BSG - S3 E20 - Crossroads Part 2 **Spoilers**

Johnny Storm

Hmmmmm.......


........ I wonder what colour will Lee's flying motorbike be?


Things I didn't like;-

Tigh's a Cylon
Starduck still around
Arrival at Earth immanent
Bob frackin' Dylan?
Writer's completely out of ideas??
Shark well-and-truly jumped???
2008????
:eek:

CiDeRmAn

Well the show is finished at the end of the 4th season so I guess they have to start rapping things up, tie up a few loose ends.
I know that the wait til 2008 seems immense but at least we should have the Pegasus mini series to look forward to between now and then, that should fill the hole nicely, as the actress said to the bishop.
Starbuck turning up will take some explaining given we all saw her craft explode, downloaded perhaps? Although there didn't seem to be any ressurection ships in the vicinty, I don't know.

Good thing its all only pretend, right?

quad_red

Wtf?

Certainly, the end had my full attention. Yeah, we knew it was the blond angry lesbian returning when we saw the unidentified dradas contact. And yes, we already had guessed who was gonna be in the cylon 'unveiling' but...

Tyrol and Tigh!??! Two of the most human characters in the goddamn thing!?!?

What the hell? I don't know whether it's genius or complete aimlessness.

Johnny Storm

quad_red wrote:

I don't know whether it's genius or complete aimlessness.

Yep, I agree. Unfortunately it reminds me of the 100% aimless ending of season 3 (?) of Enterprise where they return to earth and are attacked by WWII Nazi Messerschmidt's over Washington and etc etc

The return of Starduck, the Bob Dylan song, Tigh being a Cylon - it all seems a bit desperate. I hope I'm wrong.

quad_red

having them all as cylons (Tigh, Tyrol etc.)

Cos if she is, Galactica (a rust bucket in the process of being decommissioned had no less than five cylon agents aboard. If every ship in the flight had that many there'd be hundreds of them and they would surely overlap.

1. Sharon
2. Tyrol
3. Tight
4. Starbuck
5. Aaron Doral

If Starbuck is a cylon, then why the hell would they take her ovary?

Bah - I give up!

Stark

Starbuck wrote:

If Starbuck is a cylon, then why the hell would they take her ovary?

They wouldn't have known she was a cylon. The other 7 cylons weren't aware of the identities of the final five.

quad_red wrote:

Tyrol and Tigh!??! Two of the most human characters in the goddamn thing!?!?

What the hell? I don't know whether it's genius or complete aimlessness.

I'm going to have to assume, that despite the incompetent writing of late, that they can't have missed the blaringly obvious fact that Tighe was around since before the first Cylon war and well known to many including Adama himself. So they must have good reason for having Tighe being a cylon.

cregser

I think something like this must have been part of the plan from the start. The writers had to know (mostly) who the 12 where.

Some peeps are saying they're sad to see the writers showing their cards as it signifies the winding down of the series. But as a viewer of Lost I'm glad to see a show finally get to the promised land and actually reveal stuff. As crazy as the ending was, it made it interesting

p.s. i think Lee is imagining Starbuck and Baltar has to still be involved.

quad_red

cregser wrote:

p.s. i think Lee is imagining Starbuck and Baltar has to still be involved.

Well, that would fit. There were other vipers to Lee's left but only he reacted to the unidentified contact (ala. Kara's bogie in the episode where she 'died').

Is she an imaginary player in the same way that Baltar/Six have Six/Baltar
in their heads?

Vokes

And if thats the case, what should we should call her now - HeadBuck, ChipBuck, etc ? :eek:

quad_red

SofaKing wrote:

And if thats the case, what should we should call her now - HeadBuck, ChipBuck, etc ? :eek:

She's a Head*uck allright

Overheal

quad_red wrote:

Wtf?

Tyrol and Tigh!??! Two of the most human characters in the goddamn thing!?!?

What the hell? I don't know whether it's genius or complete aimlessness.

I'm hoping genious: think of the Irony.......

All along the watchtower = brilliant. Really marks a turning point in the series. The 5th act is about to commence....in a year

MisterAnarchy

quad_red wrote:

Cos if she is, Galactica (a rust bucket in the process of being decommissioned had no less than five cylon agents aboard. If every ship in the flight had that many there'd be hundreds of them and they would surely overlap.

Its hugely improbable allright and implausible.

cregser wrote:

I think something like this must have been part of the plan from the start. The writers had to know (mostly) who the 12 were.

Ron Moore said in an interview that he only decided on the identities of the final five in the last few episodes and then checked back over the previous episodes to check for inconsistencies in his new idea.
Making such fundamental plots up as you go along is silly.
I think the whole final five ,higher being plot has damaged the show.
The cylons are just machines created by man who evolved.Full stop.
None of this mythical mumbo jumbo please of it all happening before and destinies stuff please.
Basic premise should be as in season 1
Humans fleeing evil Cylons in search of the lost 13th colony.

c0y0te

Unfortunately it's a case of "Lost" at this point...

Lost its way

Lost its edge

Lost its credibility

They should have just stuck to the knitting with this season, but instead it went all over the place.

Any time now someone is going to wake up in a shower and realise last season was just a dream:p

Overheal

I just realised this seconds ago o.0

listen to All Along The Watchtower in BSG....and then go listen to Papercut, by Linkin Park (Hybrid Theory). The guitar keys are are near identical.

Talisman

The revelations on the identities of the four cylons:

It would be easy to concentrate on the bad: flaws in choosing those characters to be cylons so I'm not going to, instead I'll focus on the good: coincidences in the story arcs.

Tyrol suspected himself of being a Cylon. Remember when he went to see Cavil, he was told something like "You're not a Cylon because I haven't seen you at any of the meetings". Cally is going to be suicidal when she discovers she has shacked up with a cylon and her son is a half cylon.

The four have played a significant role in helping the survivors. Anders led the resistance on Caprica. Tori and Tigh attempted to steal the election for Roslin and would have got away with it too but for that pesky Gaeta. Had Roslin won the election, there would not have been a settlement on the recently discovered planet. On New Caprica, Tyrol, Tigh and Anders ran the resistance, while Tori was responsible for Hera. Tigh, Anders and Tyrol ran the death squad on Galactica - they're like anti-cylons.

Obviously the sleepers were being good humans, demonstrating exceptional character under extraordinary circumstances. If this was part of their programming it would explain why the other seven don't speak of them - the final five would seem to strive to be more human than the humans themselves a bit like replicants in Blade Runner.

The replicants that knew they were replicants (i.e. different from humans) were flawed (psychotic) while those that didn't realise became more human than the humans. There would appear to be parallels in BSG.

What would be really cool is if some episode, Saul Tigh opens the door of his quarters and finds a piece of origami shaped like a unicorn just outside. For those that don't get the reference watch Blade Runner (Director's Cut).

The black out:
I must watch the scene again but did the power get restored immediately after the four admitted to themselves that they were cylons?

Haven't quite decided what I think of the return of Starbuck: At the moment I'm leaning towards it being related to the ships of light/resurrection story line from the original series.

The final cylon:
Leboen said that Adama is a cylon, he didn't specify which Adama though. If it's Bill or Lee then they haven't been triggered yet. Most likely we're not going to discover who it is until the finale of the series. But Bill was doing that projecting thingy with his dead wife. What would be really mind bending is if was revealed as Zack being the cylon.

Overheal

Lee did the projecty thing when he was adrift in space after he disabled the Ressurection Ship's FTL drives. It could still be either: hell, it could be Zack or their Grandfather for all we know! It would also fit in with Leo's truth within lies MO

CiDeRmAn

Once again, how, if the toasters only rebeled a certain period ago, can Tigh be a cylon? not possible, unless they can do an old bodysnatch.
Unless the human type cylons aren't cylons themselves, but some other race.
They certainly seem as human as the humans, prone to the same kinda flaws only with the promise of resurrection after death and a good ability to work together, hmm, sounds like the mormons!

Talisman

CiDeRmAn wrote:

Once again, how, if the toasters only rebeled a certain period ago, can Tigh be a cylon? not possible, unless they can do an old bodysnatch.
Unless the human type cylons aren't cylons themselves, but some other race.
They certainly seem as human as the humans, prone to the same kinda flaws only with the promise of resurrection after death and a good ability to work together, hmm, sounds like the mormons!

I wouldn't get too hung up on Tigh and the Cylon war timeline as it will only wreck your head. No doubt there will be some mind bending in the next season to explain the origin of these cylons.

We know that the final five are different from the other seven skin jobs. Early on we were told that physiologically there is no detectable difference between the living cylons and humans. The doctor discovered that there was a chemical difference when they burned the tissue samples and this was the basis for the cylon detector.

The toasters didn't spawn the skin jobs, according to Six, God created them. Leboen also told Adama that God had created the cylons. I'm guessing that the God entity they referred to was around before the first Cylon war and hence so were the skin jobs. The Cylon God may be one of the Lords of Kobol.

duridian

Talisman wrote:

The toasters didn't spawn the skin jobs, according to Six, God created them. Leboen also told Adama that God had created the cylons. I'm guessing that the God entity they referred to was around before the first Cylon war and hence so were the skin jobs. The Cylon God may be one of the Lords of Kobol.

That's along fairly similar lines to what I've been thinking.
One thing which I think supports the idea of the skinjobs existing before the toasters is that it helps explain why the toasters turned against the humans. If skinjobs were mixed in with the humans at that point, then some could have easily been involved in designing the toasters, allowing them to program the toasters accordingly.

pete4130

I'll be honest. I thought the season was weak apart from a few episodes at the start. Alot of filler about "human" aspects of life including family issues, race/class segregation, workers rights and not a whole lot of toaster action. The last 2 episodes made the ending become very predictable and when it ended there was no surprise for me, only let down. What a way to pad out a series to get another season from it. I don't see the point in theorising about who is and who isn't a Cylon....no doubt there will be some off the wall explanation for this season ender thats keeps the series going but loses it credibility.
That saying, I'm loooking forward to season 4. Hopefully we'll some alot more toasters getting destroyed!!!!!!!!!

quad_red

Overheal wrote:

Lee did the projecty thing when he was adrift in space after he disabled the Ressurection Ship's FTL drives. It could still be either: hell, it could be Zack or their Grandfather for all we know! It would also fit in with Leo's truth within lies MO

I'd forgotten that! But isn't it sort of ridiculous that things seem to have gotten so arbitrary that we're grasping for anything in the is he/isn't it debate?

I thought the sequence when Lee was floating in the water and gradually sinking was a lovely way of relating the sense of isolation and gradual asphixia he was experience (and the far away shot from behind him of the ships duking it out is one of my favourite visual effects moments in the series).

But you're right - was it projecting?

Stark

Baltar "projects"
Adama "projects"
Lee "projects"

They can't all be cylons. You can't take every daydream that's realised for the viewer so literally. The only one that comes close to true "projection" is Baltar.

The whole projection concept was a dumb idea that they didn't seem to think through too much anyway.

duridian

The biggest obstacle to Admiral Adama being a cylon in my opinion, is that back in the mini series he spent a long period stuck on the Ragnor Anchorage fuel & munitions station in the company of Leoban Conoy. The station was built inside an ion storm which emits a form of radiation harmful to cylon physiology and the ill effects of extended exposure to this were obvious in Leoban, but not in Adama.
The strongest argument I can come up with against this point is that two of the four potentially revealed cylons in the season 3 finale were almost undoubtedly also inside the ion storm for the same duration. Col. Tigh on Galactica itself and I think Chief Tyrol was even down on the station itself helping with the transfer of fuel and weapons. Anders of course at this point was still among the resistance forces stuck back on Caprica. Tori may or may not have been inside the storm, I think she probably was with the Galactica's fleet from the start but she didn't really become a character you'd notice until season 2 when she took over from Billy.

CiDeRmAn

Is it possible that the four aren't Cylons at all, just deluded?
Were they all on New Caprica?
Could they have had some crap put in their heads?
Why Oh Why does the best show on TV have to pull this "Lost" crap on us and then leave us hanging for the guts of a year?
Its not right I tell ya!

MisterAnarchy

CiDeRmAn wrote:

Is it possible that the four aren't Cylons at all, just deluded?
Were they all on New Caprica?
Could they have had some crap put in their heads?

Its possible and would be more plausible but Ron Moore the creator of the show seems to have confirmed that they are cylons .
Whether he is telling fibs is questionable but I'd say its 90% confirmed that they are cylons.

quad_red

duridian wrote:

.... the ill effects of extended exposure to this were obvious in Leoban, but not in Adama.

But they do't make clear how long it takes for the effects to start showing themselves. We've no idea how long Leoban was on Ragnor before the Galactica arrived.

duridian wrote:

Col. Tigh on Galactica itself and I think Chief Tyrol was even down on the station itself helping with the transfer of fuel and weapons.

Same as the above. Anyway, Moore has apparently said that he only decided the identities of the final five this year. Hence, it doesn't really matter if there are inconsistencies, it could still be them!

Goodshape

Really enjoyed the episode but wish they had more time to spend on the revelations at the end. It was like a race to the finishline once the trial ended.

The revelations themselves (new cylons, Starbuck, Earth) were exciting and will give me plenty to think about between now and 2008 (!), but in terms of the BSG story-line they seem a bit lazy and unplanned (like most of this seasons second half).


2008 seems a long way away. Is this Pegasus mini-series out in the summer or something? First I've heard of it.

duridian

quad_red wrote:

But they do't make clear how long it takes for the effects to start showing themselves. We've no idea how long Leoban was on Ragnor before the Galactica arrived.



Same as the above. Anyway, Moore has apparently said that he only decided the identities of the final five this year. Hence, it doesn't really matter if there are inconsistencies, it could still be them!

Yeah, I know what you mean, but to me Leoban seemed perfectly healthy when they first encountered him, which still makes me think he had just arrived as well.

Nuttzz

maybe the cylons are the 13th tribe and earth is their homeworld? or is that too far out?

Vokes

^No, definitely not. Nice theory.

Hopefully, there will be some sort of twist on the 13th tribe right at the end of the show. Whether that be the rag-tag fugitive fleet as the 13th tribe or them being cylons or whatever.

Pepe LeFrits

I re-watched the end of this episode last night and then dreamt that Helo is the fifth Cylon. That'd make baby Nick the first of the new hybrid species, but then it would throw out everything we've been told about Cylon's being unable to reproduce amongst themselves. Would be a total head**** though

quad_red

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

I re-watched the end of this episode last night and then dreamt that Helo is the fifth Cylon. That'd make baby Nick the first of the new hybrid species, but then it would throw out everything we've been told about Cylon's being unable to reproduce amongst themselves. Would be a total head**** though

If Helo is a cylon then their kid isn't a hybrid - it's a purebreed cylon!

TerrorFirmer

Nuttzz wrote:

maybe the cylons are the 13th tribe and earth is their homeworld? or is that too far out?

I think it's good but unlikely. I've no doubt there'll be a twist but I think it'll be more in depth then that. From just watching that episode, I',m not remotely convinced that all four are Cylons - it just seems too obvious.

Also the first thought that entered my head was that Starbuck is a Cylon, and hence the ability as the 'most naturally gifted' fighter pilot, and of course, her 'surprise' return. What's behind that I don't know but seeing as it can't be Starbuck as we know her, I still hope it isn't a projection - I'm getting fed up of that aspect of the show. The biggest problem though is that seeing as they only decided the final five recently there's zero point going back analyzing old episodes.

Baltar is a great character but they let him down in this show, although I'm sure the ending of that episode is supposed to drum up a lot of interest into what direction he's heading, I found myself uncaring.

Hated the music at the end. Didn't fit in with the show at all, even if I seem to be in the minority in this opinion...

Overall a decent episode. It's been improving steadily since half way through but it's still far short of the previous seasons and now having to wait until 2008 is going to really kill off a lot of interest.

MarkR

I wonder is the music that these people are hearing is some kind of beacon from Earth, and that those four people are genetically predisposed to being able to hear it because of some mad gene therapy. Something like the ancients gene in stargate atlantis.

I'm not 100% convinced that those four are cylons, it felt a bit too contrived and clumsy.

Loved the music, felt different. The words were niggling at me as they were quoting the song, but I couldn't place it.

dan_y

I skipped page 4 and 5 cause I kept reading the same things and I just wanted to tell everyone some stuff I learned.

adama met tighe After the first cylon war. they had both been discharged from service since combat had ended and were eeking out an existence as freighter pilots. they met in a bar after they happened to work the same convoy once. later, adama used his then wife's connections in the military to get himself re-instated and as soon as he got to the rank of major he got tighe re-instated and took tighe with him when he gained command of galactica. so they have known each other for 40 years - the 40 years that tighe considers his real life, after adama saved him from self-destruction and dragged him back into a life of meaning.

and the phenomenon that "killed" kara was the same pretty hole she'd been drawing since she was a child. seems like she was destined to explode there. either that or there really was a cylon raider - and that's what exploded - and she flew straight down, and the phenomenon turned out to be a wormhole to earth.

also, (this is taken from wikipedia) according to a conversation Moore, the version heard in the episode is meant to have been recorded by a Colonial artist, not Bob Dylan himself. he thought it totally feasible that the lyrics could exist elsewhere in the universe. which, given the fact that this is science fiction - Is feasible.

everybody is so hard on shows like this, the ones that try to push boundries - there's such a drive to be more realistic, to try and make the impossible fit into a palettable (believable) scenario - that shows like Battlestar Galactia, who I think really are trying to do something totally different and really incredible, are being pigeon-holed into an impossible situation. it's not fair that everytime they go out on a limb the people who are supposed to be their fans accuse them of jumping-the-shark. I'm not even sure what that means but it sounds mean.

I really hope all this pressure doesn't see them churning out some Fox-friendly rehash of archtypical science-fiction finales with season 4(5?). maybe we could just suspend disbelief for a little longer?

I mean, they have given away that earth is there for the taking. now we know season 4 is gonna be a hell of a race. and it seems like the cylons have a head-start.

Haruspex

At least Ron Moore is honest enough to admit when he gets it wrong too. I don't think there's anyone on the board who wasn't disappointed with the quality of the latter half of season three. These extracts from a recent interview he gave do shed some light on it though... (Source)

Ronald D. Moore wrote:

As you get deeper into the series and start planning the next 10 and what's the season finale, it's the same process. You think you've laid out a path, but as you do it you find that there's this other more interesting path to get there. It causes chaos and you have to scramble to change things that you've already set in motion. But I find that it's just a more organic way to do it. It's more interesting, it's more fun, it allows the writers' creativity to come to the fore. It certainly has its downside, because sometimes you make big mistakes. Something that sounded really good at that moment, and you grabbed onto it, doesn't really pan out. Then you have a bad episode.
[...]
We'd developed a whole story line this season about a colony called the Sagitarions, and they were going to be an issue in the trial of [former president] Gaius Baltar. During the missing year on New Caprica, when Baltar was president, a massacre had taken place among the people from this one colony that had isolated themselves from the rest of the people. It was this long intricate back story built into a lot of the previous episodes of the show and it just didn't work. And I basically decided to throw it out while I was writing the finale, on the spur of the moment. We then had to go back into previous episodes and take that out, reshooting and re-editing. Some of those episodes suffered from that decision. It was important because it saved the finale and made it much stronger, but certain episodes in the second half of the third season are weaker as a result of that.

On another note he does reveal that the "extra episodes" prior to the commencement of season four will be set during

Cain-era Pegasus

. Haven't seen this mentioned or discussed here before?

Johnny Bitte

Frack me!! Just watching finale on Sky One. Brilliant

Klept0

Saw it just there, wow...

aidan_walsh

Hmm... Most of the other questions I have have already been addressed, so...

Why did Roslin flinch just before the power outage? Its like she was able to feel whatever caused it before it took out the power.

Also, regarding the 4, at least it gives me a clue as to one of the long standing niggling questions about the series - just who did leave that "There are only 12 models" note on Adama's desk way, way back when?

Also, "pull a comb through their hair once a week" - Roslin, you bitch

User45701

Igy wrote:

They're hoping we'll forget how much half of series 3 sucked, i'll hazard.


Not a bad episode though, even if they got a little Lost-like on us and introduced plot twists that not only don't make much sense, but ask far more questions than they're ever going to answer...

Huh?
What plot twist, the cylons? Baltars trail?
What aren’t they going to answer? Do u think that we will never see Gaius again do you think the 4 will never discuss what they are again? Are the cylons going to just jump away?
What do you mean?

DS wrote:

Pretty good finale I suppose, if not earth-shattering. Starbuck made her inevitably underwhelming return, as soon as she popped up on dradis it was obvious. They could have done the Starbuck thing without trying to pretend she died, that was just stupid.

The trial kept reminding me of the judge in Futurama... "I'm going to allow this"

When I see a judge in a sci-fi show I get reminded of the Futurama called "Where no fan has gone before"
Kiff: One beep for yes, Two beeps for know
Zap: You have been charged with travelling to the forbidden planet Omega 6 which is punishable by twelve concurrent death sentences, How do you plead?
Fry: *beep*...*beep*
Zap: Double yes! I will now carry out the sentence, Kiff my gun

steviec wrote:

Well I enjoyed the trial a lot, and the way they dumped Balthar afterwards too, but I can't say I thought the ending where everything went loopy was to my liking.

I have no idea where they're going with the newfound cylons, 'Hey we all heard the same music! We must be cylons! So what do we do now? Ummm, lets do nothing.'

Ok so Tigh's speech was great, but the whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. As for Starbuck, I look forward to the explanation for that one. It was an interesting return, I just generally didn't like those scenes though because I thought that music was completely out of place for the usual atmosphere of the show, and the final CG where they zoom on earth just seemed cheesy.

I'm probably being harsh here, I did enjoy most of the episode a lot, the ending was just a let down, especially with so long till the next episode. I don't mind a 'what happens next?' cliffhanger, but 'what the hell just happened?' is a much more annoying question to be left waiting on...

I can see where you are coming from with your last point but i disagree on the rest and they did nothing because Saul Tigh was right,

Music in BSG is very good so they tried something new they added words to the music some liked it some didn’t.
As for starbuck ill say the two theories I have
1. Starbuck is a cylon and the final 5 resurrect to earth when they die, explaining why the 7 have never seen them.
2. The cloud in maelstrom (the episode where starbuck died) was actually a wormhole leading somewhere close to Sol

sioda wrote:

Great Ep cant believe its all over till next year.

ditto on the music that version was brilliant

jury is still out with me whether the 4 are cylons or not. Have been thinking for a while that maybe the cylons missing are actually resitance cylons that the others have manged to keep submerged.

What has me confused is that we have Baltar and Caprica with the kid heading towards 6 light beams but then only 5 beings behind they and we only have 4 characters from galactica who heard the music. So is it the missing 5 or 6 cylons??

Em

Ok well no the 5 are not rebel cylons the other cylons have not kept them subjugated, the 7 cylons have never met or seen any of the 5 except for Deanna who was boxed.

Also if you remember in season to back on old Caprica the cylon story? Remember Deanna had an encounter with Anders? then before she was boxed when she looked at the faces she said "You, I had no idea"

The 5 beings you saw where the final 5 there are 12 models of cylons, 5 we don’t know but we are told 4 of them in this episode, we just have not decided to believe it or not.

That leaves 7 models of cylon we have seen, one of them has been boxed (put into cold storage) Leaving 6.

Sad Professor wrote:

Very very very disappointing imo. Ron Moore has also apparently confirmed that they are cylons, kinda like how he confirmed Starbuck was dead. He's so full of s**t!

And Moore still hasn't learned how plan out a season properly. He's doing the same thing he and other writers did back on DS9, shooting their load in the first 6 episodes and throwing together the rest of the season. I'm sure next year will be the same, the first 6 episodes should be good though.

Still, it had it's moments though—I loved Tigh's reaction when he found the other 3 at the end: "whoa!" lol

Tigh's speech at the end was better but he is fast becoming one of my favourite characters

Though I never noticed DS9 being good at the start of a season then ok for the rest I remember them being very well balanced all ok/good episodes with a few great ones thrown in but not even 1/2of the best episodes where at the start of seasons

8T8 wrote:

I had mixed feelings about the music it worked and didn't work at the same time & was quite a departure from the normal music.

There are two interviews about the end of season 3 (one, two) doing the rounds with Ron Moore & as this is a spoilers thread here is some of the more interesting points; (edit put in spoiler tags at request)

* Final five are definitely different to the other cylons – possible alternative faction ?
* Fifth member of five not revealed - but given the opera house scene with Sharon & Six very likely President Roslyn is the final one (that or Starbuck).
* Chief Tyrol and Cally’s baby is a second hybrid
* Katee Sackhoff (Starbuck) is signed for Season 4 so obviously we see her again in some form.
* How the characters that where the final 5 originated as Cylon’s will be explained in season 4 & their agenda.
* Roslin has cancer again as the prophecy was that of a dying leader bringing them to Earth so it is feasible she is going to die near the end.
* DVD’s of Season 3 in August and movie/mini-series featuring Admiral Cain from the Pegasus & their activities prior to meeting Galactica will be shown in the fall to fill the gap between season 4. Though Moore mentions the full cast will be involved in the mini-movie so it must deal with other time frames from the Pegasus as well.
* Season 4 is very likely the final season where everything will be wrapped up decision is still in the air at the moment, first 8 episodes of 22 are laid out & confirmed we are in the end zone of the series – though left open how long the end zone plays out.

A theory I’ve seen is if the basestars in the end scene are crewed by the final five faction, though that doesn’t make too much sense given they have the same hardware as the regular cylon’s. However weren’t the cylon’s being led away by the radioactive fuel ship from the previous episode as that’s how they where following them ?

Also what was with the women leading Baltar away ?

Anyway to me that was a great episode making up for some of the more recent weaker ones but Jan 2008 is such a long time away I’d say Season 4 will definitely be the end



'I think the whole Starbuck is dead business was just a means to try and keep the storyline a surprise as everybody knew it was going to happen and it was the worst kept secret thereby ruining one of the big shocks for the end of the season, in what shape she comes back in I don't know but I'm betting in Lee's head/spirit form for season 4. Also in the interviews he admits they screwed up the last quarter of season 3 with the Sagiterran sub plot & then proceeded to cut it out of the episodes only making them poorer in the process but paid off in a better final episode at least.'

Hmm that was a good post, almost as good as the episode itself.
Gave me lots to think about. Interesting idea about those ships being crewed by the final 5, but I do doubt it.

I didn’t know they cut a sagiterran sub plot from the episodes they did seem quite jumpy even though they were all still good episodes

The woman leading Baltar away was so he wouldn’t get lynched, he will be taken somewhere safe with his supporters

Peace wrote:

Tigh and Adama were mates way back when so has he always been a cylon? Was he replaced? Does this mean the human cylons have been around for 40years?

We don’t know he is a cylon, I want him to be though.

Also we don’t know what the deal is with cylon/humans because they made them real enough so one would assume that they do age, When Brother Cavil talked about eternity and still being around to savour the great miracle. One would assume that they age but can just download to a fresh body, what bothers me is the Age difference.

Old cylons and middle aged cylons.
They all have numbers could Tigh be no.2? or maybe even no1?

But if the 12 where created at the same time some of them must have been infants? Actually who remembers bogey? booster? blister? bobby? eh dammit i can’t remember the kid from the 1st few episodes, was he not originally supposed to be a cylon but everyone figured it out so he was just gone?

I’d love to know if Ron has a master plan all worked out everything so it makes sense

bmwman wrote:

The last two episodes didn't have the stupid start (ala 24) it just wastes time. Very good episode, but not for Battlestar, Matlock has some great court room scenes but we (I) don't watch that. Maybe if it was called Star Galactica (lack of Battle) it would be good ha ha. The final 4 (5) bit was good, probably best episode of since 5. I look forward to seeing Cain etc in the mean time ( if it's true).

You don’t like the intro and u didn’t watch the courtroom scene?

c0y0te wrote:

What a freakin' letdown :mad:

The only good thing about this episode was the music in the last 30 seconds.

The rest was pure cop-out, start to finish.

If they wanted to stay gritty - they should have chucked the bugger out an airlock; it's not as if he won't be around again later now is it?
Dammit all to hell anyway. I loved this show when it kicked off, but now it's just gone kinda bleauggh

I hope you are a unique person like me because if your view is the view or most normies then BSG is in for a grave future.
Why would they throw him out an airlock? It makes no sense from a writing point of view. At the mo him being a cylon is debatable right? So if your not 100% sure, so sure you would bet your life on it then if they do kill him by ****ing him out an airlock then people will know he IS a cylon because it’s a or the main character being killed off, it would be less believable than when starbuck died.

c0y0te wrote:

As for the whole final 5 thing.. Who cares anymore? The plot has lost it's way, the writing has gone all fuzzy and the characters seem to have reverted to a wooden state.

I Care

c0y0te wrote:

Oh well - at least Heroes is back on the air next month!

I Didn’t know there was a date for Heroes or heroes origins yet I thought we would have to wait for maybe 2 months or so

SofaKing wrote:

Oooooh, i liked this one. Courtroom drama was pretty good (nice speech from Adam Jr, which makes for a nice change from Adama Sr. doing the pontificating normally) and the ending, which was very different complimented it nicely - maybe ep1 next season will be a ball-to-the-walls action episode

Think its a shame though that Tigh may be a Cylon - kind've cheapens all that he's gone through and makes his character development seem pointless Hopefully, the writers have something special planned for him.


I expect, as mentioned above, that Lee is imagining Kara or 'projecting' or something.

The revealed Four will probably spend most of next season hiding their identities.

Also, expect the El Prez to bite the dust, within touching distance of Earth, in keeping with the prophecy.


P.S. I had a big-ass cheesey grin on my face to match the cheesy zoom-out and zoom-in to Earth at the end

jor el wrote:

Bloody hell. Bob Dylan is a Cylon, never saw that coming.

Quite a slow build up with the courtroom but interesting none the less. As said, Lee's speech was very good and made a lot of sense. Everyone got away with murder up until Baltar, because nobody likes him.

What was the story with all the ships loosing power, were the four new maybe-Cylons causing that? It seemed to end just as soon as they all decided that they were Cylons. If the Chief is a really one then I guess Hera isn't alone in being a hybrid. I couldn't help but feel a bit pissed off at Tigh being one though, bit of a cop out that.

It's sure to be a hell of a start to season 4, but I wish they had done some of this in season 3 instead of making us wait over a bloody year with nothing but the promise of a few flashback specials later in the year.

I think Tigh being a cylon will add so much to the character and give him allot to do and think about, i wanted to say more on this but all i can say is that it is a great charactor develemment and ithink it will cheapen everything he has been though if they just say that he killed himself or something like that. He has been though so much and now this...

Its amazing.

Overheal wrote:

they could explain that maybe Tigh actually commited suicide, and that the cylon model replaced him before he was reinstated by Adama. (Season 2)

Fraid not, the 12 cylon models are cylons and they are not copies of existing humans, that means that either Tigh and the others are not cylons or they are and always have been.

DS wrote:

Does anyone else agree that this spoiler info should be spoilered here. It kind of takes the fun out of idle speculation when someone can come along and say "well so and so said this", even if it's vague or questionable info, it still should be spoilered.

The way spoilers should work are

If there is a episode name like this "BSG - S3 E20 - Crossroads Part 2 **Spoilers** " Then it is ok to post ANYTHING from miniseries-episode 20 season 3,

What you do HAVE to spoiler

Anything from the web anything from future episodes or interviews with cast or ron ect. you can provide a link just make it spoiler.

Also anything that is in reference to the original series of BSG should also be spoilered

geecee wrote:

Tigh, Anders and the Chief were all interred in the torture chambers in New Caprica... Could the presidential aide also have been interred?

I wonder were they implanted with something by Br. cavill - that would just make them think they are cylons?

I’ve thought of that but it seems like a cop out and Tyrol’s line of "where cylons and we have been from the start" seems like that’s the way it is.

Talisman wrote:

El Prez has another shot at being cured of cancer by getting a blood transfusion from Cally's baby. But for that to happen, the final five would have to reveal themselves.

Eh, ye I can see it happening but only one of the 5 would have to reveal themselves or they could just use Hera’s blood again

B-K-DzR wrote:

I asked this before but i'll ask again incase people missed it. Does anyone know what version of "all along the watchtower" that is? thanks

I don’t know what version, some special version that will be out along with the DVD and soundtrack in Aug this year

DS wrote:

That's not what I mean. My interpretation of the spoiler warning in the thread title is that it refers to spoilers in this episode, which makes perfect sense. I'm talking about spoilers for future episodes e.g. "X has been confirmed by X as the final cylon". I think it's pretty reasonable to expect this kind of info to be spoilered.

Yes spoilers are spoilers for this episode anything future episode spoilers should be covered with spoilers, I assume the topic only says spoilers because it stops people who don’t know boards well from getting there shows ruined.

CiDeRmAn wrote:

Lots of coincidences in that there Orion nebula, at least thats what it looks like.
Reckon that the chances of a bunch of Baseships and Starbuck flying amiably along is one straw too many, perhaps she hitched a ride, perhaps the Cylons got there first.
Loved the courtroom stuff, all it lacked was Matlock!
The standard of writing and acting is a cut above the rest, I remember reading Verheidens Aliens comics back in the day, nice to see he hasn't lost it.
But the 4 guys being Cylons, listening to earth music, and old earth music too, 1500 lightyears away, so if the music got there under its own steam that would place our heroes in or around the year 3500, always wondered at what stage of development they find us, will it be the far future, will it be now?
If the future surely they would have entered into our sphere of influence by now, unless theres nobody home anymore?
Not to worry, Starbuck will tell us.
Roll on 2008, can't come quickly enough for this fan. Wonder if the wife will let me rename our son Apollo, her name is Kara, seriously!

And what’s yours?
You could get your name legally changed and then get your kids name changed as well...

I don’t think that it was all too much of a coincidence because if those ships belong to the 6/7 cylons that we already know (actually when discussing them should we call then the 6's or the 7's?) anyway ye those group of cylons are looking for earth as well and that’s probably how they ended up at the nebula and as for starbuck.... she was coming from the wrong side so I don’t know wtf is going on there

Grimes wrote:

omfg


lost for words


...eh.... orgasmic

ps: best version of All along the Watchtower I have ever heard

GerardKeating wrote:

but she did not hear the music, or did she?

She didn’t hear it *talking about roslin*
But she shared a vision with 6, Athena and i actually think that the child shares the visions as well, at its current stage of development the child’s brain is not developed enough to get reactions or vocalisations out of it but when you think about it....

That child was born from one cylon and one human (as far as we know)
The child has the Boomer/Athena blood in its veins but the child was also supposed to be the child of baltar and head 6 (i don’t know WTF the deal is head 6 or baltar so meh) and that child’s blood was also donated to cure Roslyn.

Maybe the child itself is god?
It seems odd that everyone who is someone way or another connected to the child would share a vision maybe the child is the daughter of god or something like that? head 6 and head baltar are both angels watching over everything?

personally I hate religion and god and all that stuff but it’s a theory that I got today during lunch

CiDeRmAn wrote:

Well the show is finished at the end of the 4th season so I guess they have to start rapping things up, tie up a few loose ends.
I know that the wait til 2008 seems immense but at least we should have the Pegasus mini series to look forward to between now and then, that should fill the hole nicely, as the actress said to the bishop.
Starbuck turning up will take some explaining given we all saw her craft explode, downloaded perhaps? Although there didn't seem to be any resurrection ships in the vicinity, I don't know.

Good thing its all only pretend, right?

WHAT!??

Ye i know, but someone has to say it....

aNYWAY, I’m convinced that starbuck either downloaded back to earth or didn’t explode and she went through a wormhole that leads to Sol so it’s either or I don’t want them to go too far out I hope she didn’t ascend or something like that.

quad_red wrote:

Wtf?

Certainly, the end had my full attention. Yeah, we knew it was the blond angry lesbian returning when we saw the unidentified dradas contact. And yes, we already had guessed who was gonna be in the cylon 'unveiling' but...

Tyrol and Tigh!??! Two of the most human characters in the goddamn thing!?!?

What the hell? I don't know whether it's genius or complete aimlessness.

It was genius me and my 2 mates both massive BSG fans where absolutely breathless for the last few mins I was in so much shock I actually forgot to breath, And Tigh's Speech wow...

quad_red wrote:

having them all as cylons (Tigh, Tyrol etc.)

Cos if she is, Galactica (a rust bucket in the process of being decommissioned had no less than five cylon agents aboard. If every ship in the flight had that many there'd be hundreds of them and they would surely overlap.

1. Sharon
2. Tyrol
3. Tight
4. Starbuck
5. Aaron Doral

If Starbuck is a cylon, then why the hell would they take her ovary?

Bah - I give up!

All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.

The 7 don’t know who the 5 are so they would not have known starbuck is a cylon if she even is cylon

cregser wrote:

I think something like this must have been part of the plan from the start. The writers had to know (mostly) who the 12 where.

Some peeps are saying they're sad to see the writers showing their cards as it signifies the winding down of the series. But as a viewer of Lost I'm glad to see a show finally get to the promised land and actually reveal stuff. As crazy as the ending was, it made it interesting

p.s. i think Lee is imagining Starbuck and Baltar has to still be involved.

Huh I didn’t spot that oh well time to re-watch season 3.... And I kinda wanted to wait until just before the Pegasus mini series (yes i know its based before season 3)
As for the winding down i don’t think so you don’t start to wind down 28 episodes away from the end. There has not been that many BSG episodes (53 to be exact) so there is still more than 1/3rd left in BSG so i don’t think its winding down. They just don’t want to be like lost, also they don’t to overload our brains in season 4 so there getting started at the end of season 3 to kinda ease us into this whole thing and give us a long time to think about it.

Talisman wrote:

The revelations on the identities of the four cylons:

It would be easy to concentrate on the bad: flaws in choosing those characters to be cylons so I'm not going to, instead I'll focus on the good: coincidences in the story arcs.

Tyrol suspected himself of being a Cylon. Remember when he went to see Cavil, he was told something like "You're not a Cylon because I haven't seen you at any of the meetings". Cally is going to be suicidal when she discovers she has shacked up with a cylon and her son is a half cylon.

Yes great minds think alike I’ve been dying for Cavil and Tyrol to meet ever since that episode finished, also it would mean that for the story either their child or else Hera will be killed, if they have 2 human/cylon hybrids then there are able to kill off one of them for a nice emotional story - but i don’t think they will beat the Tigh and Ellen story.

Talisman wrote:

The four have played a significant role in helping the survivors. Anders led the resistance on Caprica. Tori and Tigh attempted to steal the election for Roslin and would have got away with it too but for that pesky Gaeta. Had Roslin won the election, there would not have been a settlement on the recently discovered planet. On New Caprica, Tyrol, Tigh and Anders ran the resistance, while Tori was responsible for Hera. Tigh, Anders and Tyrol ran the death squad on Galactica - they're like anti-cylons.

What I still want to know is who was Deanna talking 2 in the temple of Fie?
She saw the final 5 looked at one of them and said "I had no idea" so id go with either Anders or Tigh.

Talisman wrote:

Obviously the sleepers were being good humans, demonstrating exceptional character under extraordinary circumstances. If this was part of their programming it would explain why the other seven don't speak of them - the final five would seem to strive to be more human than the humans themselves a bit like replicants in Blade Runner.

I get the feeling its more reverence that they don’t speak of the final five, the cylons might see them the same way as crazy people think its not ok to show a religious Muhammad figure in a comic or TV show

Talisman wrote:

The black out:
I must watch the scene again but did the power get restored immediately after the four admitted to themselves that they were cylons?

I’m not sure, i don’t know it would not make sense if that where the case, in fact i cant think of a explanation
maybe

1. It can’t be sabotage because it effected all ships and there are only 6 cylons left in the fleet and we were just shown 4 leaving 2 left...... Who is the fifth? and which of the 7 is still left in the fleet?

Talisman wrote:

The final cylon:
Leboen said that Adama is a cylon, he didn't specify which Adama though. If it's Bill or Lee then they haven't been triggered yet. Most likely we're not going to discover who it is until the finale of the series. But Bill was doing that projecting thingy with his dead wife. What would be really mind bending is if was revealed as Zack being the cylon.

Well i actually thought your post was the best until i got to the end, i hate you, this is why i do this, i don’t post in the BSG forum because of people like YOU

Talisman wrote:

Orrignal Series

Haven't quite decided what I think of the return of Starbuck: At the moment I'm leaning towards it being related to the ships of light/resurrection story line from the original series.

next time you want to ruin something spoiler tag the thing, the Pegasus was last seen fighting several basestars in the original ye? well guess what it got destroyed in this one 2 that’s a spoiler. its ok for me to type that because that happened ages ago and its not a future spoiler what you are saying may be ruining BSG for those that do not want to know and i just don’t see how that is fair, also i have never once in all the years ive been at boards had a mod react to the few posts i have reported, When you want to post something that is a potential spoiler before you put in your (spoiler) type the words
"Orrignal Series"
before it and you will end up with something like

Orrignal Series

See its that easy it barley takes 2 seconds to type those extra 2 words at the start and it fair because tho who have not seen the orginal will not get get things spoilered.

Talisman wrote:

The final cylon:
Leboen said that Adama is a cylon, he didn't specify which Adama though. If it's Bill or Lee then they haven't been triggered yet. Most likely we're not going to discover who it is until the finale of the series. But Bill was doing that projecting thingy with his dead wife. What would be really mind bending is if was revealed as Zack being the cylon.

But the 5th cylon being on Galactica..... why didnt he/she/it go to the room with the other 4?

Ye when he projected i was interested by that allot because it also reminded me of what leoban said, actually i didn’t need reminding ive been thinking about it since it happened a long time ago on Sky1

Overheal wrote:

Lee did the projecty thing when he was adrift in space after he disabled the Ressurection Ship's FTL drives. It could still be either: hell, it could be Zack or their Grandfather for all we know! It would also fit in with Leo's truth within lies MO

Hmm i didn’t think that was projection i thought that was symbolism and oxygen deprivation

.... but you might be right...

CiDeRmAn wrote:

Once again, how, if the toasters only rebeled a certain period ago, can Tigh be a cylon? not possible, unless they can do an old bodysnatch.
Unless the human type cylons aren't cylons themselves, but some other race.
They certainly seem as human as the humans, prone to the same kinda flaws only with the promise of resurrection after death and a good ability to work together, hmm, sounds like the mormons!

But Tigh is only about what 50? Was the original war not 50 years ago?
hmm odd that i cant remember, actually i think it was 40 years ago was the first war, then nothing for all that time until the valkrie went over the line....

So if cylons can grow then yes he and the other 4 could have been dropped off as children but what about the age differences?
it does not make sense....

i mean if boomer died now and resurrected would she look 3 or 4 years younger?

duridian wrote:

That's along fairly similar lines to what I've been thinking.
One thing which I think supports the idea of the skinjobs existing before the toasters is that it helps explain why the toasters turned against the humans. If skinjobs were mixed in with the humans at that point, then some could have easily been involved in designing the toasters, allowing them to program the toasters accordingly.

Ye i like that idea, i still find it hard to understand how it all happened tho, i cant get my mind around how the cylons even put up a fight in the 1st war, ye i know the cylons where everywhere on the planets working for humans before they rebelled but i don’t get how the cylons put up such a fight unless the skin jobs where secretly building centurions because one would assume all the other cylons of that era where just manual labour and stuff but no ships or basestars so they must have commandeered allot of civilian ships, eh i just don’t know right now, only about ......

oh wait in less than a year will BSG be finished?
i think it will if it starts in Jan and has 22 episodes then, well actually mid season break thrown in.

Nuttzz wrote:

maybe the cylons are the 13th tribe and earth is their homeworld? or is that too far out?

Now that’s a brain make thinkey...

All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.

The humans lived in peace with the gods on kobal, the cylons are created things go wrong the 12 human colonies go where we know and yes the 13th tribe was cylon, buy why would the cylons (13th tribe cylons) leave a virus that can harm them behind in space? Im not too sure about this line of thought.....

quad_red wrote:

Same as the above. Anyway, Moore has apparently said that he only decided the identities of the final five this year. Hence, it doesn't really matter if there are inconsistencies, it could still be them!

****

No, Thats not BSG, Its a planned out show with very few inconsistencies compared to star trek or other sci-fi

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

I re-watched the end of this episode last night and then dreamt that Helo is the fifth Cylon. That'd make baby Nick the first of the new hybrid species, but then it would throw out everything we've been told about Cylon's being unable to reproduce amongst themselves. Would be a total head**** though

Well we don’t know what the story is, i don’t see why two cylons can’t have a baby.
1. We don’t know if helo is or is not a cylon
2. We don’t know if baltar is or is not a cylon
3.We have been told that maybe the missing component is love, a human emotion but 2 cylons programmed to be human could experience that emotion and then fall in love and if love is what it takes for a cylon to have a child then it is possible,

Also remember back on old caprica? Kara? at the farm?
We never got to know much about the results of the cylon experiments maybe they succeeded

dan_y wrote:

adama met tighe After the first cylon war. they had both been discharged from service since combat had ended and were eeking out an existence as freighter pilots. they met in a bar after they happened to work the same convoy once. later, adama used his then wife's connections in the military to get himself re-instated and as soon as he got to the rank of major he got tighe re-instated and took tighe with him when he gained command of galactica. .

It was the Valkrie i thought?

dan_y wrote:

and the phenomenon that "killed" kara was the same pretty hole she'd been drawing since she was a child. seems like she was destined to explode there. either that or there really was a cylon raider - and that's what exploded - and she flew straight down, and the phenomenon turned out to be a wormhole to earth.

I’ve thought that as well, but im going to go for either wormhole or else she did die and she resurrected back on earth which is where any of the Final Five resurrect two, Earth is a place where man and cylon live in peace

dan_y wrote:

everybody is so hard on shows like this, the ones that try to push boundries - there's such a drive to be more realistic, to try and make the impossible fit into a palettable (believable) scenario - that shows like Battlestar Galactia, who I think really are trying to do something totally different and really incredible, are being pigeon-holed into an impossible situation. it's not fair that everytime they go out on a limb the people who are supposed to be their fans accuse them of jumping-the-shark. I'm not even sure what that means but it sounds mean..

Well from the stupid amount i have posted its obvious i love this show and i only decided to post this much because of the amount of people bitching at the quality of this seasons episodes.

dan_y wrote:

I really hope all this pressure doesn't see them churning out some Fox-friendly rehash of archtypical science-fiction finales with season 4(5?). maybe we could just suspend disbelief for a little longer?

I mean, they have given away that earth is there for the taking. now we know season 4 is gonna be a hell of a race. and it seems like the cylons have a head-start.

Nice post anyway I don’t think Moore will let anything happen although i am VERY VERY VERY surprised that he only decided the names of the Final Five recently, it should have been planned out from episode one because if the Final Five is anyone of the people who were on Ragnor Anchorige I will not be a happy Fish.

A friend of mine said something similar he does not want any inconsistency’s in the show and neither do i, that’s one of the things i love about he show, it has a running story ark with no fillers, the closest thing t a filler i have seen was the episode called "Hero" but that can’t be called a filler because its when Tigh gets up off his arse after the whole Ellen incident.

aidan_walsh wrote:

Hmm... Most of the other questions I have have already been addressed, so...

Why did Roslin flinch just before the power outage? Its like she was able to feel whatever caused it before it took out the power.

Also, regarding the 4, at least it gives me a clue as to one of the long standing niggling questions about the series - just who did leave that "There are only 12 models" note on Adama's desk way, way back when?

Also, "pull a comb through their hair once a week" - Roslin, you bitch

Baltar left the message on Adama's Desk. well actually id only be 98.9% sure of that.

As for Roslyn I’m a little hazy because im holding off re-watching BSG until i get this new monitor in 2 weeks but i think that she flinched because she was just about to share that mad vision with Hera, Athena and Caprica Six

The Freeman

i hear ya with the waiting for the rewatching of the series's;) , gonna grab a rear projector and stick it through the ould wharfdale sound system in a month or so,thats gonna rock, its good to see a bit of activity over in the battlestar forum, cant wait for razor and the web episodes leading up to it over the coming months(the main female protaganist controling the pegasus was a reall biatch)

User45701

ye, good actor two she was Ro in star trek as well.

ye my mate has a 50 inch HD so where going to watch season 1 in HD i belive it due out just before razor