Poll shows big drop for FF in Dublin

ballooba

ISAW wrote:

Any you will ignore researched stats as opposed to your personal experience and opinion?

When the statistics are betraying the reality I and others are seeing around me then yes.

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics.

ISAW wrote:

So what? Most went unreported ten years ago as well? Are you claiming a higher proportion of crime goes un reported now than the same types of crime ten years ago?
prove it!

Yes I am.

Here is one report which details increasing crime levels in Ireland :
http://www.gallup-europe.be/euics/Xz38/downloads/EUICS%20-%20The%20Burden%20of%20Crime%20in%20the%20EU.pdf

ISAW wrote:

Assault is not Non serious. it is an inditable offence!

You couldnt have oficially reported crime and it not be in the stats of official "reported crime". Are you saying the Garda didnt record it and sauid you were wasting your time? That is a serious accusation about a garda not doing their duty![/QUOTE]
I'm beginning to wonder if you live in the real world at all.

ISAW wrote:

i.e. you disregarded the law and took it into your own hands to do as you pleased? You witnessed a criminal act and didnt follow through on it even though beside a station? So much for respecting "law and order" eh?

How exactly did I take the law into my own hands? Read my previous post above. Again real world.

ISAW wrote:

By you r definition. The "police state" may also be called right of centre. And others would say the republicans (who are regardes as far left) "police their own areas and keep order".

Fine Gael and PDs are traditionally know as the Law & Order parties. I'm not sure what you are referring to with Republicans. Sinn Fein have endorsed the PSNI.

ISAW wrote:

Would that be the 16000 police we now have?

No their main promise was to keep FF in line.

jjbrien

Did anbody hear why Betie said at the weekend it is our Destiny to Govern. Sould like somebody is getting too big for thier shoes. He and his cronies seem to think that god has delcared them rulers of ireland for all time. I think most people are sick of FF thinking that they will always be in power.

Múinteoir

jjbrien wrote:

Did anbody hear why Betie said at the weekend it is our Destiny to Govern. Sould like somebody is getting too big for thier shoes. He and his cronies seem to think that god has delcared them rulers of ireland for all time. I think most people are sick of FF thinking that they will always be in power.

De Valera stated that he only had to look into his own heart to know what the Irish people wanted. So no surprises there really.

ballooba

It is scary that Fianna Fail are using stability and experience as their main selling point.

Cuba and North Korea have had the same stable government for decades. Their leaders also benefit from decades of experience. Is this the ideal scenario for Fianna Fail?

K-9

ballooba wrote:

I stepped in with the help of a nearby bouncer and pulled them apart. My friend wasn't badly hurt. He didn't want to risk the Gardai lumping him in a cell too. He wanted to get home.

Most assaults don't occur right next to a Garda station anyway. More often than not when I am on a night out in Dublin I see people assaulted.

I never mentioned burglaries. The crimes committed on my property were a hit and run on my car and vandalism of my car. I'm talking about people not reporting crime because there is no point but also Gardai not writing stuff up because there is no point. Non-violent crime is not a priority.

It was your friends choice not to report it. He had an independent witness so he wouldn't have been thrown into a cell as well.

The hit and run and vandalism on your car are going to be hard to prove unless there is witnesses. Unfortunately that is going to be the case no matter what Government is in power. How are FG/Lab going to change that? I would be interested in knowing how they are? If they have some policies that are going to cut down assaults and vandalism then I would like to know them.

Most assaults are drink related. This is more a cultural and parental problem than a Government problem. The Govt. can only advise and educate on drink problems.

What pay imbalances are you talking about? CEO's getting paid more than departmental heads of the Civil Service. The Government cannot intervene in the private sector on wage rates, other than a minimum wage. There is the social partnership process, which Govt. Employers and Unions all agree on and sign.

May non nationals will stay in Ireland and pay taxes. It's easy to say they will all go home. Just look at the Irish emigrating, many choose to stay in other countries and pay taxes and contribute to other countries.

Roads and Rail infrastructure has improved. How many motorways and dual carriageways do we have now compared to 5/10 years ago.

FG are the law and order party. Remind me who was in Govt. when Veronica Guerin was shot. FG did introduce CAB , it was a necessary response to the violent crime at the time. Does that mean they are a law and order party, not necessarily. DeVelera and Des O'Malley where tough on the IRA as well.

FF have been in power because they are the most successful political party in Ireland. They where democratically elected. How is that a problem?

ballooba

Seanies32 wrote:

The hit and run and vandalism on your car are going to be hard to prove unless there is witnesses.

I had a witness to the hit and run. The Garda chose to resolve the matter outside of the system.

Seanies32 wrote:

What pay imbalances are you talking about?

Public sector workers earn 35-40% more than their private sector counterparts.

Seanies32 wrote:

Roads and Rail infrastructure has improved. How many motorways and dual carriageways do we have now compared to 5/10 years ago.

I would hardly expect it to dis-improve. It hasn't improved quickly enough. How long have we been waiting for the Navan rail line? How long will we be waiting for the two Luas line to be built?

Seanies32 wrote:

FF have been in power because they are the most successful political party in Ireland. They where democratically elected. How is that a problem?

People get the government they deserve. If the people elect Fianna Fail again then good luck to them. They should remember what Charlie Haughey was doing while he was in power and that Bertie was in cahoots with him.

Fianna Fail think that they are beyond reproach. We have Dick Roche claiming he is not responsible for his own election posters, we had Noel Killeen claiming no responsibility for letters signed in his name, we have Bertie claiming no responsibility for cheques he signed and not so long ago we had Michael Martin claiming that as Minister for Health he had no responsibility for failings at that department.

K-9

ballooba wrote:

I had a witness to the hit and run. The Garda chose to resolve the matter outside of the system.

Public sector workers earn 35-40% more than their private sector counterparts.

I would hardly expect it to dis-improve. It hasn't improved quickly enough. How long have we been waiting for the Navan rail line? How long will we be waiting for the two Luas line to be built?

People get the government they deserve. If the people elect Fianna Fail again then good luck to them. They should remember what Charlie Haughey was doing while he was in power and that Bertie was in cahoots with him.

Fianna Fail think that they are beyond reproach. We have Dick Roche claiming he is not responsible for his own election posters, we had Noel Killeen claiming no responsibility for letters signed in his name, we have Bertie claiming no responsibility for cheques he signed and not so long ago we had Michael Martin claiming that as Minister for Health he had no responsibility for failings at that department.

How did the Guards resolve it outside the system. Did he repay you for the damage done?

Saying public servants earn 35-40% more than Private sector workers is a generalisation. I'm sure teachers, accountants, solicitors and nurses would agree with you. Clerical workers in construction get €30,000 - 35,000 p.a. I'm sure clerical workers in the Public Sector would love that money. You can pick arguments to suit your opinion very easily.

The Government brought in a high minimum wage which the employers are not happy with. Other than that there is very little they can do about private sector pay. That's what unions are for and they where happy with the social partnership deal.

It's only in the last 5 years that a serious capital expenditure program has occurred. The economy and taxes needed to be improved first to get the finances to meet this. Again look at the motorways/dual carriageways that are being built. Very little was spent on rail and road by successive governments. You can't expect this to be rectified in 5 years.

On ministerial responsibility, same as it ever was.FG/Lab as guilty of this as FF. Wasn't it Labour who brought in all the personal advisors.

You still haven't suggested how a Rainbow Govt. is going to miracously improve law and order, roads, rail and private sector pay. It's easier to look at the problems and not see the real improvements that are happening. Change for changes sake isn't a good reason for a new Government

ballooba

Seanies32 wrote:

How did the Guards resolve it outside the system. Did he repay you for the damage done?

Yes. I got my money. He never got charged though. Very difficult to argue with the Garda when they are getting you €1,600.

Seanies32 wrote:

Saying public servants earn 35-40% more than Private sector workers is a generalisation.

On average they do. That means job for job. Their terms and conditions are a lot more favourable too. Fine Gael will outline proposals for public sector reform at the weekend. This is one of my main election issues.

Seanies32 wrote:

The Government brought in a high minimum wage which the employers are not happy with.

I'm not saying private sector wages should go up. Public sector wages are driving inflation. Public sector wages should be cut or frozen.

Seanies32 wrote:

It's only in the last 5 years that a serious capital expenditure program has occurred. The economy and taxes needed to be improved first to get the finances to meet this. Again look at the motorways/dual carriageways that are being built. Very little was spent on rail and road by successive governments. You can't expect this to be rectified in 5 years.

20 years actually. The boom in the economy is over. A Bloomberg report yesterday was particularly interesting, export growth is currently at 1.7% down from 6.6% two years ago. You can't have an economic boom based on an internal property market.

Our whole economy is based on us borrowing money from foreign banks to buy and sell houses to each other. The whole economy at the moment is based on personal debt. Fianna Fail squandered the boom.

Seanies32 wrote:

You still haven't suggested how a Rainbow Govt. is going to miracously improve law and order, roads, rail and private sector pay.

You seriously want me to outline the policies of three parties on all of those topics in this thread. I would suggest you go read them yourself.

Also, your comments regarding public/private sector pay would suggest that you are not that well informed on the issues. If that's the case then a read of the policies from all the parties might be an idea.

A few policies on the topics you mention above.

Transport:
- Greens : Proper rail network, Luas for regional cities.
- Labour : Integrated ticketing, single flat rate fare for Dublin Bus.
- Fine Gael : Bus Competition, Feeder Buses for Rail, Park & Ride, No New Private Tolls, Proper Traffic Corps

Public Sector Reform:
- Joint Fine Gael / Labour proposal on Dail Reform
- Fine Gael proposals on Public Sector reform to be announced this weekend.

Law and Order
- Labour & Fine Gael: Effective community policing, Reform of Garda Training, Continuous learning for Gardai, Focus on best practice management, improved accountability and transparency, proper equipment for Gardai.
- Fine Gael: Sentencing reform, New bail act, Anti-Social Behaviour fund including diversion for young people (sports, activities).
- Fine Gael: Drunk tanks, High Intensity Training model for Young Offenders Institutions.

www.finegael.ie
www.labour.ie
www.greenparty.ie

Dr Galen

ballooba wrote:

On average they do. That means job for job. Their terms and conditions are a lot more favourable too. Fine Gael will outline proposals for public sector reform at the weekend. This is one of my main election issues.

I'm not saying private sector wages should go up. Public sector wages are driving inflation. Public sector wages should be cut or frozen.

a lot of what u say i agree with. and in essence i agree with Public Sector reform too. I'll be very interested in what FG propose at the weekend. I'd like to see proper investigation into individual public sector departments and agencies, not as you suggest, complete across the board freezing or cutting of wages.

i work in the public sector and feel i don't get enough for what i do. but i have a mate who also works in the dept of xxxx behind a desk. he gets far too much for what he does and his level of responsibility. admits this himself. can you see my point here

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

20 years actually. The boom in the economy is over. A Bloomberg report yesterday was particularly interesting, export growth is currently at 1.7% down from 6.6% two years ago. You can't have an economic boom based on an internal property market.

Rofl.
You cant have exponential growth for ever and ever either,it has to level off somewhere.
You need money sloshing about in an economy to keep it going and theres no shortage of it from what I can see at the tills in B and Q or the car show rooms.
It doesn't matter a fiddle what country the borrowing to fund the cash flow comes from as long as the wages are there to fund the repayments and by and large they are.

Our whole economy is based on us borrowing money from foreign banks to buy and sell houses to each other. The whole economy at the moment is based on personal debt. Fianna Fail squandered the boom.

Rofl You don't know how like Eamon develara you are sounding there.

I know you are trying to make a point that your lads would have done it better-maybe they would-who knows but hey labouring the point to beyond reason isn't good.
Seán has a fair point regarding how its only in recent years that this economy has been able to increasingly fund it's own infrastructure.
It has had to catch up.I can drive 90 miles now to the north or the west from where I live and 84miles of that will be on dual carriageway/motorway.Most of that was done in recent years and has cost hundreds of millions.
At the risk of tickling your Fine Gael underarm by flashing the FF 2002 slogan at you but It is fair to suggest now that there was a lot done and that there is a lot more to do.

By the way I notice you didn't deal with his point regarding the last rainbow administrations sea of expensive advisors.
I've seen a lot of elections come and go and voted for all the parties in my lifetime and I can tell you one thing,I've concluded that my signiture just about sums up the only reason they are worth changing-because it's healthy to do so every once and a while.It keeps them on their toes.

I'm under no illusion that FG will avoid waste and mistakes.It's easy to say that they will.They won't.They'll probably do a better job in some areas and worse in others and end up with a comparable over all result.

ballooba

nurse_baz wrote:

i work in the public sector and feel i don't get enough for what i do. but i have a mate who also works in the dept of xxxx behind a desk. he gets far too much for what he does and his level of responsibility. admits this himself. can you see my point here

There was an interesting letter in the Irish Independent yesterday on the proportion of health spend which goes on Administration. In Ireland it is currently at 44%, according to the letter, and in the UK it is just under 6%.

I wouldn't comment on nurses pay. I have seen the work they do and honestly feel they are underappreciated.

skearon

ballooba wrote:

There was an interesting letter in the Irish Independent yesterday on the proportion of health spend which goes on Administration. In Ireland it is currently at 44%, according to the letter, and in the UK it is just under 6%.

And you believe everything you read in the papers ? :-)

It depends on the defination of administration.

It is estimated that 64% of health services personnel formally classified as "management / administrative" are involved in direct service provision to the public. A report of the commission on financial management and control systems concluded that 10 out of every 11 additional employees recruited since 1997 are engaged in duties of direct service to patients and the public.

In the Irish Healthcare workforce there are 12.2 nurses per 1,000. In Canada that figure is seven, across the EU it is approximately 8.5 and in the UK it is eight. We actually have a lot of nurses in the health care system.

ballooba

Tristrame wrote:

You cant have exponential growth for ever and ever either,it has to level off somewhere.

The same article was singing the praises of the economy because we have 6% growth. If the growth in the economy is not coming from export markets then it is purely internal. The article was referring to a two-year slide in export growth, not a blip.

Most of the wages you speak of are coming from Property and Civil Service jobs. The former is beind funded by personal debt. The latter is funded to a large extent by Stamp Duty Receipts which are also funded by personal debt.

Already we are seeing people with negative equity having their houses repossessed. The market has slowed down in Ireland according to estate agents and mortgage lenders (friends working in the industry). Sub-prime lending has gone belly up in the states. Together with ECB interest rate hikes that means the whole mortgage situation is bunched.

Tristrame wrote:

Rofl You don't know how like Eamon develara you are sounding there.

Maybe it was a bit dramatic. That's my take on the FF spin anyway.

Tristrame wrote:

At the risk of tickling your Fine Gael underarm by flashing the FF 2002 slogan at you but It is fair to suggest now that there was a lot done and that there is a lot more to do.

Noel Dempey ran posters in Navan in 2002 bearing that slogan and a picture of a train. They didn't achieve the goals set out in the last NDP. All that stuff now goes into the new NDP, which again they won't achieve.

Tristrame wrote:

By the way I notice you didn't deal with his point regarding the last rainbow administrations sea of expensive advisors.

I was quite young during the term of the last government and I do remember the contraversy around this. I'm not completely au fait with it so I will have to go and read up a bit.

Tristrame wrote:

I've seen a lot of elections come and go and voted for all the parties in my lifetime and I can tell you one thing,I've concluded that my signiture just about sums up the only reason they are worth changing-because it's healthy to do so every once and a while. It keeps them on their toes.

The only reason I orignially took an interest in politics was because I was disillusioned with the current government. I joined Fine Gael because they are the largest opposition party and fit closely with my ideals.

The Progressive Democrats are probably a closer fit but given that they have been in league with Fianna Fail for ten years and McDowell is their leader I joined Fine Gael.

Dr Galen

skearon wrote:

And you believe everything you read in the papers ? :-)

It depends on the defination of administration.

It is estimated that 64% of health services personnel formally classified as "management / administrative" are involved in direct service provision to the public. A report of the commission on financial management and control systems concluded that 10 out of every 11 additional employees recruited since 1997 are engaged in duties of direct service to patients and the public.

In the Irish Healthcare workforce there are 12.2 nurses per 1,000. In Canada that figure is seven, across the EU it is approximately 8.5 and in the UK it is eight. We actually have a lot of nurses in the health care system.

this report came direct from the HSE, and certainly seems to say that there is a growing admin culture in this countries health system.

i certainly don't want to hijack thi sthread regarding this issue, but if we honestly have that many more nurses where do we have a situation where there appears to chronic lack of nurses on the wards looking after the patients ( and for tht mtter doctors/physions and esp OT's) and so many managers/admin staff. the optimum number for nurse to patient ratio is 1:4, that is 1 nurse for every 4 patients in the general hospital setting. any less than this and morbibity numbers go up. it is a regular ocurance for the irish ratio to be 1:6 or 1:8. within this thred thats all i'd say on the matter

ballooba

skearon wrote:

And you believe everything you read in the papers ? :-)

The letter was from a nurse. Not written by a journalist.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

Already we are seeing people with negative equity having their houses repossessed. The market has slowed down in Ireland according to estate agents and mortgage lenders (friends working in the industry). Sub-prime lending has gone belly up in the states. Together with ECB interest rate hikes that means the whole mortgage situation is bunched.

[Gift Grub Marian Finnucane voice to Enda Kenny (croaky-they make her out to smoke an awfull awfull lot)]

And Hooooooooooooooooooooooow are you going to fix that ?

[/end Marian voice]

OT but I found "enda Vs Bertie" on my ipod the other day( I must have put it on a year or more ago and never listened to it ) and laughed out loud a lot. Gift grub ftw

ballooba

Tristrame wrote:

And Hooooooooooooooooooooooow are you going to fix that ?

Given that Fianna Fail get most of their funding from the builders in the tent at the Galway Races it was always in their interest to have a property based boom. Their funding is safe while the people are weighed down with personal debt.

I don't believe Fianna Fail have a plan in the event of a downturn. This has been happening for years now where an increasing amount of our GDP was based on the property market. They are still telling us that everything is fine. The front page of the Irish Times today would beg to differ as would the front page of the Indo a few days back.

I'm not sure what the Fine Gael / Labour / Green plan in the event of a downturn would be. At least they recognise the possibility though.

In terms of how it could have been avoided. Fianna Fail should have been giving proper support to indigenous firms over the last 10 years or so while the economy was doing well. We should have been building our own multinationals in areas such as technology, renewables and organic foods. We obviously have the talent here.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

In terms of how it could have been avoided. Fianna Fail should have been giving proper support to indigenous firms over the last 10 years or so while the economy was doing well. We should have been building our own multinationals in areas such as technology, renewables and organic foods. We obviously have the talent here.

We're a small island Balooba,I don't share your confidence that we can tax subsidise indigenous industry in those areas to compete with world wide corporations.I'm sure we could do some(and have done) but not in the quantity to make a difference.It looks to me like a Ginormous task.

By the way I think a lot of this thread could go into the policies thread.
I'll move some posts there later if I have time.

ballooba

Tristrame wrote:

We're a small island Balooba,I don't share your confidence that we can tax subsidise indigenous industry in those areas to compete with world wide corporations.

I'm not talking about subsidies necessarily. I have said it here before, the government is actually impeding companies like Airtricity in order to protect the state monopoly at ESB.

I'm not sure why they are holding back BioFuels firms, but it is a complete nightmare to set one of these up here. I can supply newspaper articles and letters to support that view. The government would rather subsidise imported fuel than support indigenous producers or even allow them do business.

Fine Gael, hopefully with the help of Brody Sweeney when he is elected, want to establish a Green Ireland food brand. He hopes to build a brand and a profile for Irish foods abroad so that they can command a premium price. Ireland has a green repuation, so why not capitalise on it. There may be a case for renaming Bord Bia, Irish language names may be great for patriotism but they are not so good for marketing overseas.

Hopefully under the Green Ireland brand we can get a thriving Organics sector going too.

Múinteoir

ballooba wrote:

Fine Gael, hopefully with the help of Brody Sweeney when he is elected, want to establish a Green Ireland food brand. He hopes to build a brand and a profile for Irish foods abroad so that they can command a premium price. Ireland has a green repuation, so why not capitalise on it. There may be a case for renaming Bord Bia, Irish language names may be great for patriotism but they are not so good for marketing overseas.

Hopefully under the Green Ireland brand we can get a thriving Organics sector going too.

Hmm, I wonder where FG got that policy from?

ballooba

M&#250 wrote: »

Hmm, I wonder where FG got that policy from?

Eh... Brody Sweeney.
The man behind O'Briens Sandwich Bars.
Also, Fine Gael candidate for Dublin North-East.

No offence, but I don't think he needs advice from the Green Party on how to market food.

http://www.brodysweeney.ie/greenireland.asp

K-9

ballooba wrote:

Yes. I got my money. He never got charged though. Very difficult to argue with the Garda when they are getting you €1,600.

On average they do. That means job for job. Their terms and conditions are a lot more favourable too. Fine Gael will outline proposals for public sector reform at the weekend. This is one of my main election issues.


You seriously want me to outline the policies of three parties on all of those topics in this thread. I would suggest you go read them yourself.

Also, your comments regarding public/private sector pay would suggest that you are not that well informed on the issues. If that's the case then a read of the policies from all the parties might be an idea.

A few policies on the topics you mention above.

Transport:
- Greens : Proper rail network, Luas for regional cities.
- Labour : Integrated ticketing, single flat rate fare for Dublin Bus.
- Fine Gael : Bus Competition, Feeder Buses for Rail, Park & Ride, No New Private Tolls, Proper Traffic Corps

Public Sector Reform:
- Joint Fine Gael / Labour proposal on Dail Reform
- Fine Gael proposals on Public Sector reform to be announced this weekend.

Law and Order
- Labour & Fine Gael: Effective community policing, Reform of Garda Training, Continuous learning for Gardai, Focus on best practice management, improved accountability and transparency, proper equipment for Gardai.
- Fine Gael: Sentencing reform, New bail act, Anti-Social Behaviour fund including diversion for young people (sports, activities).
- Fine Gael: Drunk tanks, High Intensity Training model for Young Offenders Institutions.

Of course they have some policies, some good, some quite mad from the ones you just listed above. They have had the last 10 years to come up with some half decent policies.

On public sector pay, I am more informed than to introduce a generalisation of 35-40% in pay with the private sector and not recognise inequalities that actually go against those figures.

Will Fine Gael introduce performance appraisal for teachers, nurses etc as part of their proposals? I hope when they are talking about reform they just don't mention the populist issues like waste of funds.

All sides have a share of the blame for the health service. Not attacking nurses personally but one of the reasons the Cork maternity didn't open last week was they where looking for increased relocation expenses, as admitted by their union. And as for consultants! :mad:

All the evidence so far based on the last six months on the property market would suggest a slowdown as you say. And this is a bad thing or do you want to see prices go up like they have? It looks like the interest rates came at a good time before there was a serious danger of a crash. Years of being attacked for a boom and now getting attacked when the market levels off!

Personal debt as increased but it will be interesting to see levels of savings that people have when the SSIA's all mature.

On economic downturns, FF have the track record on finances during these times. Ray McSharry in 87 and McCreevy in 02/03.

I still can't see why FG are the law and order party. Why did they have to introduce the CAB?

McSandwich

Seanies32 wrote:

I hope when they are talking about reform they just don't mention the populist issues like waste of funds.

A populist issue for a good reason - it's our bleedin' money being wasted :mad:

K-9

Not saying it isn't. Compare productivity/performance between private and public nurses, teachers etc. as well, that's all I'm saying. Extra pay for them but also more productive/modern work practices.

ballooba

Seanies32 wrote:

On public sector pay, I am more informed than to introduce a generalisation of 35-40% in pay with the private sector and not recognise inequalities that actually go against those figures.

Well, you were the one who thought raising private sector pay in line with public sector pay was a good idea. (hint: inflation)

Seanies32 wrote:

Will Fine Gael introduce performance appraisal for teachers, nurses etc as part of their proposals?

Do I look like Enda Kenny? How am I supposed to know. Wait until the Ard Fheis.

Seanies32 wrote:

All the evidence so far based on the last six months on the property market would suggest a slowdown as you say. And this is a bad thing or do you want to see prices go up like they have?

Have you completely missed the point? Our whole economy is based on the property market at the moment. If the housing market slows, the economy slows. (unemployment etc.)

Seanies32 wrote:

Personal debt as increased but it will be interesting to see levels of savings that people have when the SSIA's all mature.

Comments like that should be thought through before being published. Perhaps if those people's SSIAs come through quick enough they will have enough saved to offset the negative equity on their houses and sell up.

Seanies32 wrote:

I still can't see why FG are the law and order party. Why did they have to introduce the CAB?

Are you saying they shouldn't have introduced the CAB? Do you not think that the CAB has done tremendous work since their establishment? What alternative would you like to propose?

K-9

ballooba wrote:

Well, you were the one who thought raising private sector pay in line with public sector pay was a good idea. (hint: inflation)

Do I look like Enda Kenny? How am I supposed to know. Wait until the Ard Fheis.

Have you completely missed the point? Our whole economy is based on the property market at the moment. If the housing market slows, the economy slows. (unemployment etc.)

Comments like that should be thought through before being published. Perhaps if those people's SSIAs come through quick enough they will have enough saved to offset the negative equity on their houses and sell up.

Are you saying they shouldn't have introduced the CAB? Do you not think that the CAB has done tremendous work since their establishment? What alternative would you like to propose?

No, in some instances public sector pay is less than private sector, that is a fact, not a ganeralisation. It is not a good way to address the pay imbalance by quoting a 35/40% pay difference and not recognising variances.

Where did I say it was a good idea to raise private sector pay? Again in certain instances it may be applicable.

My point on FG is they should address all Public sector waste, including perormance tests. Maybe he wouldn't want that himself as he is teacher who in on sabbatical leave.

On economics, of course there is going to be a recession of some description. FF avoided this on 02/03. They are the tried and tested party in these matters.

I take it there are examples and reports on the negative equity situations?

Off course, CAB was a good idea. All governments have of course brought in good laws. Again, why was it introduced by Nora Owen? I'm raising this to address the misconception that FG are the law and order party.

McSandwich

Seanies32 wrote:

Not saying it isn't. Compare productivity/performance between private and public nurses, teachers etc. as well, that's all I'm saying. Extra pay for them but also more productive/modern work practices.

I don't think it's that simple. The private sector has the advantage as it can choose who it serves whereas the public sector has to cater for everyone. For example, a private school can 'cherry pick' the best students and so will always appear to perform better, i.e. produce students with better leaving cert. results, than the local 'competing' public school.

Saying that, public pay scales are fixed, which does nothing to encourage productivity. Two teachers, civil servants, nurses, etc. on the same salary increment - one lazy, one highly motivated will be paid exactly the same (even with current performance appraisal - PMDS). A basic salary + performance related bonus system, similar to the way private business operates, might see more efficiency and work output in the public/ civil service.

Another problem - the way budgets are managed in the public sector encourages wasteful spending. The attitude is that if the money allocated this year isn't spent in full then next year's budget will be reduced accordingly..

ballooba

Seanies32 wrote:

No, in some instances public sector pay is less than private sector, that is a fact, not a ganeralisation. It is not a good way to address the pay imbalance by quoting a 35/40% pay difference and not recognising variances.

Give examples of where public sector pay is lower than private sector for the same work.

Seanies32 wrote:

On economics, of course there is going to be a recession of some description. FF avoided this on 02/03. They are the tried and tested party in these matters.

The only reason the avoided a recession was through the property bubble. Real economic growth never picked up after the slowdown in 2002/03 this was highlighted in George Lee's documentary.

Seanies32 wrote:

I take it there are examples and reports on the negative equity situations?

Yes there are, again I have to ask, do you live in the real world?

Thankfully I don't have to go trawling through the web. There's an example in today's Indo.
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1801794&issue_id=15420

From that article wrote:

However, people who have bought homes in the past 12 months or so - particularly in commuter and "less desirable" areas - are facing the reality that they are unlikely to get the price they paid for their home if they were to sell today.

Seanies32 wrote:

Off course, CAB was a good idea. All governments have of course brought in good laws. Again, why was it introduced by Nora Owen? I'm raising this to address the misconception that FG are the law and order party.

To seize the proceeds of crime. How does that conflict with a stance of being tough on crime?

K-9

McSandwich wrote:

I don't think it's that simple. The private sector has the advantage as it can choose who it serves whereas the public sector has to cater for everyone. For example, a private school can 'cherry pick' the best students and so will always appear to perform better, i.e. produce students with better leaving cert. results, than the local 'competing' public school.

Saying that, public pay scales are fixed, which does nothing to encourage productivity. Two teachers, civil servants, nurses, etc. on the same salary increment - one lazy, one highly motivated will be paid exactly the same (even with current performance appraisal - PMDS). A basic salary + performance related bonus system, similar to the way private business operates, might see more efficiency and work output in the public/ civil service.

Another problem - the way budgets are managed in the public sector encourages wasteful spending. The attitude is that if the money allocated this year isn't spent in full then next year's budget will be reduced accordingly..

Agree with you, lot's of issues have to be looked. That's why I didn't mention nurses specifically.

Nurse in the public sector could probably have a worse working environment e.g. Health and Safety issues. It needs to be looked at in it's entireity.

ballooba

I have mentioned on this forum before that there is a lot of empty houses knocking around. Section 23 etc.

The figures released by the census today say 15% of housing stock is vacant. That represents 266,000 units.