The pubes shaving thing

Pet

I know that practicing Muslims are meant to maintain the characteristics of fitrah, which includes shaving the pubic and armpit hair.

I know there are a lot of crazy rules in the Bible which nobody pays attention to anymore (not wearing clothes spun from mixed fibre, eating shellfish, etc), but as far as I'm aware Islam is a lot more strict about following rules.

How seriously is this one followed? And..eh..is it not a bit irritating? Speaking from experience like..

Also, does anyone know the purpose behind it? Most (seemingly) crazy rules have a basis in practicality - eg shellfish was banned due to food poisoning, pork was banned due to trichinellosis, etc. Was there a big crabs outbreak 1200 years ago?!

InFront

Um yes this is a requirement, because it's part of the fitrah as you say. It is good to be clean with your body and this is valued in Islam. Cleanliness and personal hygiene is important for performance of worship too. This requirement was voiced by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) with the other requirements of the fitrah and is really in no doubt.
It also really isn't something that can be ignored.

(AL-AHZAB: 36), what means:
And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.

Hopefully that answer is sufficient, the topic isn't a joke, it is taken quite seriously and as you can imagine it is quite a private question.

the_new_mr

Just in case anyone is wondering, fitrah means instinct (or something close to that).

Pet wrote:

How seriously is this one followed?

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure if this is an obligation or something preferred.

Pet wrote:

And..eh..is it not a bit irritating? Speaking from experience like..

You must not be doing it right

Pet wrote:

Also, does anyone know the purpose behind it?

As InFront already pointed out, it's mainly down to personal hygeine but it's also connected with doing something nice for your spouse.

InFront wrote:

as you can imagine it is quite a private question.

It is a private question but also a fair question. If people are embarrassed to ask questions then they won't get their questions answered.

The following link might be helpful.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543336

Sangre

Why did he gives us pubes in the first place then?

wes

Sangre wrote:

Why did he gives us pubes in the first place then?

To shave?!? To keep us warm in the Winter!

Or perhaps its a hold over from our pre-Human ancestry or something.

wes

wes wrote:

To shave?!? To keep us warm in the Winter!

Or perhaps its a hold over from our pre-Human ancestry or something.

So you guys are ok with evolution?

wes

bluewolf wrote:

So you guys are ok with evolution?

Some are, some aren't. Not too dissimilar to the other major Abrahamic faiths. Probably best to start a topic if you want a proper discussion.

Anyway back to the topic at hand, its a cleanliness thing for the most part and the other reasons provided above.

Jesus Wept

wes wrote:

Some are, some aren't. Not too dissimilar to the other major Abrahamic faiths. Probably best to start a topic if you want a proper discussion.

Anyway back to the topic at hand, its a cleanliness thing for the most part and the other reasons provided above.

I have pubes and I'm clean

wes

The-Rigger wrote:

I have pubes and I'm clean

Who said you can't have them and be clean..... .

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

the prophet, apparently.

sheesh.. what is it with all these major religions being fixated on the crotch.. although at least muslims only ask that you shave the hair off... I still think the jews are evil for circumsising their kids

InFront

Muslim men are also circumcised as babies. It is too a part of the fitrah which includes the removal of pubic hair as discussed above, armpit and moustache hair and keeping your fingernails short.

And scientific studies have pretty consistently affirmed that there is no big harm in infant male circumcision, it tends to be portrayed as evil in pop science documentaries but that's about all. I don't think you'll ever hear a balanced medical publication refer to it in those terms, though they may simply advise against it if they see it as unnecessary.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

it's cruel and unusual punishment for any baby (male or female), really.. really.. really painful for them.

the_new_mr

Well, I had it done and I can't remember it

I'm pretty sure I haven't been emotionally scarred or anything like that

GerardKeating

Mordeth wrote:

it's cruel and unusual punishment for any baby (male or female), really.. really.. really painful for them.

The BCG vaccination is also a source of pain for babies, do you advocate against this as well?

Some surveys do suggest that it more hygenic to be circumcised.

the_new_mr

GerardKeating wrote:

The BCG vaccination is also a source of pain for babies, do you advocate against this as well?

Good point.

Wibbs

GerardKeating wrote:

The BCG vaccination is also a source of pain for babies, do you advocate against this as well?

In fairness an injection compared to the surgical removal of highly ennervated tissue in a newborn is a bit of a stretch TBH. Not really a good comparison regardless of which side of the argument one stands on.

Some surveys do suggest that it more hygenic to be circumcised.

The jury's still out on that one and you can find pros and cons all over the place. Put it another way, girl babies get far more urinary tract infections then boy babies yet no one is suggesting surgically altering them. Basically male circumcision is a cultural tradition/religious thing.(BTW Female circumcision while often associated with Islam is very much a local/cultural thing and is condemned by 99.9% of Islamic scholars.)

humbert

Is the shaving thing gender specific, and why moustache hair but not beard hair? (I may have read somewhere about hiding ones face as a form of modesty, or I could be way off the mark).

HelterSkelter

I am against circumcision as I don't believe you should remove a part of your body given to you by God......but here's a news link with a major health benefit of being circumcised!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6502855.stm

WHO agrees HIV circumcision plan
Foreskin cells are thought to be more vulnerable to HIV infection
International experts have backed the use of male circumcision in the prevention of HIV.

The World Health Organization and UNAIDS said circumcision should be added to current interventions to reduce the spread of HIV.

Three African trials have shown that circumcision halved the rate of HIV infection in heterosexual men.

The recommendations largely apply to countries where rates of heterosexual transmission is high.

Experts warned that greater use of circumcision would not replace the need for other prevention methods, such as condoms.

But modelling studies have shown that if male circumcision was more widely available, millions of lives, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa would be saved.

WHO and UNAIDS said access to the procedure should be urgently scaled up in areas with high rates of heterosexual infection and low rates of male circumcision.

But warned that it was an additional intervention and would not replace programmes providing HIV testing, or prevention or treatment for sexually infected infections.

Men and their partners must also be given counselling to prevent them developing a false sense of security, they said.

Training and monitoring must be done to check circumcision is being done by appropriate health professionals in a sanitary environment with proper equipment.

And they stressed there was no evidence yet as to whether circumcision has any impact on the risk of infection for the woman or on the risk among men who have sex with other men.

Significant step

Kevin De Cock, director of HIV/AIDS at the World Health Organization said: "The recommendations represent a significant step forward in HIV prevention."

"Countries with high rates of heterosexual HIV infection and low rates of male circumcision now have an additional intervention which can reduce the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men."

However, he said it would be years before the impact on the epidemic would be apparent.

Catherine Hankins, UNAIDS, said: "Being able to recommend an additional HIV prevention method is a significant step towards getting ahead of this epidemic.

"However, we must be clear: male circumcision does not provide complete protection against HIV.

"Men and women who consider male circumcision as an HIV preventive method must continue to use other forms of protection such as male and female condoms, delaying sexual debut and reducing the number of sexual partners."

All three African trials were stopped early because the results were so dramatic - with reduced rates of new HIV infections of 48-60%.

There are several reasons why circumcision may protect against HIV infection.

Specific cells in the foreskin may be potential targets for HIV infection and also the skin under the foreskin becomes less sensitive and is less likely to bleed reducing risk of infection following circumcision.

When Aids first began to emerge in Africa, researchers noted that men who were circumcised seemed to be less at risk of infection but it was unclear whether this was due to differences in sexual behaviour.

Deborah Jack, chief executive of the National AIDS Trust, said: "These recommendations address many of the benefits of including male circumcision in a comprehensive HIV prevention package.

She added: "Additional research to determine the health impact for women and men who have sex with men is vital, as is ensuring that adequate resources are provided to fund existing prevention methods, as well as continue research into new technologies such as microbicides and vaccines."

HelterSkelter

By he way, do any of the men here shave their armpits?

the_new_mr

I do and let me tell you... it rocks!! I didn't for a long while but after I started shaving my armpits, I love it! It's so much cleaner and you don't get as much BO because the bacteria doesn't find it as easy to breed and stuff. I'd recommend anyone here tries it. Just be careful with the razor!

humbert wrote:

Is the shaving thing gender specific, and why moustache hair but not beard hair? (I may have read somewhere about hiding ones face as a form of modesty, or I could be way off the mark).

Hello humbert and welcome to the Islam forum.

No, it's not gender specific.

As for the mustache hair thing. I think that the original reason behind shaving the mustache hair was to differentiate Muslims to other people such as the mongols. Growing beards and lightening the mustache was specific to Muslims at the time. I guess it's also cleaner so that you don't food stuck in there and stuff

Wibbs

Sangre wrote:

Why did he gives us pubes in the first place then?

Protects against chaffing and has some role in pheromone production apparently. Secondary sexual characteristic as well.

HelterSkelter wrote:

I am against circumcision as I don't believe you should remove a part of your body given to you by God......but here's a news link with a major health benefit of being circumcised!!

Yes I remember reading that. While there was some evidence of a protective effect the big thing that isn't mentioned is that the populations that were protected by circumcision where also the religious ones. IE Muslims, Jews and Devout Christians. These populations have a very very low rate of transmission anyway as they're not exactly promiscuous or practicing unsafe sex. Consider the US where the male population is almost entirely circumcised and they have a massively higher transmission rate than those populations.

OT As for beards, I think they look good on men. Some of the greatest men in history had them.

InFront

Wibbs wrote:

there was some evidence of a protective effect the big thing that isn't mentioned is that the populations that were protected by circumcision where also the religious ones... Consider the US where the male population is almost entirely circumcised and they have a massively higher transmision rate than those populations.

I wouldn't agree with that, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of circumcision, based both on this research and previous research in India and South Africa which corroborate the findings. Uganda has a HIV/ AIDS rate of 4%, Kenya is at about 7%, and the USA is at less than even 1%, according to the world factbook (select country) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

Having said that, obviously the main reason we are circumcised is Islam, not HIV prevention. HIV wasn't even an issue when most of us were born. Anyway, following Islam itself is pretty good for HIV prevention:)

humbert

InFront wrote:

Anyway, following Islam itself is pretty good for HIV prevention:)

Not entirely on topic but is islam in favour or at least not against contraception?

InFront

In terms of AIDS transmission between men and women who are not married, obviously that sexual relationship is sinful so the issue shouldn't even arise. But I can't see that using contraceptives to prevent transmission could be sinful, God knows best.
In terms of marriage, i think it's fair to say that using contraceptives is permissible, just as long as the reasons are valid and it isn't permanent.

Link

Now coming to the issue of birth control, there is nothing in Islam that prohibits it so long as it is done consensually for valid reasons such as the following: putting off pregnancy until such time when the spouses are in a better position to shoulder the responsibilities of parenting, to allow for space between pregnancies in order to provide proper nurturing and care to existing children, et cetera.

Nevyn

You have to remember that a lot of the customs are also to do with being a desert people.
It is hard to be clean or be cleansed quickly when you hair gets sand in it.
I find the mormons underwear more werid tbh.

humbert

Well that, on the whole, is healthier than catholicism. Does it explicitly say in the koran that the reason for circumcision is hygiene? Without being facetious, it would be a pretty terrifying thing for a man to do to himself or his child(at the beginning, before it was commonplace) in the name of hygiene.

Actually the desert/arid climate explanation and generally loose fitting clothes goes some way to answering that question.

InFront

humbert wrote:

Does it explicitly say in the koran that the reason for circumcision is hygiene?

No, but this is suggested in the hadith where Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is reported to have named circumcision as part of the fitrah (which refers to the pure human nature) along with removal of pubic hair as discussed above, armpit and moustache hair and keeping your fingernails short. Good hygiene is very important for when we pray.

Without being facetious, it would be a pretty terrifying thing for a man to do to himself or his child(at the beginning, before it was commonplace) in the name of hygiene.

Yes I imagine it was a tough one to explain alright. It is reported that Abraham, peace and blessings be upon him, circumcised himself at eighty with a hatchet. That just shows what an amazing strength of faith he had.

Wibbs

InFront wrote:

I wouldn't agree with that, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of circumcision,

No I would agree as the keratinization of the glans is lees likely to allow the virus to gain a foothold. There are other factors at work though.

Anyway, following Islam itself is pretty good for HIV prevention

Exactly. Sexual behaviour is the major factor, circumcised or not.

Yes I imagine it was a tough one to explain alright. It is reported that Abraham, peace and blessings be upon him, circumcised himself at eighty with a hatchet. That just shows what an amazing strength of faith he had.

and a very impressive aim it must be said. Sorry couldn't resist. A hatchet? Seriously? I think all the men here are both impressed and have just crossed their legs at the concept