Robbie as captain

The Volt

Has to be changed doesn't it?

His own game has suffered as a result of trying to do too much, and we need him at his best.

godtabh

Voltwad wrote:

Has to be changed doesn't it?

His own game has suffered as a result of trying to do too much, and we need him at his best.

His game hasnt changed when he is captain of Spurs.

PHB

Actually he became much better as captain of Spurs.
Theres no point in discussing this without saying who would take over?
Anwser, Given or Dunne?
Either of them any better? Not really. The issue is there is no real leadership on the pitch at all, whether or not their are captains there or not.

Guy:Incognito

Oops I jumped in too quick. Saw the title and assumed the question would be "should he be captain" and voted no. Should have been ayes vote for the proper question..

Zebra3

Keane isn't one of those give all and keep playing til the end type of player that inspires others. He's more likely to whinge and moan and throw his arms up in the air when losing and that doesn't make for a good captain.

Many Shels fans would say it's a family trait......

Savman

Robbie Keane is a class act, you don't score some of them kinda goals for Spurs being an average player. I don't understand why people have started asking questions of the man, he's always given his all for club & country and you might say he's a model pro.
Good article in The Mail today about Robbie, reminding us of the days we celebrated his goal against Germany in World Cup '02 and how some sections of fans have turned on him. Do not blame our better players for the state of affairs, keep those gripes for Stan and the Merrion Square clan.

cson

Savman wrote:

Robbie Keane is a class act, you don't score some of them kinda goals for Spurs being an average player. I don't understand why people have started asking questions of the man, he's always given his all for club & country and you might say he's a model pro.
Good article in The Mail today about Robbie, reminding us of the days we celebrated his goal against Germany in World Cup '02 and how some sections of fans have turned on him. Do not blame our better players for the state of affairs, keep those gripes for Stan and the Merrion Square clan.

See the chances he missed on Sat? Or every other game he plays for Ireland for that matter. Aside from the habitual moaning and whinging tell me, what does he contribute?

Andrew 83

Zebra3 wrote:

Keane isn't one of those give all and keep playing til the end type of player that inspires others. He's more likely to whinge and moan and throw his arms up in the air when losing and that doesn't make for a good captain.

I actually think that although he whinges a lot (and should cut it out), he always does give his all and keeps going to the end - he's like that for Spurs too and always seems to keep trying when things are going badly.

I personally thought Dunne should be made captain but now Keane is I'd keep him with it. It would be a massive knock to him to strip him of it when he hasn't personally been the problem - smacks of scapegoating.

PHB

what does he contribute?

Could you tell me who set up the goal for Stevie Ireland?

cson

PHB wrote:

Could you tell me who set up the goal for Stevie Ireland?

Mr Keane himself. That aside......

Andrew 83

PHB wrote:

Could you tell me who set up the goal for Stevie Ireland?

Also played Duff in with a great pass about 5 mins earlier.

PHB

That aside?

Normally getting an assist is considered a pretty good performance from a player.

Savman

cson wrote:

See the chances he missed on Sat? Or every other game he plays for Ireland for that matter. Aside from the habitual moaning and whinging tell me, what does he contribute?

A lot, apparently. Himself and Duffer were at the source of everything Ireland did creatively. And what "chances" do you refer to? He had one good chance that I remember and it was a penalty shout (imo it was a super tackle from Welsh defender).
I spose you think Giggs shud be stripped of his captaincy cos he was quiet on Saturday too? I've seen Robbie Keane for Spurs and he's class, so logic dictates that the problem doesnt lie with him.

cournioni

A forward that can't hit the target, a forward who puts his head down and runs into opposition players, giving away the ball, greedy, he isn't a motivator... Yeah, great captain... :rolleyes:

It should be Given, without a doubt.

Savman

PORNAPSTER wrote:

A forward that can't hit the target

wikipedia wrote:

Wolverhampton Wanderers - 88apps (29 goals)
Coventry City 34apps (12 goals)
Internazionale - 6apps (2 goals)
Leeds United - 46apps (13 goals)
Spurs - 154apps (58 goals)
Republic of Ireland 72apps (29 goals)

a forward who puts his head down and runs into opposition players,

I've never seen him running into players, thought it was quite obvious he's not that type of player. In any case, you could say the same about Ronaldo last season.

giving away the ball,

And he's the only footballer who does?

greedy

Er, he's a striker ffs. Watch him playing with any good players around him, he sets up as much as he scores.

he isn't a motivator...

Maybe not, but talking down his overall ability is stoopid.

It should be Given, without a doubt.

The issue of whether GK's make suitable captain's is another debate, but I, for one, certainly don't think so. They're just too far away from the action most of the time.

Get off Keane's case, jaysis.

cson

What the hell has Ronaldo got to do with this?

Generally forwards don't make good captains (Henry at Arsenal, Raul at Madrid) and I think it is quite obvious that Keane is no exception to this.

This isn't about his performance on Saturday or throughout his career, it is about his suitability as captain of Ireland. In my opinion he contributes very little as regards captaincy and a player such as Shay Given (despite being a GK) is more deserving of the captaincy. Even Richard Dunne (Captain at Man City) would make a better captain.

Thats my opinion anyway, take it or leave it.

Savman

cson wrote:

Generally forwards don't make good captains (Henry at Arsenal, Raul at Madrid) and I think it is quite obvious that Keane is no exception to this.

I'll agree with you there, in principle. Shearer being one of the few exceptions.

This isn't about his performance on Saturday or throughout his career, it is about his suitability as captain of Ireland. In my opinion he contributes very little as regards captaincy and a player such as Shay Given (despite being a GK) is more deserving of the captaincy. Even Richard Dunne (Captain at Man City) would make a better captain.

I don't think either Given or Dunne would be a major improvement and I'd still see it as scapegoating. The real issue with taking the armband off him is that it could prove detrimental to the players' confidence unless he wants rid of it. It's not like he has done anything wrong so as far as I'm concerned we should leave him be for the time being. I'm also sure he will prove people wrong on this.

Thats my opinion anyway, take it or leave it.

Er, ok. Is there an option C?

bohsman

Changing captain at the moment would be rearanging the deckchairs on the titanic.

BaZmO*

bohsman wrote:

Changing captain at the moment would be rearanging the deckchairs on the titanic.

I love that quote and never has it been more aptly applied.

Bateman

Savman wrote:

I've seen Robbie Keane for Spurs and he's class, so logic dictates that the problem doesnt lie with him.

Logic dictates that he is unable to carry that form into the international arena. Are you seriously suggesting that the manager, or the FAI are 100% to blame for this. Are you seriously suggesting that maybe, if he played the whistle instead of giving lip to the referee, that his overall end product would not improve?

Savman

Bateman wrote:

Logic dictates that he is unable to carry that form into the international arena. Are you seriously suggesting that the manager, or the FAI are 100% to blame for this. Are you seriously suggesting that maybe, if he played the whistle instead of giving lip to the referee, that his overall end product would not improve?

I just don't appreciate singling out one player when the entire team is underperforming. It's easy to just to pick out Keane, esp as he's also the captain but on Saturday there were 9 or 10 other passengers in that team. In a team that contains Carsley and Kilbane (who I'd consider average players), it's amazing how much stick a player like Keane gets. Some fans we are.

I could understand if it was Duffer getting criticized because he's been off form for oh about 2 years now. But Keane has been a class above anytime I've seen him in the Premiership and I don't believe he doesn't make the effort for Ireland so being vindicated by his own bloody fans is not just unfair, it's ridiculous.

A little perspective here wouldn't go astray, it seems a lot of fans just want blood.

Spider_Baby!

Its easier to just say Robbie Keane plays better in the Spurs line-up than the Ireland one. Maybe its the tactics, or how Jol prepares him mentally, but i dont think its that he doesnt give a f*ck.

If its that he doesnt care, hes a professional football player, and if he didnt like playing for Ireland im sure he would've given up to focus on his Tottenham career.

Xavi6

I don't think changing the captaincy now is a good idea. Despite how average I think Robbie Keane is and despite how good awful he can play he is still our best striker (which says it all really) and stripping him of the title will kill his confidence.

The main point is that he should never have gotten the armband in the first place. Apparently it was offered to Given but he turned it down so Keane was next in line. Personally I would have given it to Richard Dunne based on his performances and how he leads by example week in week out at club level (where he is already a captain). Also I don't agree with strikers as captain.

cournioni

Savman wrote:

I've never seen him running into players, thought it was quite obvious he's not that type of player. In any case, you could say the same about Ronaldo last season.

Ronaldo isn't a captain.

And he's the only footballer who does?

No, but he is the captain. Captains don't give away the ball that easily. Look at the likes of Cannavaro, Vieira and Roy Keane for your prime examples of not giving the ball away with a blind pass.

Er, he's a striker ffs. Watch him playing with any good players around him, he sets up as much as he scores.

Greed is not something you should associate with a captain. Especially not an international captain.

Maybe not, but talking down his overall ability is stoopid.

I never said he didn't have ability, otherwise he wouldn't be an international footballer. It's his use of his ability that annoys me.

The issue of whether GK's make suitable captain's is another debate, but I, for one, certainly don't think so. They're just too far away from the action most of the time.

The way we are playing at the moment, I would say Given is far more likely to be closer to the action than Keane will be.

Get off Keane's case, jaysis.

I will when he puts in some proper, no bullshít performances. Until then I'll keep on his case.

LuckyLloyd

You could argue that Dunne would be a better candidate. But it's close. The problem is that no - one really stands out at the moment with a big "CAPTAIN" sign over their head.

_blank_

Paul McShane.

I was told a story about Staunton's half time team talk during the Czech game.

The players came off at half time at 0-0, and were all happy smiles in the dressing room. Apparently McShane then tore into them, a la Roy, telling them to cop on that they should be winning the match.

Just as he finished his rant, Staunton arrived in to give the team talk.

'You all heard him' - and then he walked out.

besty

If that's true, it would be fairly ballsy from McShane.

The_B_Man

Doesnt a captain jsut excahnge the thing at the start and shake hands? jsut coz someone is a captain does not mean all the responsibility for motivation is shouldered on them! wouldnt make a difference if there was no captain, but im assumin theres a rule that states that someone on the pitch must be a captain.

btw, Roy was not the captain for them last few games but he didnt stop playign exactly the same as before hand. If dunne or Given are better motivators, then givin them a band on their arm wont change a thing! they'll still be great motivators!

_blank_

The_B_Man wrote:

If dunne or Given are better motivators, then givin them a band on their arm wont change a thing! they'll still be great motivators!

This is true.

The whole team, form Staunton and Bobby down to the players with small number of caps, doesn't seem to have any leadership.

BaZmO*

seansouth wrote:

Paul McShane.

I was told a story about Staunton's half time team talk during the Czech game.

The players came off at half time at 0-0, and were all happy smiles in the dressing room. Apparently McShane then tore into them, a la Roy, telling them to cop on that they should be winning the match.

Just as he finished his rant, Staunton arrived in to give the team talk.

'You all heard him' - and then he walked out.

I dunno how true that is but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. When he was interviewed straight after the game he seemed totally dejected at not actually winning the game.

Kingp35

The_B_Man wrote:

btw, Roy was not the captain for them last few games but he didnt stop playign exactly the same as before hand. If dunne or Given are better motivators, then givin them a band on their arm wont change a thing! they'll still be great motivators!

Best point made on this thread.

By the way Savman, what Keane does in a Spurs shirt is totally irrelevant, what Keane does in an Ireland shirt is what counts and he has been pretty useless for a while now although he did ok on Saturday.

redspider

There is too much focus at times over the role of a Captain. This is a remnant from a different era when football was invented and school's had prefects and the like. Think of Old Etonians and you will get the picture. Also, many teams didnt have managers/coaches. The Captain was the leader on and off the field. Sport, and especially football, has become a lot bigger than that and is a lot different.

I've managed/coached a few different teams down through the years and in a couple of different sports. One thing that I always wanted from my players was there to be 11 leaders out there on the pitch - not just one. The Captain did the formalities, and if I was lucky was able to communicate changes in tactics, etc, during the game. But no way would I want only one leader. I want 11, and all to know what each and everyone of them should be doing at any one time. Helping each other, and NOT berating each other. Pointing things out, yes, shouting at times yes, slating someone for not covering, yes, but at the same time keeping unity of purpose in the camp and positivity, harmony and not divisiveness.

Sometimes the role of a Captain can get to a players head. They can try too hard. But in football and in other sports, you shouldnt expect the Captain to play any better than when he was playing before he was Captain. Each player should play with their best intentsity, dedication and skills and team work at all times. If the heads go down, everybody is responsible for getting the hads back up.

I would normally give the captaincy to a senior player, and one either in central defence or central midfield. As that is where they can do some calling and 'allowed' shouting for set-pieces, corners, etc, and keeping players in their correct positions.

But team spirit is a key thing. Thats why it's great to see teams like Celtic do their huddles. The Irish Rugby have those as well, as do many GAA teams, but did Ireland form one the other day? I didnt see it anyway.

As for Robbie and captaincy, it doesnt matter that much. As long as Dunne and McShane do their bit of shouting, and Carsley when he is in the centre, then that's fine and enough. Duff, although a quiet lad will do his bit, as will Given. O'Shea, hardly, he's just too nice a guy and too lazy. Kilbane, shouldnt be on the pitch imo.

There is too much focus on the role, as it is not a cause to our current situation. 'Fixing' it wont help matters. Team spirit on the other hand can take us a long way.

Redspider

Nunu

Ye, they formed a huddle on Sat.

To be honest I think thats just a token thing most teams do nowadays - it's sort of lost it's effect.
I know playing myself on Sundays every team we play does it before kick off.
Incidentally we don't, because of my original point above. In our legue it sets us out from the crowd:D

Savman

Some fair points there redspider, would have to agree about most things.
A leader on the pitch is a leader on the pitch, with or without the armband (e.g. Roy Keane). I think the issue here is that maybe it wasn't wise to give Robbie Keane the armband in the first place, but looking at the teamsheet if Given did turn it down there's noone else really (Dunne I wouldnt be sure of).

The poll was asking if we should change the captaincy, I said No. It'd be like patching up a burst dam with some "gyaffa" tape.
Or as someone mentioned the Titanic, that's certainly what it feels like. I just cant justify making Keane the scapegoat for what's been a depressing period. He's not playing Wednesday so maybe we'll see how they fare without him.

Steve Staunton - The only man to ever silence 74,000 Irish fans?