How do you react to fundamentalists?

Sangre

I'm just wondering how often the 'average' Muslim (especially in Ireland) encounters what one could call a fundamentalist and how do you react to it? Now obviously every religion has their fundamentalists e.g. Christians have their Creationists etc., but I'm specifically wondering about the Islamic reaction because of all the recent press coverage, not to mention the violent, terrorist actions of some these fundamentalists.

Have you ever encountered those who are so fundamental to the point they wish violence on infidels or 'the west'. Or how about those who base other forms of violence on the Qur'an e.g. corporal punishment/death sentences in Saudi?

Would you ever argue them on theological points or would you be slightly afraid? Would you just let it go or do you feel obligated to set them right?

Of course I realise there is the point that a true fundamentalist Muslim wouldn't be a terrorist but that isn't what I'm looking for in this thread.

philologos

Creationists wouldn't really be considered fundementalist Christians.

Sangre

I'm talking a genesis is literally true, not a 'god made earth' creationist. Although if you think the former isn't, then what would be a fundamentalist?

edited to add this isnt the place for this.

InFront

All that “fundamentalist” actually means is an adherence to, or a promotion of, the fundamental principles of a religion.
This gives the impression that violence is a 'fundamental' of Islam, which is not really true, except where absolutely necessary. That is why it is frustrating to hear guys like Anjem Choudry or Bin Laden being referred to as Islamic fundamentalists, when there is nothing fundamentally Islamic in the sort of violence they support.
If I did know somebody who was pushing or plotting violence, like you, and I'm sure like the other users, I'd go to the police instead of posting it here!:) But no, personally I haven't.
To answer the second part of your question, yes I think it is imperative upon every Muslim to point out mistakes in understanding.
If I say something here that is factually incorrect, it's much better to be corrected than to go on believing the mistake. So I think it would be a big mistake not to argue and question someone who subscribes to support of terrorism in the name of Islam.

InFront

Forgot to add...
Much more importantly than any of that: what does Islam say about terrorism?

Islam is quite clear on murder of innocent civilians: it is haraam (unlawful, not permissable). This is the case no matter who does it. This fatwa makes it quite clear (extracted):

1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam.

2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.

3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.

wes

Well, I have never met a fundy in the Bin Laden sense, but these guys have no real issue with killing other Muslims. If I remember correctly, most terrorist attacks by Muslims have actually killed other Muslims for the most part.

Back to the Bin Laden types, well there equal part politics, as much as misinterpreted religion. Much of there motivation is the Palestinian issue and as they see it "occupation of Muslim holy lands" referring to American army bases in Saudi Arabia. The political component is what separates Bin Laden and his ilk from the Saudis for the most part. I think there views on how to run a country are basically the same. The difference is that the terrorists have even lower value for human life.

As for the Saudis (I mean the government and not the people when I refer to Saudis btw), personally there hypocrites and I won't say anymore, as they aren't the kind of things you say in polite company.

Sangre

Well I know they're not true fundamentalists, I was using the moderen or media term for it e.g. 'nutjobs'. I though my last sentence pointed that out. I don't think Muslim terrorists are real Muslims anymore than I think those whole blow up abortion clinics are real Christians.

I suppose Ireland isn't exactly a fundie breeding ground.

philologos

Sangre wrote:

I'm talking a genesis is literally true, not a 'god made earth' creationist. Although if you think the former isn't, then what would be a fundamentalist?

edited to add this isnt the place for this.

Infact, actually considering the definition of fundementalist given above I suppose we are fundementalists since we are promoting the core principles of our religion. In the context of fundementalists that you are using you mean extremists, which Creationists aren't.

the_new_mr

I agree that the word fundamentalist is misleading since the true meaning of this word would be someone who sticks to their religion's fundamentals so I would propose that people stop using this term in this way even when they mean the kind of terrorist fellows we see on the news.

I've never met someone like this either thank God. And for sure, if I ever met one, I would be a religious and moral obligation to set them right. Their crazy ideas are usually down to ignorance and brainwashing.

I'd have to say though that I don't think it's extreme to support corporal punishments or death penalties as long as they are carried out in a correct and just manner.

Sangre

Jakkass wrote:

Infact, actually considering the definition of fundementalist given above I suppose we are fundementalists since we are promoting the core principles of our religion. In the context of fundementalists that you are using you mean extremists, which Creationists aren't.

Stop being pedantic, you knew exactly what I meant. I was using the media buzzword for it.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well you shouldn't have! if you don't know what you mean how do you expect people to be able to respond properly to your question.

i'd imagine muslims feel the same way about terrorists who label themselves muslim as christians feel about terrorists who label themselves christians..as far as individual terrorism goes anyway. as for state terrorism.. christians are far and away the most murderous and extreme, not out of any particular christian reason.. but they do claim to be christian.. much as 'laden and the boyz claim to be muslim.

have you posted a similar question on the christianity forum? and if not, why not? .. 's just a little bigoted of you, don't you think?

InFront

Mordeth you are right about these terrorists defacing Islam, but please don't call Sangre a bigot!:)

It is a useful question there's no harm in it.

Sangre

I used 'fundamentalist' because I thought everyone would know what I was talking about, especially given the context of my post and my last line disclaimer. I specifically added that at the end so I wouldn't have to go through this, oh well!

So we'll be using extremists from now on then.

The reason I haven't asked the question on Christianity mordeth because violent Christian extremists aren't in the media much lately. Stop trying to wind me up

InFront

Sangre wrote:

So we'll be using extremists from now on then.

Sorry to hijack the thread like this; but even the word extremist, I'm not sure how correct it is. It sort of suggests if you are religious enough, or Muslim enough, you'll eventually be dangerous. As though Islam were a dial you can turn up or turn down. It's almost as bad as "moderate Muslim" (do they get moderately pregnant?)

Anyway, pedantry over. Everyone knows what you meant of course, I'm sure we've all used these words at some stage and I doubt that anyone is offended. But lets just call a spade a spade. A terrorist is a terrorist and a Muslim is a Muslim.

Sangre

I think extremists refers more to their actions than beliefs...

Anyway, enough of that!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I didn't call him a bigot, I just pointed out a certain bigotry in the way he phrased the question and who he asked the question of.. and damn you sangre for not rising to the bait.

next time.... next time


and violent christian extremists are very much in the media these days, they're just referred to as coalition forces.

philologos

Mordeth wrote:

i'd imagine muslims feel the same way about terrorists who label themselves muslim as christians feel about terrorists who label themselves christians..as far as individual terrorism goes anyway. as for state terrorism.. christians are far and away the most murderous and extreme, not out of any particular christian reason.. but they do claim to be christian.. much as 'laden and the boyz claim to be muslim.

Disgusting manipulation of religion. But all we can do, whether we are Muslim or Christian is show our utter disgust at how people could claim that religion brought them to incite violence.

fly_agaric

Mordeth wrote:

and violent christian extremists are very much in the media these days, they're just referred to as coalition forces.

I bet you didn't know that all members of the armed forces in the US or any Euro country involved in Iraq or Afghanistan must swear an oath that they will die or kill in battle for the Glory of Jesus Christ the Saviour?
So there!

philologos

fly_agaric wrote:

I bet you didn't know that all members of the armed forces in the US or any Euro country involved in Iraq or Afghanistan must swear an oath that they will die or kill in battle for the Glory of Jesus Christ the Saviour?
So there!

They gave out Bibles to the people in Iraq when they dropped down food after the Baghdad bombings. But that doesn't mean they act in the interest of Christianity on the battlefield.

Hobbes

fly_agaric wrote:

I bet you didn't know that all members of the armed forces in the US or any Euro country involved in Iraq or Afghanistan must swear an oath that they will die or kill in battle for the Glory of Jesus Christ the Saviour?
So there!

Bull****.

Also bring it back on topic. We aren't discussing Christianity here.

stevejazzx

the_new_mr wrote:

I'd have to say though that I don't think it's extreme to support corporal punishments or death penalties as long as they are carried out in a correct and just manner.

?
How did you get on to the death penalty. Hasn't your suggestion already been tried in many countries, the Uk and US to name just 2 and hasn't it systematically failed in both lands becasue of human error and the irreconcilible notions of how some crimes fulfill the criteria for the death penalty and others don't.

the_new_mr

It succeeds in other countries. Saudi Arabia, with all it's problems, is one country where it is carried out well. I think people are put through 7 separate court trials or something like that before anyone can be sentenced with the death penalty there. At least they got something right. As Wes pointed out earlier. The Saudi government are hypocrites.

Anyway, I was just making my point that I don't think that believing in the use of the death penalty makes you out to be an "extremist" (for want of a better term) as a response to a comment earlier that mentioned corporal punishments and death penalties (but it seems that that text has now been removed).

Sangre

I referenced it in my first post new_mr.

Actually, are the Saudi punishments/death penalties based on their notion of Islamic teaching? Do they think the Quran supports it (I would imagine so). Do they think it demands them to kill people for certain crimes?

stevejazzx

the_new_mr wrote:

It succeeds in other countries. Saudi Arabia, with all it's problems, is one country where it is carried out well. I think people are put through 7 separate court trials or something like that before anyone can be sentenced with the death penalty there. At least they got something right. As Wes pointed out earlier. The Saudi government are hypocrites.

Has anyone after six of the seven trials ever been found to be innocent? Has anyone killed ever found to be at a later time innocent? The death penalty is accpeted as one of the most flawed ideas in the history of the world.

the_new_mr

I'm afraid I can't answer your questions stevejazzx as I honestly don't know. My Uncle was telling me about it and he used to live there. I guess since they have 7 separate court cases then it's likely that someone has gotten out with one of them falling in their favour. As far as I know, if there is any doubt at all as to crime then the death penalty cannot be carried out. It is possible (and unfortunately, likely keeping in mind some of their other flaws) that Saudi Arabia are not carrying out this part of Islamic law correctly so I thought I'd mention that before someone comes along with some example

stevejazzx wrote:

The death penalty is accpeted as one of the most flawed ideas in the history of the world.

You say this as if it's some kind of fact. It isn't.

And to answer your questions Sangre. Yes, yes and yes.

stevejazzx

the_new_mr wrote:

You say this as if it's some kind of fact. It isn't.

.

Sorry for going off topic.
It is actually a fact. See below, 80% of the entire world governments consider the penalty wrong. Where it does exist it is being slowly discontinued. The US remains one of the biggest barriers in removing it completely. Every independant report ever comissioned on the subject has illustrated the flaws and inconsistancies that are automatically inherent within any death sentencing system. Amnesty international supported by all the worlds major governments is actively pursuing the abolition of all death penalties across the world.

>>>If this isn't evidence that the death is accepted as one of historys greatets flaws then I don't know what is. <<<

On 30 November, 537 cities in 31 countries from Bishkek in Kyrgyzstan to Atananarivo in Madagascar, participated in the Cities for Life events, lighting up public buildings and holding candle lit vigils to demonstrate their opposition to the death penalty

. Progress towards worldwide abolition
Over 40 countries have abolished the death penalty for all crimes since 1990. They include countries in Africa (recent examples include Liberia, Côte d’Ivoire), the Americas (Canada, Paraguay, Mexico), Asia and the Pacific (Philippines, Bhutan. Samoa) and Europe and Central Asia ( Albania, Moldova, Montenegro, Serbia, Turkey

<LI type=disc>

89 countries and territories have abolished the death penalty for all crimes; <LI type=disc>10 countries have abolished the death penalty for all but exceptional crimes such as wartime crimes;
[*]29 countries can be considered abolitionist in practice: they retain the death penalty in law but have not carried out any executions for the past 10 years or more and are believed to have a policy or established practice of not carrying out executions,
also

[FONT=Arial Black, B Helvetica Bold]Signatories of the Strasbourg Declaration[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
MICHEL TAUBE Chairman of Together Against the Death Penalty Organization (ECPM)
DENYS ROBILIARD Chairman of the French section of Amnesty International
SIDIKI KABA Chairman of the International Federation of Human Rights Leagues
AHMED OTHMANI Chairman of Penal Reform International
STEVEN HAWKINS Chairman of the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty United States
KOICHI KIKUTA Professor of Law, University of Japan
MARIO MARAZZITI Spokesperson of the Sant Egidio Community Italy
SERGIO D’ELIA Executive Director of Hands off Caïn Italy
FRANCIS TEITGEN Chairman of the Paris Bar Association France
MICHEL TUBIANA Chairman of the French Human Rights League France
SYLVIE BUCKARI DE PONTUAL Vice-Chairman of the French section and the International Federation of the Association Against Torture and capital punishment
RENEE LE MIGNOT Member of the M.R.A.P. organization France
MIREILLE MENDES-FRANCE Member of the International Democratic Lawyers AssociationFrance
DENNIS DAVIS Judge, High Court of Cape Town South Africa
BELINDA VAN HEERDEN Judge, High Court of Cape Town South Africa
JEREMY SARKIN Professor of Law, University of the Western Cape South Africa
HAFEZ ABU SE’ADA Secretary General of the Egyptian Human Right Organization Egypt
WILIAM KERFOOT Attorney, Legal Ressources Centre in Cape Town South Africa
ALIOUNE TINE Executive Director of the R.A.D.D.H. organization Senegal
ALICE MOGWE Director, of DITSHWANELO- the Centre for Human Rights Botswana
JUAN PABLO DE LEON Professor of University, president of " Ciudadanos contra la pena de muerte " Puerto Rico
RON PASCHKE Advocate, Cape Bar South Africa
JODY KOLLAPEN Lawyer, Member of the South African Human Right Commission South Africa
SAM JORDAN Spokeperson, International concerned family for friends of Mumia Abu-Jamal United States
LIVINGSTONE SEWANYANA Executive Director of the Foundation for Human Rights Uganda
NICOLAS TIANGAYE President of the Central African Republic Human Right League Central African Republic[/FONT]

the_new_mr

Sorry Steve. Just because a majority have a certain opinion doesn't make it right.

This is a pretty extreme analogy but say I was to put you in a room with a whole load of lads from the KKK and you held a vote on whether or not you should kill the black guy next door, do you think your opinion would be any less right just because you're in the minority?

Anyway, this thread certainly isn't for debating whether or not the death penalty is right or wrong. I recall seeing another thread about that somewhere else on boards.

fly_agaric

Hobbes wrote:

bull****

You don't say!

the_new_mr wrote:

It succeeds in other countries. Saudi Arabia, with all it's problems, is one country where it is carried out well.

Well, the Liberal Bleeding Hearts (like Amnesty, Human Rights Watch etc) would disagree with you but whatdotheyknow since a)they are not muslims and b) are gay perverts who generally don't like killing evil-doers. And we all know exactly who those evil-doers deserving of execution by the state are!

I'm sure that Saudi Arabia's Death Penalty system is much better than that of the United States of America (boo, hiss!). Public beheadings are way way cooler than lethal injections in a little room!
If only we could get some compare and contrasts from the late patrons of both systems!

the_new_mr

fly_agaric gets a 1 week ban for trolling.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

wtf for?

disagreeing with you?

well... that's some fantastic grasp of the meaning of the word 'trolling' you've got there.

or is it bull****... it's so hard to tell

InFront

Mordeth feel free to say something about the topic at hand, but please do not discuss moderating in this thread.