to improve transport links to make it more economically viable and attract investment. Is it ok to build motorways to Waterford, Wexford etc. and ignore the NW? I don't think so. It's the only way the NW and Border counties will contribute more to the Irish economy.

EU funding is for the BMW Region and not the rest of the country so The Border counties and Donegal are entitled to that money being spent on transport links. This is in addition to Taxpayers funds. These roads service large population centres like Dundalk, Navan, Monaghan and Cavan as well.

Actually with the controversy over the M3 a M2 might be a better idea with links of it that would serve Navan, Cavan etc.

johnbk

I’m just new to the forum.

Having read other comments on the relatively new proposal of a new road from Dublin to the North West I thought I would add my opinion to the topic.

I had this correspondence from the Roads Service NI last summer.

Thank you for your attached e-mail of 4 August 2006.

The route to which you refer proposes a parallel motorway from Derry to Ballygawley (A5) to Armagh to Newry (A28). Unfortunately the traffic figures on this route (approximately 13,000 and 9,000 vehicles AADT respectively) do not merit the construction of a motorway, as a viable business case is not achievable, even based on traffic growth over the next 30 years.

Construction of a motorway on this route would not only be expensive, but would also require many years of planning and consultation with the local people who would be affected. The current strategy most recently published in a Public Consultation document on 31 July 2006 www.drdni.gov.uk will provide significant improvements to the A5, which is one of Northern Ireland's 5 Key Transport Corridors.

For example, in our current Strategic Road Improvement Programme we have the A5 Omagh Throughpass (£10m) and the A5/N14 Strabane-Lifford Link (£3m). In Annex B of the Public Consultation document, Roads Service is proposing £130m of improvements on the A5 between Londonderry and Victoria Bridge, including bypasses of New Buildings, Magheramason, Strabane and Sion Mills.

As you will see in the Public Consultation document, it is important to add that Roads Service has significant plans to upgrade the A6 route from Derry to Belfast. For example, £250m is being invested in upgrading 30km of dual carriageway from Derry to Dungiven, and a further £70m of investment for the 14km section of the A6 from Castledawson to Randalstown. When you combine these improvements with the upgrading proposals of the A1 route from Belfast to the Border, south of Newry, then I hope you will appreciate that significant investment is being provided on the road from Derry to Newry also.

I hope this information is helpful.

For your information, the consultation period on the proposed Expanded Strategic Road Improvement Programme began on 31 July 2006 for a 9 week period.

It is clear that this road project is only the idea of politicians at the moment but I think that the idea is supported by every political party on both sides of the border.

The republics National Development Plan on roads, although considerably behind the original proposed dates will be largely completed by 2010, they will even have completed a motorway to Waterford, a region with less people than the North West.

When Gregory Campbell DUP was asked about this project on Questions and Answers (Irish current affairs TV programme) on 26/03/07 he did not knock it but did say that any development should not leave out the east of Northern Ireland.

I see roads as a means to economical development and not the other way round. I think this road will and should happen to at least HQDC.

What I see as most interesting over the next couple of years is the route selection process, whether it is an extension of the M3 (North of Kells), upgrading the N2/A5 or a spur off the M1 at Newry through Armagh or at the Foyle, if it follows the Donegal or Tyrone/Derry side of the river?

I have drawn some of these:
http://northwestmotorway.blogspot.com/

mike65

No need for multi-threading, so merged.

Mike.

ardmacha

As the Republic's government will pay for a lot of this, I can't see the Newry-Derry route being a runner and Newry Armagh is not that easy a route for road building. The M3 option would be more radical. It probably boils down to mostly being the N2. The only issue is whether it is an extension of the Ashbourne HQDC, a link via N33 and Ardee or a Dundalk-Monaghan connection.

The West bank of the Foyle might be reasonable option when the route reaches that far, this would also provide connection to Letterkenny and Inishowen.

Gregory Campbell's comment is a concern if it implies some diversion of funds to the East of NI on the basis that the Irish government is doing the needful West of the Bann.

Bards

johnbk wrote:

The republics National Development Plan on roads, although considerably behind the original proposed dates will be largely completed by 2010, they will even have completed a motorway to Waterford, a region with less people than the North West.

From IDA website which gets it's figure from the CSO. The North West region comprises of three counties - Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim. It has a population of over 236,656 (2006 Census). The principal towns in the Region include Sligo, Carrick-on-Shannon and Letterkenny.

The South East Region has a popultation of 450,000 twice that of the North West

mike65

Hmmm, it seems the north-west is now including Derry/Londonderry in its arithmetic. Of course Waterford is not a region.

Mike.

ardmacha

Did Bertie not state that there was going to be a dual carriageway all the way to Rosslare, with two HQDC routes, and two railway lines the South East is well connected.

Donegal and Tyrone people have no railways.

mike65

The DC to Rosslare is aparently a mystical vision not in any actual plan. At least thats the impression I got listening to South-East Radio on Tuesday.

Mike.

K-9

Bards wrote:

From IDA website which gets it's figure from the CSO. The North West region comprises of three counties - Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim. It has a population of over 236,656 (2006 Census). The principal towns in the Region include Sligo, Carrick-on-Shannon and Letterkenny.

The South East Region has a popultation of 450,000 twice that of the North West

As Mike65 says, the NW is now considered Derry and I suppose Tyrone as well which would bring the figures roughly equal. Derry/Letterkenny as an economic hub area is identified in the National Development plan.

Also Donegal,Sligo,Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan and Louth are part of the BMW region and so qualify for EU funds which the South East does not.

johnbk

Limavady 32,522
Derry 105,000
Strabane 38,248
Omagh 47,952
Fermanagh 57,527
Total NI 281,249
Donegal 146,956
Total 428,205

road_high

Seanies32 wrote:

As Mike65 says, the NW is now considered Derry and I suppose Tyrone as well which would bring the figures roughly equal. Derry/Letterkenny as an economic hub area is identified in the National Development plan.

Also Donegal,Sligo,Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan and Louth are part of the BMW region and so qualify for EU funds which the South East does not.

This is a ridiculous scenario imo, considering income figures for the s east are lowest in the country; yet we are no longer Objective 1.We badly need that motorway to boast the local economy and strengthen our links with Dublin and surrounds.

mike65

Without wanting to drag this completly off topic, the SE region is per capita the poorest in the State. Amazing but true. The region is badly treated by Dublin, mainly I think due to lack of regional solidarity. Others get together and scream blue murder. We don't.

Mike.

ardmacha

This thread is not about the South East and nobody is suggesting that they build the NW motorway instead of the M9, rather that the circumstances that justify the M9 also justify a similar route to the NW.

The South East is only the poorest region because Border includes Louth, which is really in the East and is quite prosperous. CSO stats show that Donegal has the lowest disposable income in the 26 counties, lower than any SE county. Tyrone wouldn't be overly prosperous and Monaghan is not as prosperous as Waterford and these places do not have rail access.

K-9

mike65 wrote:

Without wanting to drag this completly off topic, the SE region is per capita the poorest in the State. Amazing but true. The region is badly treated by Dublin, mainly I think due to lack of regional solidarity. Others get together and scream blue murder. We don't.

Mike.

What actually are the figures per region, just out of interest?

It's not a case of screaming blue murder at all. Ireland was in serious danger of losing EU funding and the BMW region was artificially created to ensure the continuation of the funds. SE needs to get together and make itself heard. No point moaning about the action of the BMW region because of inaction on SE's part. We need to act together on issues like this, and that includes the SE.

IMO, areas like the SE, NW etc. need good infrastructure just as much, if not more, than developed areas. There's no point people from cities complaining about traffic, overdevelopment, commuter belts, urban sprawl etc. and then moaning about efforts on the part of Govt. to spread development country wide.

ArdMacha wrote:

The South East is only the poorest region because Border includes Louth, which is really in the East and is quite prosperous. CSO stats show that Donegal has the lowest disposable income in the 26 counties, lower than any SE county. Tyrone wouldn't be overly prosperous and Monaghan is not as prosperous as Waterford and these places do not have rail access.

Parts of Louth would now be considered parts of Greater Dublin. e.g. Drogheda, Ardee.

Lennoxschips

this government is always harping on about decentralisation, but their entire goal seems to be to build as many roads to dublin as possible