Islam and Homosexuality: An informed discussion

the_new_mr

Boston wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how is that distinct from what happens with a heterosexual?

It's not. That's my point. If someone gets their emotional attachment to someone intensified because of a physical reason then may begin to think "Well, I must be gay".

Boston wrote:

I say to disregard studies as from my experience you can find as many studies as you like to back up what ever view point you want.

You can find as many studies as you like alright but then it's up to you (and anyone else) to decide how convincing they are.

Boston wrote:

I'm curious to know why you feel heterosexuality is nature while homosexuality is taught behaviour. I theorise it probably has something to do with a stereotypical view of homosexuals.

I can assure you it's nothing to do with a stereotypical view of homosexuals. Let's see, how can I put it? Physical compatibility?

Anyway, as I said earlier:

the_new_mr wrote:

I think that this has turned into the classic nature vs nurture debate which is off-topic both for this thread and this forum so unless there's anything more to say concerning to the title of this thread then we may as well call it quits.

swiss

Well, I don't have a particular issue with the stance of Islam in relation to homosexuality, perhaps surprisingly. As has been pointed out, most organised religions frown upon if not outright condemn homosexuality. To single out Islam and say "that is backward" ignores the same contradictions within Christianity which is more prevalent in this culture at least.

Of course, that is not to say that I agree with it. If you accept that God or Allah made humans (as Muslims do) then why would he (or she) give humanity the 'burden' of homosexuality - and then expressly forbid it in scripture? To test us? To single out people as if to say "here you must wrest with the glaring contradiction of being sexually and emotionally drawn to members of the same sex whilst knowing that to pursue this instinct is morally wrong and will land you in hell".

Lets assume for the moment that this is the case, and that irrespective of whether homosexuality was wrought by natural disposition or the circumstances of upbringing it must be combatted through whatever means available; abstainance, prayer, faith, self flagellation, or other. Perhaps it is just as well that I'm not a religious person, because if I was I would be very angry at any Deity that imposed such a daily struggle upon me. Doesn't he *want* me to live a happy, fulfilling life? If it is some sort of test of my character through some infinite wisdom I don't understand, then it has backfired, for it has decidedly turned me against the tenets of organised monotheist faith.

So it looks like I'm doubly damned. I'm damned for my disbelief and will be sent to the great fires for not practicing Islam, and I'm damned for my adherence to practices and beliefs that are so abominable to Allah. To the hellfires I go. Toasty. Of course exactly the same thing can be said about Christianity. So, assuming the tenets of Islam are correct and that Allah exists and wants people to believe in him and pray to him (5 times a day though - I mean why does he want people to say "you're great" to him so much. Is he that neurotic?) my fate is sealed. I guess that's my beef with religion generally and it's attitude towards homosexuality.

InFront

swiss wrote:

If you accept that God or Allah made humans (as Muslims do) then why would he (or she) give humanity the 'burden' of homosexuality

If it is innate, and we don't know for sure, then it could very well be for the same reason that Allah made us weak with a tendancy to pander to to money, jealousy, greed, etc. If He wanted us perfect, He could have made us so. I don't think the possibility can be completely ruled out that homosexuality is - or can be, for some at least - a test from Allah to reveal one's strength and the strength of your iman (faith)

I would be very angry at any Deity that imposed such a daily struggle upon me. Doesn't he *want* me to live a happy, fulfilling life?

I think He does really, but of all the wisdom in the Qur'an, nowhere is it written "Life is easy you guys, just have a nice time!". It's not supposed to be easy, I think it's is more about revealing your strength to God than just lying back pondering how great everything is. You have to work for happiness, you have to work hard to be a good Muslim.

maitri

It definitly seems that there are people out there who consider themselves both muslim and gay:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=162593750

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13712248/

InFront

Sure, but there are Muslims who drink alcohol too. Just from that second link, I find it strange that members of a group called Iman (faith) "vary in how rigidly they keep to Islamic practices like praying five times a day and eating halal food"??

I would be interested to know just how they manage to back that kind of thing up with a Qur'an. It just just seems like rejecting the bits you don't like and keeping the bits you think will be easy. That's not ijtihad, as they seem to suggest.
I would also take issue with the guy (Ubaid) who said that "Judaism and Christianity have moved... but sex isn't talked about full stop (in the Islamic world),". Given the amount of fatawa that are issued in relation to sex and homosexuality and this sort of thing, maybe he should look a little closer.
Anyway, yes there are actively gay Muslims. But it doesn't mean this is warranted in Islam.

Boston

That myspace link had a video interview in it that raised a question, how tolerent of your attitudes towards homosexuality do you believe people should be? Do you believe that non-muslims should view it as being wrong and oppose it? Previous post would suggest you do.

InFront

how tolerent of your attitudes towards homosexuality do you believe people should be?

Since it is an Islamic teaching that this is expressly sinful and that Allah says so (and Allah will not commit any injustice), then it is natural to feel disappointed if people are disagreeful with it, let alone intolerant of others following it. So I think people should be at least tolerant of Islam.

Nevertheless, how disagreeful nonMuslims happen to be of a matter of fiqh really shouldn't really have any bearing on the extent of its validity, nor the extent to which one stands by it or affirms their beliefs in it.

Do you believe that non-muslims should view it as being wrong and oppose it?

Oppose Islam's teachings? No. Allah made us all. Islam applies to everybody.

Boston

InFront wrote:

Since it is an Islamic teaching that this is expressly sinful and that Allah says so (and Allah will not commit any injustice), then it is natural to feel disappointed if people are disagreeful with it, let alone intolerant of others following it. So I think people should be at least tolerant of Islam.

Nevertheless, how disagreeful nonMuslims happen to be of a matter of fiqh really shouldn't really have any bearing on the extent of its validity, nor the extent to which one stands by it or affirms their beliefs in it.


Oppose Islam's teachings? No. Allah made us all. Islam applies to everybody.

Well thats pretty scary line of thought. Would you be happy with people holding negative viewpoints on the morality of being a Muslim and encouraging the spread of those view points provided as they tolerated your existence? I don't think your beliefs are in keeping with an open an secular society, in fact they seem to be fundamentally at odd with the principal of accepting other people as who they are, in that for you, it's no one a sin to be gay, but also a sin if you feel there is nothing wrong with being gay. I think this type of attitude is going to lead to a lot of conflict and strife in the future here.

Btw I notice you go to trinity, do you use the pray room in goldsmith hall?

maitri

InFront wrote:

I would be interested to know just how they manage to back that kind of thing up with a Qur'an.

If I understand correctly they certainly seem to believe in the Qur'an as inspired by God, but not as a real word-for-word “heavenly dictate”. This means they don't necessarily see the Qur'an as absolutely infallible (nor that everything in it is to be understood as literal truth), but like other holy scriptures it’s influenced by the time in which it was written, as they see it. If something in the Qur’an does not agree with their heart and their common sense even when they’ve asked God for guidance in prayer, the feel free to look away from it. It’s very similar actually to how a lot of Christians view the Bible.

InFront wrote:

Anyway, yes there are actively gay Muslims. But it doesn't mean this is warranted in Islam.

I’m happy to see that you don’t just deny their existence as some Muslim leaders do.

InFront

Btw I notice you go to trinity, do you use the pray room in goldsmith hall?

No, I'm in RCSI I just happen to be involved with a research thing in Trinity, but yes, I use the prayer room, You guys are lucky to have a very active Muslim students' association there too.
Anyway, I agree that my opinions are not in keeping with a secular outlook... and that's why I'm not a secularist, but a Muslim.
Nevertheless, that is not to say this is a 'disruption' or at all threatening anymore than I find secular principles a "threat" to my faith: Islam is as much a personal guide as it is for the community. Being a good Muslim begins with the individual, it's not about going out into the world imposing upon people.

it's no one a sin to be gay, but also a sin if you feel there is nothing wrong with being gay

To be honest I'm not really sure about the first part so I wouldn't say anything there either way. But yes, practicing homosexuality is definitely a sin.

InFront

maitri wrote:

If I understand correctly they certainly seem to believe in the Qur'an as inspired by God, but not as a real word-for-word “heavenly dictate”. This means they don't necessarily see the Qur'an as absolutely infallible

Well see this is the thing, they call themselves Muslims, but reject the authenticity of even the Qur'an. Personally I don't understand how these things are compatible, or what evidence they are using to back that up, apart from their own desire to behave contrary to its teachings.
It does seem to be suggestive of ridda (apostasy), (and that would be a serious allegation). Either way, it isn't for us to say they are Muslims or not.
I agree with you that of course there can be gay Muslims. Saying otherwise sounds like saying there are no Muslim sinners, or no Muslims who are terrorists (to use an extreme example). It's just that their behaviour does not come from Islam.

Boston

I don't know you reject a "secular outlook" but clearly wish to live in a majority catholic country which accepts Islam. Seems as much a contradiction as anything else.

InFront

Wouldn't a majority Catholic country, by default, reject a secular outlook?

Either way, I don't believe in 'go-away' policies. Ireland has an ethos of religious freedom as opposed to secularism per se. I don't see a contradiction.

maitri

InFront wrote:

Well see this is the thing, they call themselves Muslims, but reject the authenticity of even the Qur'an.

Might they not just have a different view of what it means to "believe in the Qur'an"than you have? They might still believe in the Qur'an in the sense of seeing it a sacred scripture inspired by God and as a source of inspiration for themselves, while rejecting it's absolute infallibility (or while doubting some of the translations and interpretations of the old Arabic original).

If I understand you correctly believing in the Qur'an for you on the other hand means believing it to be a word-for-word dictate by God of eternal truths to be believed in and followed by all people in all times, or otherwise end up spending eternity burning in Hell. Am I right?

InFront

maitri wrote:

Might they not just have a different view of what it means to "believe in the Qur'an"than you have?

Yes, and I think they do.

If I understand you correctly believing in the Qur'an for you on the other hand means believing it to be a word-for-word dictate by God of eternal truths to be believed in and followed by all people in all times,

Definitely ever since the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him) yes.

or otherwise end up spending eternity burning in Hell. Am I right?

I don't know, I don't think about that. All judgements on the destiny of a person are always left to God only, because only He is able to ultimately decide on justice for an individual.

maitri

InFront wrote:

I don't think about that.

Really? I have read (a translation of) the Qur'an a couple of times (though I've been told that my translation is not very good.), and it seems to me that it really has a lot to say (and is rather specific) on the topic.

I find it sympathetic that you leave the judging to God, though.

DinoBot

maitri wrote:

It definitly seems that there are people out there who consider themselves both muslim and gay:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=162593750

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13712248/

As I have said in previous post, that just shows that these people are stuck thinking that religion is a birth right and your are stuck with the religion your born with. Just because they are born muslim they think its true and muct stick to it even thought their lifestyle is complete opposite to it.

I think you wont find a link to a guy person converting to Islam

Filan

perhaps they mean Muslims in a 'cultural' sense? Even if one does not practice one's birth faith, one is still a product of that culture. I have long since abandoned Catholicism but I stlll consider myself a Catholic in the cultural sense.

the_new_mr

Don't think you can consider yourself a Muslim in a cultural sense really. I don't think it's really possible to do that with Catholicism either since religion is not supposed to be connected with culture. That's the whole point of religion isn't it? It's supposed to transcend all that stuff as it deals with the soul rather than the body that the soul inherits.

Anyway, there's a lot to be said here (and InFront has already answered a lot of it) but I think the main point I'd like to address is the point that some people felt it's unfair of God to test people. Some verses which I think are very relevant follow.

Al-Ankabut:2
"Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?

Al-Baqara:214
"Or think ye that ye will enter Paradise while yet there hath not come unto you the like of (that which came to) those who passed away before you? Affliction and adversity befell them, they were shaken as with earthquake, till the messenger (of Allah) and those who believed along with him said: When cometh Allah's help? Now surely Allah's help is nigh."

Al-Baqara:216
"... it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not."

Everyone has their own tests. I know I do. So I guess we have to strive to pass the test. May God help us to pass the test and be of those that He is pleased with on the Day of Judgement Insha Allah. Ameen.

Filan

It is a minor point admittedly but I have heard ex-Muslims , rightly or wrongly state that they are still "cultural Muslims". Religions does impact upon society, perhaps in an ideal setting it should not, but it does. Many customs, conventions, even state constitutions have their roots in religion and whether one practices religion or not one is still a part of this culture.

the_new_mr

Forgot a very important verse last time.

Al-Baqara:286
"On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear...."

And people shouldn't despair of God's mercy.

Al-Baqara:143
"... God will surely not lose sight of your faith-for, behold, God is most compassionate towards man, a dispenser of grace."

filan wrote:

I have heard ex-Muslims , rightly or wrongly state that they are still "cultural Muslims".

Wrongly then

There's no question that religion affects the culture it is in. But if someone ceases to be of that religion then they shouldn't consider themselves "cultural Muslims" since they no longer consider themselves as those who submit to God.

DinoBot

Filan wrote:

It is a minor point admittedly but I have heard ex-Muslims , rightly or wrongly state that they are still "cultural Muslims". Religions does impact upon society, perhaps in an ideal setting it should not, but it does. Many customs, conventions, even state constitutions have their roots in religion and whether one practices religion or not one is still a part of this culture.

Disagree, if someone declears to be a "cultural-anything" its because they have not bothered to investigate their faith properly.
Or they have, and dont believe in their birth faith, and are too weak to stand behind this belief.

Most times its because people dont bother and are happy to float along in life and do as their perents have done, no matter how stupid that may be