How do you react to fundamentalists?

the_new_mr

For bringing the level of conversation down a few levels. The whole post was bad... but this line was enough:

fky_agaric wrote:

If only we could get some compare and contrasts from the late patrons of both systems!

Troll definition

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

it's fundamentalist forum modding, it's entirely relevant to the topic being discussed.

the_new_mr

I'm issuing you a warning mordeth as I take it you mean fundamentalist in the negative and inaccurate sense as previously discussed in this thread.

philologos

the_new_mr wrote:

It succeeds in other countries. Saudi Arabia, with all it's problems, is one country where it is carried out well. I think people are put through 7 separate court trials or something like that before anyone can be sentenced with the death penalty there. At least they got something right. As Wes pointed out earlier. The Saudi government are hypocrites.

Infact it's Saudi imams who are suspected of inciting extremism. There was a report on Channel 4 in relation to the Green Hill Mosque in Birmingham, regarding an American imam, who claimed that the kufaar can't be trusted etc, Jews and Christians are scum. This mosque had video conferences with extreme imams in Saudi Arabia (or so they say). I know this isn't the belief of moderate Muslims, but I'm just wondering do you share the same views on Unbelievers (kufaar) or could you define what the relationship between Muslims and us as kufaar is? Just out of interest.

the_new_mr

I'll gladly do it although I don't think I can be the considered the official spokesperson for the world Muslim population I'll do my best though.

First of all, I'd like to comment on the term "moderate Muslim". It implies a Muslim who isn't taking their religion seriously or who wants to pick and choose and is somewhat of a misnomer (like the term fundamentalist). I know what you're trying to say and I'm not trying to be pedantic.

Anyway...

No Imam should be inciting hatred. It's absolutely unacceptable.

Some people when attacking Islam tend to highlight verses of the Quran such as the following:

Al-Ma'ida:51
"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk."

What people fail to realise is that understanding the reason for revelation is ex extremely important to knowing how to apply these verses. The verse above was at a time when Muslims were at war with Christians and Jews.

But God is very clear in the Quran of who should be fought against and who should not and very clearly highlights that having a good relationship with people of the book is absolutely fine.

Al-Mumtahina:8-9
"Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.; Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them--(All) such are wrong doers."

It should be noted here that the word used for kindness in Al-Mumtahina:8 is the Arabic word birr which isn't just any sort of kindness. It's an extremely high level of kindness. The word birr is used when describing how to deal with your parents (birr al waladayn) which I think best highlights the kind of kindness we're taking about here.

With reference to the specific idea that non-believers (kufar) cannot be trusted, I think the following verse is very applicable.

Al-Imran:75
"And among the followers of earlier revelation there is many a one who, if thou entrust him with a treasure, will [faithfully] restore it to thee; and there is among them many a one who, if thou entrust him with a tiny gold coin, will not restore it to thee unless thou keep standing over him - which is an outcome of their assertion, "No blame can attach to us [for anything that we may do] with regard to these unlettered folk": and [so] they tell a lie about God, being well aware [that it is a lie]." "

So, it's very clear that there are those that can be trusted and those that are not. It's down to the individual.

So the relationship between Muslims and Jews and Christians is supposed to be that of kindness and good will without question.

I think the following article from islamonline.net is very beneficial.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1140333520303

Hope that answers your question Jakkass.

InFront

:eek: I thought you were being harsh then I realized that's just his username

I've nothing to add really except one small thing. In case someone was wondering, kufr/ kaffir isn't a bad, word. Many people apparently think it is or think that it is designed to insult (they presume it means infidel and everything that infers to them).
Maybe this is because of how it has been used badly by certain media (and Muslims in some cases). Yes in many countries, it had racist overtones. But this is the racist's interpretation just the same as some other racists use the word "Jew" as an insult. It is not racist in itself or meant to incite hatred. In the Qur'an it just means non-Muslim.

philologos

the_new_mr wrote:

I'll gladly do it although I don't think I can be the considered the official spokesperson for the world Muslim population I'll do my best though.

First of all, I'd like to comment on the term "moderate Muslim". It implies a Muslim who isn't taking their religion seriously or who wants to pick and choose and is somewhat of a misnomer (like the term fundamentalist). I know what you're trying to say and I'm not trying to be pedantic.

Sorry, I put it the best I could have . Thanks for clarifying it all. I just got shocked really when I saw that documentary. I know from reading parts of the Qu'ran in English that the relationship between Christians, Jews and Muslims was supposed to be a good one. But I was wondering where the argument of anti-kuffar came from. I hope to read more of the Qu'ran.

Scofflaw

InFront wrote:

:eek: I thought you were being harsh then I realized that's just his username

I've nothing to add really except one small thing. In case someone was wondering, kufr/ kaffir isn't a bad, word. Many people apparently think it is or think that it is designed to insult (they presume it means infidel and everything that infers to them).
Maybe this is because of how it has been used badly by certain media (and Muslims in some cases). Yes in many countries, it had racist overtones. But this is the racist's interpretation just the same as some other racists use the word "Jew" as an insult. It is not racist in itself or meant to incite hatred. In the Qur'an it just means non-Muslim.

"Gentile" would be an equivalent term.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Wibbs

InFront wrote:

In the Qur'an it just means non-Muslim.

Not quite. It means unbeliever, but more than that it means denier of the truth. It's more a proactive unbelief. Someone living in a jungle in the middle of nowhere who has never heard of Allah is technically not a Kuffar. A kufr is a person who has heard the message of Islam and chooses to not believe/covers up the truth. It's quite a pejorative term and is used as such in many places in the texts.

DinoBot

InFront wrote:

:

In case someone was wondering, kufr/ kaffir isn't a bad, word. Many people apparently think it is or think that it is designed to insult (they presume it means infidel and everything that infers to them).
.

I STRONGLY disagree with you. The word Kafir IS an insult and IS used as an insult by muslims. You might tell me the proper use of the term for "people-of-the-book" is not Kafir but in REALITY kafir is used to label ALL non muslims.

Please see link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufr


Kufr is an Arabic word meaning an unbeliever, a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth. In cultural terms, it is a derogatory term[1] used to describe an unbeliever, non-Muslims, a Muslim of a differing sect.


The word is used way too much and too freely, but it is used.

Hobbes

tbh it sounds like gook or gaijin. Both are used as derogatory terms but aren't actually.

DinoBot

Hobbes wrote:

tbh it sounds like gook or gaijin. Both are used as derogatory terms but aren't actually.

I dont understand, you said both are used as derogatory terms but aren't ??


Answer me this, would you like to be called a gook ? It sounds extreamly derogatory to me ! I dont know any other use for the words gook or gaijin, in what non-derogatory context can these words be used ?

InFront

Presumably the same way Pakistanis use the P word?

Wibbs wrote:

Not quite. It means unbeliever, but more than that it means denier of the truth. It's more a proactive unbelief

Proactive unbelief, yes but unbeliever is still not exactly correct, because Jews and Christians are not unbelievers exactly, yet they are kaffir. An unbeliever might be something like a Hindu. 'Non Muslim who denies the clear truth' would be a bit more accurate I think.

I STRONGLY disagree with you. The word Kafir IS an insult and IS used as an insult by muslims. You might tell me the proper use of the term for "people-of-the-book" is not Kafir but in REALITY kafir is used to label ALL non muslims.

I did say it was used as an insult, but this is not the religious use it is the racist use. Again I would give the example of "Jew" being used as an insult, or even "Irish", actually when you think about it. There are lots of examples, as we've seen. Lets face it, there has to be a religious term for non-Muslim.

DinoBot

InFront wrote:

I did say it was used as an insult, but this is not the religious use it is the racist use. Again I would give the example of "Jew" being used as an insult, or even "Irish", actually when you think about it. There are lots of examples, as we've seen.

So when you call someone a Kafur in a "religious" context its not an insult but in all other cases its a racist insult.

Great ! so either I know alot of very religious people or very racist people :rolleyes:

InFront

Well yes because the term is being brought from the Qur'an, and as has been pointed out in this thread, the relationship with the Jews and Christians (who are among the kufaar) is undoubtedly intended to be one of kindness.
Maybe you should point this out to anybody you hear using the term in a derogatory or racist fashion.

The term has been used by Allah and is featured in the Qur'an. So it is very important that it is used correctly and that people should point out what it actually means instead of the popular misunderstanding that surrounds it. That is a cultural phenomenon, and it is better that it is not confused with the Islamic use of the word.

Sangre

Kafur is an insult when its intended to be an insult. As InFront has pointed out numerous times, I could call you a 'dirty Jew' or I could tell you not to 'act so Jewish' clearly intending to be offensive. I'm obviously trying to offensive and no doubt a Jewish person would find it as such (even though Jew isn't an insult).

However the same Jew could read a census form asking if he is 'Jewish' and he wouldn't be insulted. Why? Because the term isn't designed to be an insult, it can just be used that way sometimes.

This is obviously different to words that are only offsenive e.g nígger, gook, uncle tom or whatever.

Hobbes

DinoBot wrote:

I dont understand, you said both are used as derogatory terms but aren't ??

Gook in Korean means country. So for example koreans would say "mee gook" to Americans troops. The Americans thinking it meant "I am a gook". Mee gook is actually a very polite way to say American (Beautiful Country), but Americans take gook to be an offensive term to Korean/Vietnamese (who also have a similar word).

Gaijin has many meanings from outsider, to tourist to foreign devil depending on the context.

Answer me this, would you like to be called a gook ?

Because I know what the word means no I wouldn't unless it was used in an offensive way.