North West motorway on agenda

ardmacha

Practically every motorist in Fermanagh, Tyrone and Derry is running with petrol in their tank from which Brian Cowan has taken over 50%. Time to get some of money back into circulation in these parts.

dowlingm

ardmacha - don't overdo it. Look how many millions and millions HMG got from Irish people for decades going north for cheap stuff (including petrol) not to mention to get stuff in the chains that didn't exist in the South, plus the ones who went to Fishguard and Holyhead to get cheap cigarettes.

Needless to say HMG made no direct grants to the Republic for any roads of ours beyond EU funds (which Maggie got a rebate from).

Just because there's Dixons in the south for a couple of years and Gorn Broon's fuel price escalator has reversed the pricing of petrol in the last decade doesn't mean the Republic is rolling in dosh on your account.

Victor

OK, chill out folks.

westtip

MLM wrote: »

Great. Three major motorways running through Meath and northwards. Four if you include the planned outer bypass of Dublin. One six lane motorway to the north with spurs to major population centres would have sufficed. What complete and utter waste of my and other taxpayers money!

Couldn't agree more - what we need is an east/west decent road (2+1) woudl be fine from Dundalk/Newry to Sligo via Enniskillen. Yet another radial route from Dublin is simply not needed. I suppose it will shore up the FF vote though

westtip

E92 wrote: »

Isn't it great that the roads in the Republic are so great that we can now afford to spend £400 million on a jurisdiction that contributes nothing to the taxes of this state:rolleyes:?

Have you never heard of the "all ireland economy" - it is in everybodies interest to ensure the north is a vibrant economy and has a good infrastructure. I have argued long on these boards for a decent road (and it doesn't have to be Motorway) from Sligo to Newry/Dundalk - why because tourism in Sligo will benefit hugely if visitors from the Belfast region can get to us quickly - and guess what they spend money on things like beer, and goods and hotel rooms and meals - which if it hadn't escaped your notice have VAT and or excise charged on them. Equally Dublin is not the centre of the universe and I for one woudl like to have the choice to get to Belfast on better roads and more quickly for what that City offers.

In any event we owe it to the north to help them now, having abandonned the nationalist community up there 80 years ago, but lets not go there eh?

casey jones

A small country like ours, with a massive infrastructure deficit funding the building of roads in a G8 country is utter nonsense. The "all Ireland economy" is PC terminology. The reality is different currency, different exchequer, different economy.

L1011

All-island economy or not, a decent quality road to Donegal *is* required for its economy, and it is part of the Republic.

D.L.R.

casey jones wrote: »

A small country like ours, with a massive infrastructure deficit funding the building of roads in a G8 country is utter nonsense.

G8 country me ar$e. That's like calling Puerto Rico a world superpower. This is NI we're talking about, not southern England. A decent road to Donegal is part of the infrastructural deficit you mention, and it has to go through NI. So its a bonus for the people of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Derry. So what? A lot of them are Irish anyway. The road to Larne helps balance it out politically while also benefitting the south with better connection to a major seaport. Meanwhile the NI exec get two major links for basically half price.

Everybody's happy. Except you.

casey jones

D.L.R. wrote: »

G8 country me ar$e. That's like calling Puerto Rico a world superpower. This is NI we're talking about, not southern England. A decent road to Donegal is part of the infrastructural deficit you mention, and it has to go through NI. So its a bonus for the people of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Derry. So what? A lot of them are Irish anyway. The road to Larne helps balance it out politically while also benefitting the south with better connection to a major seaport. Meanwhile the NI exec get two major links for basically half price.

Everybody's happy. Except you.

I think you'll find the UK is a G8 country and it does control NI politically and financially. They should fund the building of this road which connects the second city in NI i.e. Derry and the largest city on the island i.e. Dublin. I don't believe everybody is happy with prioritising expenditure on infrastructure in another jurisdiction when so much internal infrastucture is required. Why not fund Heathrow airport on the same basis ?

D.L.R.

casey jones wrote: »

I think you'll find the UK is a G8 country and it does control NI politically and financially. They should fund the building of this road which connects the second city in NI i.e. Derry and the largest city on the island i.e. Dublin. I don't believe everybody is happy with prioritising expenditure on infrastructure in another jurisdiction when so much internal infrastucture is required. Why not fund Heathrow airport on the same basis ?

That is very one-dimensional thinking, caseyjones. Go to Kent and Sussex. Then go to West Tyrone. Talk to the people there. Different worlds my friend.

NI is the only part of the UK which may potentially vote to become part of this state in the future. From the Republic's perspective, there is a huge difference between "UK" and "Northern Ireland". Huge.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see London foot the bill, but why wait around for London when we can bloody well do it ourselves?

The NI exec controls spending in NI, and they have agreed to split this project with the Republic. Its not a priority because it won't be built for several years. After years of war and economic turmoil, surely you can see that the two parts of Ireland cooperating for mutual benefit is a good thing?

casey jones

D.L.R. wrote: »

That is very one-dimensional thinking, caseyjones. Go to Kent and Sussex. Then go to West Tyrone. Talk to the people there. Different worlds my friend.

NI is the only part of the UK which may potentially vote to become part of this state in the future. From the Republic's perspective, there is a huge difference between "UK" and "Northern Ireland". Huge.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see London foot the bill, but why wait around for London when we can bloody well do it ourselves?

The NI exec controls spending in NI, and they have agreed to split this project with the Republic. Its not a priority because it won't be built for several years. After years of war and economic turmoil, surely you can see that the two parts of Ireland cooperating for mutual benefit is a good thing?

Different worlds indeed, just like east Glasgow is different to Kent. How does this justify the expenditure ? Most reasonable people believe a united Ireland is decades away if ever. Justifying expenditure on something that might happen 20 years from now is tenuous to say the least. You could build a dozen white elephants on that basis. Sure we can build it but at the expense of spending on infrastructure elsewhere in the Republic. What part of the roads project do you want see put back until this is built ?
Cooperation is great. We fund the build to the border and they fund their bit just as they do all over Europe. Nothing one dimensional about that.

D.L.R.

casey jones wrote: »

Different worlds indeed, just like east Glasgow is different to Kent. How does this justify the expenditure ? Most reasonable people believe a united Ireland is decades away if ever. Justifying expenditure on something that might happen 20 years from now is tenuous to say the least. You could build a dozen white elephants on that basis. Sure we can build it but at the expense of spending on infrastructure elsewhere in the Republic. What part of the roads project do you want see put back until this is built ?
Cooperation is great. We fund the build to the border and they fund their bit just as they do all over Europe. Nothing one dimensional about that.

I wouldn't call a major route upgrade a white elephant. Its part of the peace dividend. The north can't afford to build this road on their own. Funding from the UK is finite, and they have to budget within those limits. Meanwhile the northwest remains isolated (this includes Co. Donegal). I can understand the attitude of the Irish govt - "F*ck it, lets build the bloody thing ourselves".

Remember NI is still pretty fragile and unstable. Peace isn't just "there", it has to be maintained. Our govt is a pledged partner in NI's regeneration and this is part of that process. If spending 500mill on infrastructure up there helps to stabilise the region and maintain peace, then thats money well spent in my book. How much did the troubles cost this country? Who knows. I'll bet it was more than 500 million.

Also, I'm not sure it impacts the southern road programme at all, since the NI allocation is a seperate issue.

Zoney

E92 wrote: »

Isn't it great that the roads in the Republic are so great that we can now afford to spend £400 million on a jurisdiction that contributes nothing to the taxes of this state:rolleyes:?

Well, it's not as if the well-being of Northern Ireland has no impact on this country. Indeed that's the whole principle behind the EU regional funding Ireland has benefitted from. The rest of Europe benefits from Ireland being well-off rather than poor. Some of the central European countries are also well on their way to prosperity now they are in the EU; yes that has cost the rest of Europe some money short term, but long term the benefits are profound.

The whole concept of leaving e.g. the West of Ireland, Northwest, etc. to rot is rather short-sighted considering it is an integral part of our economy. Spending more money on the regions than they generate may be galling to some in Dublin or whatever now, but it's far better than not trying to get those regions up to speed as a well-performing part of our economy. A pity more in fact has not been spent in the past, and with a lot more planning and consideration. Dublin would have less problems too if people could more easily remain and live and work in the regions.

D.L.R.

casey jones wrote: »

Different worlds indeed, just like east Glasgow is different to Kent. How does this justify the expenditure ? Most reasonable people believe a united Ireland is decades away if ever. Justifying expenditure on something that might happen 20 years from now is tenuous to say the least. You could build a dozen white elephants on that basis. Sure we can build it but at the expense of spending on infrastructure elsewhere in the Republic. What part of the roads project do you want see put back until this is built ?
Cooperation is great. We fund the build to the border and they fund their bit just as they do all over Europe. Nothing one dimensional about that.

I wouldn't call a major route upgrade a white elephant. Its part of the peace dividend. The north can't afford to build this road on their own. Funding from the UK is finite, and they have to budget within those limits. Meanwhile the northwest remains isolated (this includes Co. Donegal). I can understand the attitude of the Irish govt - "F*ck it, lets build the bloody thing ourselves".

Remember NI is still pretty fragile and unstable. Peace isn't just "there", it has to be maintained. Our govt is a pledged partner in NI's regeneration and this is part of that process. If spending 500mill on infrastructure up there helps to stabilise the region and maintain peace, then thats money well spent in my book. How much did the troubles cost this country? Who knows. I'll bet it was more than 500 million.

Also, I'm not sure it impacts the southern road programme at all, since the NI allocation is a seperate issue.

casey jones

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Yes the troubles cost a lot of money I believe it used to be about £200 mil per annum on security alone when we had no money and yes there is a benefit to Donegal and the greater economy. However the 500 mil has to come from somewhere and if the roads budget in the south doesn't provide it then it has to come out of some budget, it's not magic money. I happen to be a fairly regular user of that road so I will benefit along with a lot of others, it just grates a bit to see Irish taxpayers money funding part of Gordon Brown's area of responsibility. I hope they recognise it.

Victor

E92 wrote: »

Isn't it great that the roads in the Republic are so great that we can now afford to spend £400 million on a jurisdiction that contributes nothing to the taxes of this state:rolleyes:?

But think of the amount of tax the government gets from northern motorists buying fuel in the south?

ardmacha

I happen to be a fairly regular user of that road so I will benefit along with a lot of others, it just grates a bit to see Irish taxpayers money funding part of Gordon Brown's area of responsibility. I hope they recognise it.

Clearly the British government should be forking out for this. but the reality is that Gordon Brown couldn't care less about this project and isn't in the least bit grateful for it.

serfboard

ardmacha wrote: »

Clearly the British government should be forking out for this. but the reality is that Gordon Brown couldn't care less about this project and isn't in the least bit grateful for it.

This is all part of a popish plot to take over - sure we'll probably put pictures of the pope on every section/interchange that "we" pay for And as for the names - well I can just forsee the "Benedict XVI roundabout" or the "John Paul II interchange".

Treachery, I tell you - treachery!!

nordydan

serfboard wrote: »

This is all part of a popish plot to take over - sure we'll probably put pictures of the pope on every section/interchange that "we" pay for And as for the names - well I can just forsee the "Benedict XVI roundabout" or the "John Paul II interchange".

Treachery, I tell you - treachery!!

Damn right. Make it a motorway so that the Orangemen can't block it!!!

johnbk

The Roads Service is holding 4 public information days for the A5 dualling scheme.

They will run from 12pm to 8pm each day at:

Monday, April 28 at Smyth Memorial Hall, Church Street, Ballygawley
Tuesday, April 29 at Silverbirch Hotel, Gortin Road, Omagh
Thursday, May 8 at Alley Theatre, Tourist Information Centre, Strabane
Friday, May 9 at the Everglades Hotel, Derry

See link below
http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/news/news-drd/news-drd-210408-information-days-on.htm

casey jones

I assume the recessionary cost cutting measures will put an end to the republic funding roads in another jurisdiction

philologos

The North West is seriously in need of some investment so I think the UK decision to make it dual carriageway is a good idea.

I think the best plan for it would be to leave the M1 as far as Ardee and discuss dualling the N2 from Ardee to Aughnacloy to meet up with the British development and improving the Letterkenny N14 from Lifford. Surely with the current structure bypassing Castleblayney it wouldn't be that much bother upgrading it to a dual carriageway in time?

That would also benefit Monaghan as well as Donegal for the Republic's side while not overspending too much with upgrading the N2 in it's entirety as the M3 and M1 will serve Meath and Louth.

Sponge Bob

Jakkass wrote: »

I think the best plan for it would be to leave the M1 as far as Ardee and discuss dualling the N2 from Ardee to Aughnacloy to meet up with the British development and improving the Letterkenny N14 from Lifford.

Thats exactly what i would do , however there is no money for this project as we all know .

serfboard

Jakkass wrote: »

I think the best plan for it would be to leave the M1 as far as Ardee and discuss dualling the N2 from Ardee to Aughnacloy to meet up with the British development and improving the Letterkenny N14 from Lifford. Surely with the current structure bypassing Castleblayney it wouldn't be that much bother upgrading it to a dual carriageway in time?

Well, it'll be a long time before anything happens, but ...

Why not leave the M1 as far as Newry (going up the new Newry bypass) and build a DC parallel to the A28? The distance (Newry-Aughnacloy) is shorter than Ardee-Aughnacloy, and it could be co-funded (if we ever get money again) with the NI administration (percentages TBD). This would also serve the recently designated city of Armagh.

philologos

Surely it's a lot more direct (hence quicker option) if it goes through Ardee though?

aquascrotum

The N2 upgrades (Carrickmacross bypass, Blayney bypass, Monaghan bypass) have only been completed in the last couple of years. There's no chance (and no reason based on traffic volumes?) to further upgrade them from HQSC.

Also the traditional NW route is Ardee/Monaghan - Armagh would be an unnecessary bottlekneck and there are no chance in hell of a dualling scheme from Aughnacloy/Armagh/Newry - this simply isn't a much travelled route at present. Armagh needs upgrades on routes into/out of the town that are actually used, ie the A3 to Portadown.

philologos

aquascrotum wrote: »

The N2 upgrades (Carrickmacross bypass, Blayney bypass, Monaghan bypass) have only been completed in the last couple of years. There's no chance (and no reason based on traffic volumes?) to further upgrade them from HQSC.

Even if it was a low grade dual it would be useful. Since the Castleblaney Bypass already has sections where it is 2 lanes on either side it would be rather easy to upgrade to dual surely?

aquascrotum

Jakkass wrote: »

Even if it was a low grade dual it would be useful. Since the Castleblaney Bypass already has sections where it is 2 lanes on either side it would be rather easy to upgrade to dual surely?

Depends what you call "easy".....no road scheme is easy. Most if not all will involve compulsory purchase orders to obtain the land (costly & time consuming). And certainly no road scheme is cheap, and definitely not when the govt is tightening the purse strings.

D.L.R.

The best route option for the southern half of the Dublin-Derry motorway would be either of:

N53 from Dundalk Bypass to Castleblayney, then N2 to the border. Rename the new route N2. A short stretch passes through Co. Armagh.

or

Upgrade the A28 Newry-Armagh-Aughnacloy. Bypassing Armagh, naturally. Rename A5.

The benefit of these routes over the traditional N2 route, is that they are significantly shorter builds, and they put more large towns on the Dublin-Derry corridor. Its hard to justify another motorway from Ardee when the M1 as far as Dundalk/Newry is heading in the general Derry direction anyway.

If you want to see this road built in the Republic, the first option is better and cheaper than the N33/N2 option, and the overall drive is only 5km longer, at 3/4 the expense.

serfboard

D.L.R. wrote: »

N53 from Dundalk Bypass to Castleblayney, then N2 to the border. Rename the new route N2. A short stretch passes through Co. Armagh.

or

Upgrade the A28 Newry-Armagh-Aughnacloy. Bypassing Armagh, naturally. Rename A5.

The benefit of these routes over the traditional N2 route, is that they are significantly shorter builds, and they put more large towns on the Dublin-Derry corridor. Its hard to justify another motorway from Ardee when the M1 as far as Dundalk/Newry is heading in the general Derry direction anyway.

Exactly.

D.L.R. wrote: »

If you want to see this road built in the Republic, the first option is better and cheaper than the N33/N2 option, and the overall drive is only 5km longer, at 3/4 the expense.

And as I suggested, if you want to see it being built at all in the current economic climate, then co-funding the second option (Newry->Aughnacloy incorporating an Armagh bypass) would be much likely to get off the ground, since there already is a motorway/DC as far as Newry anyway (and the Newry bypass is currently being built).

As for the comment that

aquascrotum wrote: »

there are no chance in hell of a dualling scheme from Aughnacloy/Armagh/Newry - this simply isn't a much travelled route at present.

This may be the case at present. But if it was part of a DC North-West motorway you would see traffic volumes increase significantly.