Islam and Homosexuality: An informed discussion

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote:

Well, to address this quickly without going off-topic...

I don't know if it's true to say that a lesbian would necessarily be considered as outside of Islam. I'm not 100% sure of this so don't quote me on it. But I would imagine that it would be considered to be a sin like any other (albeit a major sin) and one that someone could potentially repent from (such as alcohol, murder, etc).

To re-address.....

Not if the person felt it was NOT a major sin to be lesbian .

Its like someone who doesn't pray 5 times a day, but know they should, and someone who thinks they dont have to pray 5 times a day.
The first, they should repent and try harder to follow Islam, the second however causes them to fall outside of Islam.

That was my point. If someone is professing to be a lesbian, thinking its not sinful, this 100% causes them to be outside of Islam and hence there can NOT be Islamic lesbians.

InFront

Post moved from 'A Non Muslim's View on Hijab'.

DinoBot, did you read this warning?

Here is a new thread to discuss what Islam teaches on homosexuality in an informed and rational manner.

Edit: There is a similar thread in Humanities at the moment.
So maybe this one could focus on searching for the Islamic teaching so that we can make ourselves aware what Islam says about homosexuality; and we'll keep arguments to a minimum, agree?:)

Dontico

DinoBot wrote:

That was my point. If someone is professing to be a lesbian, thinking its not sinful, this 100% causes them to be outside of Islam and hence there can NOT be Islamic lesbians.

there are christian gays, why not muslim gays?
soem christian believe(note there are different versions of christianity) that all sins carry the same weight, i.e. gay relationships, sex before marraige, murder, stealing and talking the "lords" name in vain. i assume islams laws are simular.
also it is posible to repent for a sin. hence the whole jesus buzz. i assume islam may a simular stance.

philologos

Homosexuality is a sin in Christian scripture too. Just some choose to pick and mix religion. I assume that could also be the case in Islam?

Boston

So if you're Muslim and you don't see Drinking as being sinful but rather you don't drink because of your beliefs are you also outside Islam? it's the same here. Homosexuality is largely nature, not taught behaviour, as such how can that prelude you from a particular faith? Can you choose not to be gay? Of course not.

Hobbes

Boston wrote:

So if you're Muslim and you don't see Drinking as being sinful but rather you don't drink because of your beliefs are you also outside Islam?

Technically yes. But the same could be said of the Catholic Church, I recall my sister many years ago having issues trying to get her daughter baptized when she wasn't married and hadn't been going to that Church. She had to go to another priest in the same church (younger one). Or another example is last time I was in Korea my wife went to her local Church there to pick up her baptismal cert (She is more religious then me) and when the priest was asking about when we got married, etc and she had said it was a civil wedding instead of Church he turned into a bit of prat going on about how we were living in Sin because a priest didn't do the wedding.

That said and bit back on topic I do recall a documentary where there was a muslim woman hairdresser (I forget the country) where it is written she is forbidden to touch mens hair. But she believed herself to be a devout Muslim but at the same time felt that she had a job to do. Not sure it totally equates to homosexuality though.

I think at the end of the day most religions if you don't follow their rules then your not a *real* follower even if you believe yourself to be.

Boston

Ok, since you brought up Catholics, there are a lot of rules about Sex with regards to not only what you can do, but also think, few people have never broken at least one of them. However it would be ridiculous to say that these people arn't catholic. I don't know of any religion where the requirements are that you are without sin.

But you know what, this topic ,from the title, isn't just about Muslim gays, so what do you guys think about Homosexuals that arn't Muslim, is it still a sin and if so why anymore so then all the other things members of other faiths do, but you guys arn't allowed to?

InFront

I think there is no doubt but that the practice of homosexuality is a sin. This was the behavior of the people of Lut (Amal qawm Lut) that was met with great anger by Allah, who punished them with death.

Allah has not created in us some perfect machines to do his will, he has created weak men who can become sinners. And one of the ways that we can be good Muslims, to prove ourselves as such, is to repent from our sins.

I'm no authority whatsoever on fiqh, but I think that a person can feel homosexual - but it is avoiding that practice, overcoming that burden on him, that reveals him for the good and well-intended Muslim that he is. As-Shahid (The Witness) is what we call Allah, he is witness to all things, but he will witness repentance and strength of character as much as he will witness the feelings that homosexuals may have, and in seeing that I think he would be very happy with their refusal to submit to their desire. Remember he is Al-Gafir (the pardoner) too.

InFront

Boston wrote:

so what do you guys think about Homosexuals that arn't Muslim, is it still a sin and if so why anymore so then all the other things members of other faiths do, but you guys arn't allowed to?

Firstly, it is bizarre that some claim that there are no gay Muslims, or that Muslims cannot feel homosexual, these Muslims certainly do exist. I think it is equally naive, however, to assume that everybody must be submissive to their sexual urges.
I don't think being nonMuslim changes the gravity of the sexual act, if that is what you mean? Allah watches non Muslims too, as Muslims we believe that everyone will be judged by Allah.

Boston

InFront wrote:

I think there is no doubt but that the practice of homosexuality is a sin. This was the behavior of the people of Lut (Amal qawm Lut) that was met with great anger by Allah, who punished them with death.

Of course there is doubt, I don't view it as any more of a sin then going down to the local for a pint.

Allah has not created in us some perfect machines to do his will, he has created weak men who can become sinners. And one of the ways that we can be good Muslims, to prove ourselves as such, is to repent from our sins.

Ah, see thats the crux of this isn't it. IF I'm not a muslim why would I repent to Allah. Isn't that just fake. As such how can I find salvation.

I'm no authority whatsoever on fiqh, but I think that a person can feel homosexual - but it is avoiding that practice, overcoming that burden on him, that reveals him for the good and well-intended Muslim that he is.

Strikes me that there are two ways to over come that burden. Also Women can be gay.

I don't think being nonMuslim changes the gravity of the sexual act, if that is what you mean? Allah watches non Muslims too, as Muslims we believe that everyone will be judged by Allah.

If I read between the lines here, you're saying it's a sin? For me there is no Gravity in the sense you mean it, attachted to sex.

InFront

Well I said in the first sentence that I think it's a sin, it is a very serious one.

But I am talking about living as a practicing homosexual there, not feeling gay, because I don't know if that is a sin, maybe someone can clarify if they know.

Ah, see thats the crux of this isn't it. IF I'm not a muslim why would I repent to Allah. Isn't that just fake. As such how can I find salvation.

I can't answer that for whatever you believe in. It is the Islamic teaching that practicing homosexuality is haraam (forbidden), as Muslims we believe this. If a nonMuslim hears this lesson and refuses to accept it, or dismisses Allah, there's very little a Muslim can do if he doesn't change his mind. Ultimately, knowing the facts, it is his or her decision.
That said, if someone is feeling this way and is worried about getting involved in that kind of thing, I think the great sin for a "straight" Muslim would be not to help them and it would surely be an obligation to be as compassionate and helpful as possible with that person.

Boston

InFront wrote:

I can't answer that for whatever you believe in. It is the Islamic teaching that practicing homosexuality is haraam (forbidden), as Muslims we believe this. If a nonMuslim hears this lesson and refuses to accept it, or dismisses Allah, there's very little a Muslim can do if he doesn't change his mind. Ultimately, knowing the facts, it is his or her decision.

You realise your collection of beliefs make up a faith and are not facts? I'd hasard a guess that you know very little about homosexuality, but you're very willing to talk about facts regarding it.

That said, if someone is feeling this way and is worried about getting involved in that kind of thing, I think the great sin for a "straight" Muslim would be not to help them and it would surely be an obligation to be as compassionate and helpful as possible with that person.

Your Help would more then likely not be help at all in fairness.

Filan

I don't mind Muslims believing that practicing Homosexuality is a sin (of course I would rather they did not) ,but the key point for me (see also humanities strand) is whether Muslims are prepared to accept freedom of choice, not just to tolerate but accept the right of others to think and practice different values.

Great though that this debate is here , I feel it really should not be restricted to this medium, there should be a nationwide debate. With the Islamic community growing at a fast pace, their host community should not be ignorant of their beliefs, nor they of ours. It should be on television, radio and print media.

Hobbes

Boston wrote:

You realise your collection of beliefs make up a faith and are not facts?

Look watch yourself please.

I'd hasard a guess that you know very little about homosexuality, but you're very willing to talk about facts regarding it.

The best he can do (anyone can do) is show his point of view. He may be incorrect but he is talking from his experience. If it doesn't match your experience that isn't an issue.

The forum is to ask topics in relation to Islam. It is not to berate it, even if you disagree with it or the answers you get.

In relation to the sin point. It may not be a sin to you but it is in Islam. As you mentioned some people do things against their religion but believe it is not a Sin. This most likely applies to gay Muslims as well.

Boston

Hobbes Faith is the absence of facts, it doesn't make sense to talk about any faith in terms of facts. Also that was not the point I was making about Sin. People Sin all the time it doesn't stop them being X, Y or Z, and following on from that I asked if it's still considered a Sin even if you are a non-believer.

I find it surprising that you consider my posts here as berating Islam. Perhaps you should leave this topic alone and post else where, as you seem intent on turning it towards the hostile.

the_new_mr

I said not to quote me on that DinoBot!

I see your point about the difference between believing it is a sin and not.

Still, I feel very uncomfortable saying that someone has left the fold of Islam. It's a very serious statement to make and one I'd rather not to do unless I feel 100% certain about it.

I think about this kind of thing a lot. Not specifically with reference to homosexuality but in general and usually specifically with reference to thinks like small differences in belief (such as whether or not interest from banks is okay and that sort of thing). One hadith (saying) of the Prophet (peace be upon him) that I remember is:

"Actions are only according to intentions, and to each only what he intended. Whoever emigrates towards God and His Messenger, his emigration is towards God and His Messenger; whoever emigrates for the attainment of a worldly goal or in order to marry a woman, then his emigration is only towards what he emigrated to."

So, in this respect, is a lesbian who honestly believes that her being a lesbian is not un-Islamic not considered to be sinning? Or is something like that so obvious that she can only be kidding herself? I'd like to sit down with someone that thinks that being homosexual and Muslim are compatible or someone who thinks that you don't have to pray and hear them give their explanation why they think it's okay with respect to the verses in the Quran explaining homosexuality to be a sin or the obligation to pray.

Perhaps something like whether or not it's okay to accept the interest provided by banks can be included in this as there is no consensus among scholars and it's not obvious at first glance what's right when the religious texts are examined.

Dontico wrote:

soem christian believe(note there are different versions of christianity) that all sins carry the same weight, i.e. gay relationships, sex before marraige, murder, stealing and talking the "lords" name in vain. i assume islams laws are simular.

Possibly. We can look at the following hadith.

"Allah ordered the appointed angels over you that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed how to write. If someone intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed, and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him its reward equal from 10 to 700 times to many more times. And If someone intends to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (in his account) with Him, and if he intends to do a bad deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him one bad deed."

God is indeed the Most Merciful (al hamdlilAlah - thank God!).

Boston wrote:

Homosexuality is largely nature, not taught behaviour

This is debatable in fairness. Also, as InFront pointed out, perhaps homosexual tendencies are someone's own personal test from God. We can only speculate I suppose.

Boston wrote:

However it would be ridiculous to say that these people arn't catholic. I don't know of any religion where the requirements are that you are without sin.

That's a very good point and something to keep in mind. We're not meant to be perfect. That's the Angels.

As humans, we're going to sin. That's a fact of life and the sooner this is realised, the better. At the same time, we should be making constant effort not to sin. I guess the best way is to be making constant progress whilst at the same time not beat yourself up too much for having a blip in progress and think that you're a terrible person. This is something I only realised quite recently.

I'm afraid I may have given the wrong impression there. I don't mean we're not supposed to be feel bad when we sin but I think that you're not supposed to hate yourself for it and we should certainly never despair of God's readiness to forgive us. May God guide us to what is right and keep us from what is wrong.

InFront put it pretty well when he said:

InFront wrote:

Allah has not created in us some perfect machines to do his will, he has created weak men who can become sinners. And one of the ways that we can be good Muslims, to prove ourselves as such, is to repent from our sins.

As a Muslim, I guess we should try and remind ourselves of the following verse.

Al-A'la:14
"But those will prosper who purify themselves,"

In fact, Surat Al-A'la is one of the most beautiful chapters in the Quran and I usually find it inspiring. Here's the whole sura as well as a link to listen to it (as it only really sounds great in Arabic). Mishary Rashid recites Surat Al-A'la

Al-A'la
Glorify the name of thy Guardian-Lord Most High, Who hath created, and further, given order and proportion; Who hath ordained laws. And granted guidance; And Who bringeth out the (green and luscious) pasture, And then doth make it (but) swarthy stubble. By degrees shall We teach thee to declare (the Message), so thou shalt not forget, Except as Allah wills: For He knoweth what is manifest and what is hidden. And We will make it easy for thee (to follow) the simple (Path). Therefore give admonition in case the admonition profits (the hearer). The admonition will be received by those who fear ((Allah)): But it will be avoided by those most unfortunate ones, Who will enter the Great Fire, In which they will then neither die nor live. But those will prosper who purify themselves, And glorify the name of their Guardian-Lord, and (lift their hearts) in prayer. Day (behold), ye prefer the life of this world; But the Hereafter is better and more enduring. And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation), The Books of Abraham and Moses."

Boston wrote:

Of course there is doubt, I don't view it as any more of a sin then going down to the local for a pint.

Do you see the irony of saying that here? Was that intended?

Filan wrote:

With the Islamic community growing at a fast pace, their host community should not be ignorant of their beliefs, nor they of ours. It should be on television, radio and print media.

Well, for sure there should be discussion so that there can be mutual understanding. Still, I think it's important to point out that Muslims are not the only ones in Ireland who think that homosexuality is not okay. There are plenty of Christians of course and there are also atheists who don't like it either. Just wanted to point that out.

Hobbes

Actually faith is an acceptance of beliefs which are not necessarily demonstrable through experimentation or reason.

That doesn't mean that a religon cannot be based on facts. In fact nearly every religon is based on some level of facts that changed over time. I recall something the_new_mr said that the Koran is perfect, men are not (sic).

One mans sin is another mans pleasure. Just because one doesn't see it as such doesn't mean the other person doesn't still see it as a sin.

As for hostile, I found your post to be somewhat aggressive towards Infront. Your in here to get a view from Muslims regarding homosexuality. Of course your not going to get experts on the subject of homosexuality itself. If that is what you wanted you could try the GLB forum.

Or what exactly is it you wanted to know?

Boston

Is there nothing in Islam that conflicts. I mean is there no part of the religion where you have to make a choice between believing one thing or another which are at odds with one another? I know it's all over the place in Christianity. The point I'm trying to make is that maybe a Muslim could see homosexuality as a sin, but feel that denying themselves love and happiness for all their life as the greater sin. It's easy to say just don't give into urges, but how do you stop yourself from loving someone, or being loved by them? Yes someone can be celibate but that's just seems a lie to me, a cop out, it's not going to make you any less gay.

This is debatable in fairness. Also, as InFront pointed out, perhaps homosexual tendencies are someone's own personal test from God. We can only speculate I suppose.

Not really debatable. Why are you straight, is it because you where raised that way, or is it because you where born that way. Maybe it is a test from God, but to what end? To see if you can have the courage to be true to yourself despite the pressures of the society and culture into which you are born, maybe. If you and I had been born into each others life's, would I be Straight? I would perhaps live a heterosexual life, but inside I would know what I was.

PS I did see the irony;)

Hobbes: InFront is a moderator, he doesn't need you to step up for him. If you feel I'm being aggressive with him, then say so. Don't make out that I'm attacking Islam, I've no agenda in that regard.

InFront

No I'm not wrapped up in cotton wool, it's okay:D

Just in relation to relationships. I guess what would be best there would be firstly to avoid engaging with people where the situation could arise; then to make du'a (supplicate, call Allah) and make zikr (for example repeating a phrase like Allahu akhbar (God is great)).

Al-Baqara 286 begins with (what means) "Allah does not burden a soul more than it can bear". In cases where you think Allah might be testing you, this suggests that He only tests you when He knows you have the ability to overcome something. This is the opportunity to prove God right.
In a Hadith, The Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Every son of Adam makes mistakes. But the best of those who make mistakes are those who repent." (At-Tirmidhi)

Obviously this can be a very sensitive subject, we as Muslims don't enjoy saying things to make people feel bad about themselves or out of malice. The aim should be to show people Allah's teachings.

InFront

the_new_mr wrote:

In fact, Surat Al-A'la is one of the most beautiful chapters in the Quran and I usually find it inspiring. Here's the whole sura as well as a link to listen to it (as it only really sounds great in Arabic). Mishary Rashid recites Surat Al-A'la

It is, Jazak'Allahkhair (May Allah grant you what is good)

the_new_mr

Boston wrote:

Is there nothing in Islam that conflicts. I mean is there no part of the religion where you have to make a choice between believing one thing or another which are at odds with one another?

In what way exactly? I already mentioned the thing about interest and banks but I get the feeling that you're asking about something else.

Boston wrote:

The point I'm trying to make is that maybe a Muslim could see homosexuality as a sin, but feel that denying themselves love and happiness for all their life as the greater sin. It's easy to say just don't give into urges, but how do you stop yourself from loving someone, or being loved by them? Yes someone can be celibate but that's just seems a lie to me, a cop out, it's not going to make you any less gay.

Well, I have a theory about this.

I think that, first of all, love can be towards someone of the same sex or someone of a different sex. The difference is that (obviously) a homosexual person is also physically attracted to someone of the same sex as well as being in love with them whereas a heterosexual person is physically attracted to someone as well as being in love with them and so these feelings of love may become intensified. I think it's probably a bit deeper than that still but that provides a good enough base for what I'm about to say.

So, it could be that this physical attraction is partly the reason (note my use of the word "partly") why someone feels that they are sexually orientated in that way and there could be a number of reasons for that (as mentioned in the wikipedia article linked to below).

And I'm of the opinion that with the media helping the idea that homosexuality is normal, people who might be borderline homosexual are more likely to go with the idea that they are instead of questioning it. I know a few Muslims who, if lived in a secular society, would probably be suspected of being gay just because they're not as macho as some of us. This suspiciousness would no doubt be felt by them (they may even hear the rumours that they are gay) and they would likely end up asking themselves "Am I gay?" and sub-consciously feel some kind of social pressure to answer "yes" to that question. Sort of like "If everyone thinks that I'm gay then I must be gay" but at the sub-conscious level.

Now, I think you'll find that your comment of:

Boston wrote:

Not really debatable.

doesn't really stand when you find that there has been and still is plenty of studies going on trying to figure out whether it's a case of nurture or nature (it's worth reading the Critique of studies section as well).

Something tells me that we're not going to end the nurture vs nature debate here in the Islam forum on boards.ie once and for all. Something also tells me that the whole subject of homosexuality in the human race is something that would probably require a good month of reading for me to fully get my head around it.

But we can at least talk about it with respect to Islam (if not religion on the whole).

Boston wrote:

Maybe it is a test from God, but to what end? To see if you can have the courage to be true to yourself despite the pressures of the society and culture into which you are born, maybe.

Possibly. As I said, we can only speculate.

Boston wrote:

If you and I had been born into each others life's, would I be Straight? I would perhaps live a heterosexual life, but inside I would know what I was.

Well, obviously, there's no way of knowing for sure so I don't see the point in you stating with what appears to be 100% certainty that you would be gay regardless. This seems to be some kind of belief that you were destined to be gay or something. As if it is part of your very soul. This is a belief I don't share with you and I don't think you can come up with
anything to prove otherwise. If you could, I think you would have solved the nature vs nurture debate once and for all.

InFront wrote:

Obviously this can be a very sensitive subject, we as Muslims don't enjoy saying things to make people feel bad about themselves or out of malice. The aim should be to show people Allah's teachings.

Very good point there and worth repeating. We're not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. We're just saying what we believe is the truth. I've known a few homosexuals in my life and they were mostly nice dudes (and dudets).

Boston

In what way exactly? I already mentioned the thing about interest and banks but I get the feeling that you're asking about something else.

Well I don't know enough about Islam to be picking out specific examples. But from Christianity you have your hard and fast rules, then you have your grey area and this concept of "higher truths" or whatever they call it these days, whereby depending on what way you look at certain teachings you can extract different weightings towards or away from things. For instance, yes the bibles says homosexuality is wrong, and the parts where this is outlined are often quoted, however there are far more condemnations of heterosexuals in it. I know very few people that live a heterosexual lifestyle that is without sin, and those that do, it's not by choice. Would you say it's similar with Islam?

I think that, first of all, love can be towards someone of the same sex or someone of a different sex. The difference is that (obviously) a homosexual person is also physically attracted to someone of the same sex as well as being in love with them whereas a heterosexual person is physically attracted to someone as well as being in love with them and so these feelings of love may become intensified. I think it's probably a bit deeper than that still but that provides a good enough base for what I'm about to say.

I think what you're saying here is that the love between a man and a woman is/can be stronger then that between a man and another man due to the nature of the male - female relationship. Can't say I've found that to be true for me, however there are those who would agree with this. When you talk about the type of love that cuts deep into your soul and stays there and never leaves, the type of love that makes it hurt just to breath sometimes, I think that love transcends mortal flesh and that gender isn't all that relevant, even for heterosexuals.

And I'm of the opinion that with the media helping the idea that homosexuality is normal, people who might be borderline homosexual are more likely to go with the idea that they are instead of questioning it. I know a few Muslims who, if lived in a secular society, would probably be suspected of being gay just because they're not as macho as some of us. This suspiciousness would no doubt be felt by them (they may even hear the rumours that they are gay) and they would likely end up asking themselves "Am I gay?" and sub-consciously feel some kind of social pressure to answer "yes" to that question. Sort of like "If everyone thinks that I'm gay then I must be gay" but at the sub-conscious level.

That cuts both ways. Not only are the media putting out that it is normal to be gay, but also what defines normal for a homosexual, which often doesn't tie in with reality. There can be huge pressure that because you don't conform with some stereotype that you should be straight. I also don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for people to ask themselves questions like am I gay. Always know yourself and your place in the world.

Ok, forget about studies with regards to nature Vs nature there only there to backup or challenge what you already believe. It is logical to believe that homosexuality with regards to being a sexuality is the same as heterosexuality, as such do you believe that your personal sexuality is largely nature, or largely nurture? Of course various aspects of our sexuality are nurture, but the fundamental building blocks I believe have to be nature, because there are simply to many expectation's to the nurture theory. Nature doesn't have to mean soul either though, but that's depends on how you view the concept of a soul.

Well, obviously, there's no way of knowing for sure so I don't see the point in you stating with what appears to be 100% certainty that you would be gay regardless. This seems to be some kind of belief that you were destined to be gay or something. As if it is part of your very soul. This is a belief I don't share with you and I don't think you can come up with
anything to prove otherwise. If you could, I think you would have solved the nature vs nurture debate once and for all.

Well I'm not actually Gay, I'm bi-sexual, but that's a whole other topic. I wasn't raised in an environment where it was OK to be Gay far from it in fact, not an exaggeration to say that I felt at the time I was taking my life in my hands by coming out in college. All through school the worst thing you could be was a "****". I've known of kids/people that where forced out of the community, even some murdered less then 100 meters from my front door. If I had never fallen in love I would never have come out, but it would have always been there, on some level.


Anyway, I've a final year project to go do some work on, so it looks like this debate will have to be drawn out over a number of weeks.

DinoBot

Hobbes wrote:

Technically yes. But the same could be said of the Catholic Church, I recall my sister many years ago having issues trying to get her daughter baptized when she wasn't married and hadn't been going to that Church. She had to go to another priest in the same church (younger one). Or another example is last time I was in Korea my wife went to her local Church there to pick up her baptismal cert (She is more religious then me) and when the priest was asking about when we got married, etc and she had said it was a civil wedding instead of Church he turned into a bit of prat going on about how we were living in Sin because a priest didn't do the wedding.

.

Nail on the head. I think your story illustrates it perfect.

People think religion is a birth right. Just because you were born into a family of a particular faith does not mean you will follow (or have to) that faith when you get older.
When people compalin to me saying "I cant beleive my religion does not allow "X", it should, its sooo backward"
My reply is always the same:
Perhaps your not really that religion and you should look elsewhere, why change the religion when the problem is actually with yourself!

So if someone wants to be (or is) gay and sees no problem with it, then simply find a religion which allows you to be, there are plenty. Islam is not one however.

Im not talking about people who are gay and feel shameful about it, thats a whole different thing, they have much further to go before they can be at peace with themselves. Im talking about people who are gay and like being gay and see nothing wrong with it. Why waste your time trying to change Islam to accept you. Leave.

Filan

While I would like just to ignore Islamic doctrine on Sexuality, their expansion within Irish society makes me feel that long term such an approach would be unwise. Long term if Sharia doctrine on Homosexuality is articulated by significant portions of an inflated Irish Muslim community it will cause many, many problems. A few weeks ago a group of dark men..probably Muslim (ok I can't prove they were but it is ery probable for several reasons) laughed collectively at my slightly feminine appearing attire...I passed them again a few minutes later and they did the same again. They really made me feel uncomfortable. I am worried that we are importing homophobia when we already have enough of our own...Muslims cannot be ignored because their numbesr are rapidly increasing. Perhaps the state should do more, do citizenship tests really help?
. Either way I can respect Islam, it has positive elements, but I find it difficult when I experience such discriminantion...where was the respect for me?
And the issue is not just about Homosexuality, it's about respecting the right's of others to choose, in may domains. They did not respect me and they were not acting in isolation. How can Muslims respect the right's of Homesexuals when the Koran advocates such bloody retribution?. And the Koran does impact upon behavoiur, it legitimises violence, or at least many Muslims, many of them living amongst us, feel it does. I am afraid

the_new_mr

Boston wrote:

Well I don't know enough about Islam to be picking out specific examples. But from Christianity you have your hard and fast rules, then you have your grey area and this concept of "higher truths" or whatever they call it these days, whereby depending on what way you look at certain teachings you can extract different weightings towards or away from things. For instance, yes the bibles says homosexuality is wrong, and the parts where this is outlined are often quoted, however there are far more condemnations of heterosexuals in it. I know very few people that live a heterosexual lifestyle that is without sin, and those that do, it's not by choice. Would you say it's similar with Islam?

I wouldn't say so. When it comes to major sins, there isn't much room for misunderstanding. God knows best.

Boston wrote:

I think what you're saying here is that the love between a man and a woman is/can be stronger then that between a man and another man due to the nature of the male - female relationship.

No, what I was saying was that the emotional feeling towards someone is intensified by physical feelings so a person my perceive themselves to be emotionally gay because they have physical desires towards someone of the same sex which enforces their love for that person.

Boston wrote:

Ok, forget about studies with regards to nature Vs nature

Sorry but why should we?

Boston wrote:

It is logical to believe that homosexuality with regards to being a sexuality is the same as heterosexuality, as such do you believe that your personal sexuality is largely nature, or largely nurture?

With respect, there's nothing logical about it. For me personally, I believe that my sexuality is nature enforced by nurture. Perhaps someone who has homosexual tendencies was straight by nature but the nurture (or perhaps negative nurture) didn't enforce it (like what Freud was saying... although he's a bit of a sicko in general and I don't care much for his theories).

Boston wrote:

but the fundamental building blocks I believe have to be nature, because there are simply to many expectation's to the nurture theory.

The key word there is "believe". The nurture theory is, in my opinion, way more plausible.

Boston wrote:

Anyway, I've a final year project to go do some work on, so it looks like this debate will have to be drawn out over a number of weeks.

I think that this has turned into the classic nature vs nurture debate which is off-topic both for this thread and this forum so unless there's anything more to say concerning to the title of this thread then we may as well call it quits.

DinoBot

Filan wrote:

How can Muslims respect the right's of Homesexuals

Its a tough one to trickle down to the average lay person. Id say it would be like a 1950's man being brought froward to today. Ive no answer.

Some may answer you on that topic but IMHO it will be an academic answer. The reality is something very very different, as well you might know yourself.

the_new_mr

@Filan

I would say that it's probably best not to generalise. Your post sounds reads very racist.

Filan wrote:

A few weeks ago a group of dark men..probably Muslim (ok I can't prove they were but it is ery probable for several reasons)

This is unbelievable. It's also just as probable that they were Christians or atheists.

They shouldn't really have laughed at you. But you're not even sure they were Muslim. Be careful, the kind of attitude you have about this can only need to a negative conclusion.

Also, I think you've got a bigger problem with the Irish community to be honest with you.

Boston

DinoBot wrote:

Nail on the head. I think your story illustrates it perfect.

People think religion is a birth right. Just because you were born into a family of a particular faith does not mean you will follow (or have to) that faith when you get older.
When people compalin to me saying "I cant beleive my religion does not allow "X", it should, its sooo backward"
My reply is always the same:
Perhaps your not really that religion and you should look elsewhere, why change the religion when the problem is actually with yourself!

So if someone wants to be (or is) gay and sees no problem with it, then simply find a religion which allows you to be, there are plenty. Islam is not one however.

Im not talking about people who are gay and feel shameful about it, thats a whole different thing, they have much further to go before they can be at peace with themselves. Im talking about people who are gay and like being gay and see nothing wrong with it. Why waste your time trying to change Islam to accept you. Leave.

Is Islam the same accross the world? Is it the same as it was 2000 years ago? Is it rigid and unbending? Accept things as they are or leave, seems like a narrow view point.

the_new_mr wrote:

No, what I was saying was that the emotional feeling towards someone is intensified by physical feelings so a person my perceive themselves to be emotionally gay because they have physical desires towards someone of the same sex which enforces their love for that person.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how is that distinct from what happens with a heterosexual?

I say to disregard studies as from my experience you can find as many studies as you like to back up what ever view point you want. I'm curious to know why you feel heterosexuality is nature while homosexuality is taught behaviour. I theorise it probably has something to do with a stereotypical view of homosexuals.

Filan: You're coming across as more then slightly crazy there. I've never had a problem with Muslims, and I used to score my boyfriend outside their pray room in college.

Hobbes

Boston wrote:

Accept things as they are or leave, seems like a narrow view point.

It is and its how most religons are.

TBH I would like to see exactly what documentry metro was talking about. I would be interested to see how the women were able to come to terms with such outlooks.

InFront

Boston wrote:

Is Islam the same accross the world? Is it the same as it was 2000 years ago? Is it rigid and unbending? Accept things as they are or leave, seems like a narrow view point.

Islam doesn't change. It is really something bigger than just us, Islam was around long before us all and it will be here after us too. The Shari`ah is a timeless manifestation of Allah's infinite kindness, mercy, and wisdom. Allah does not change, neither do these attributes, and nor can his principles be changed by man, simply interpreted as best we can into practice.

If it is nature or nurture might not really matter in the context of this discussion. The real question is what Islam teaches once it gets to that point of the person thinking they are a homosexual.
I'm not saying we should ignore it, but how that came about is not the major issue, the biggest issue is what they do when they feel that way, or how they deal with it. Allah is very clear on what should happen: they must not engage in sin, but remain close to Allah and be submissive to Him alone, not things that would lead them astray.

InFront

Filan wrote:

While I would like just to ignore Islamic doctrine on Sexuality, their expansion within Irish society makes me feel that long term such an approach would be unwise.

Preventing citizenship or residence on the grounds of religion is dodgy water. It's very wrong on a great many levels.

I am worried that we are importing homophobia when we already have enough of our own...

it legitimises violence, or at least many Muslims, many of them living amongst us, feel it does. I am afraid

Islam has a clear position on homosexual behavior, it is haraam - expressly prohibited. In terms of your practical fears, as the_new_mr said, you have more to worry about from others. I would suggest the troublemaker on the street who is intoxicated with something than somebody who is at home for prayer, or fears Allah. There is no Islamic institution in Ireland to make judgements on people.