Outragous hidden speed camera on the N3

MrPudding

GreeBo wrote:

I would counter that if the car in front is obstructing your view then you are too close to that car and should pull back from it until you have a better view of the road ahead.
This may well mean that the road ahead is now the car ahead but there will always be someting ahead of you. As long as you have the correct gap in front it shouldnt be a problem.

Regardless of how far you let the car in front of you go it will be obstruction some part of your view. This is not a factor of distance, if ti is in front of you it will be obstructing your view.

Gwendolyn Helpful Mango wrote:

Just to add to Greebo's reply to MrPudding. If everyone was of the same mind as MrPudding we would have a crazy situation of people overtaking and in turn being overtaken as the person behind them want the safe position in front; person number 1 would then have to reclaim the front spot... I see a race coming on.

You are actually adding to my point, if you read my post I mention this myself. Like I said, this is something that you will pick up under advanced instruction. Given that the vast majority of drivers in Ireland don't even have basic training I don't think we have anything to worry about.

But hey, I will pass you comments onto my advanced instructors, I am sure they will consider ammending the training. :rolleyes:

MrP

GreeBo

jmayo wrote:

Srameen, the issue I have is that at that point there isn't usually a camera. It was put on probably one of the most safest sections of road in the area.

No, it was put near start of dual carriageway where people that have spent 100/120 kms (on cra* roads) stuck behind slower vehicles will pass and probably go above the speed limit as they do so.

If there were people speeding there then they had it in the correct place. case closed.

jmayo wrote:

Yes, I speed when I am overtaking slower moving car, because I believe it is safer to perform the maneouver as quickly as possible.

In that case why not overtake at 200kph?
If you need to speed to overake then you dont need to overtake.

jmayo wrote:

One of the best ways I have seen used to control speed was a garda partol car cruising up and down, at the speed limit, along a stretch of road.
It was highly visible excercise and traffic proceeded at nice pace but it did not bring in any revenue.

Ok, so you just made our point for us.
If you think this worked then why wouldnt a camera do the same thing?
You seem to believe that the traffic on that road stayed to the limit even after the patrol car had gone? If it did then cameras on busy roads should work just as well. If it didnt then why are you applauding it as a good idea?
The only difference is fines. You object to being fined for breaking the law when you believe there are worse criminals out there.

GreeBo

MrPudding wrote:

Regardless of how far you let the car in front of you go it will be obstruction some part of your view. This is not a factor of distance, if ti is in front of you it will be obstructing your view.

Exactly.
There will always be something in front of you, if you feel the need to be the first car on every road then you will spend most of your day in the wrong lane.

GreeBo

Not shooting people(which is, after all, just an idea dreamt up by a politician)

Golferx wrote:

To overtake another motorist, while doing 100kph, can be one hell of a lot more dangerous than if you could do 120kph, or 130jph, performing the manoeuver quicker and safer.

Ehhh what road are you overtaking on that 100kph isnt fast enough for you to travel behind someone on?
If they are doing 80kph then why do you need to overtake them?
If they are doing less then surely an extra 20kph is plenty fast enough to pass them safely, unless you have chosen a stupid place to overtake...:rolleyes:

Golferx wrote:

If the Gardai were genuinely concerned with Road Safety they would be at the side of the road with their high-vis jackets on, not hiding in the back of an old Ford Transit, posting out summonses in a couple of months time.

If you know they might be out there why do you speed?


The rest of your post strikes me as such an angry teenage boy racer rant that I couldnt be bothered answering it.

GTC

Advanced driving and defensicve driving are built upon the ideal of slowly into danger and quickly out of danger. To overtake safely, you must maximise the distance for overtaking by doing it as quickly as possible. Slow overtaking is hazardous and has led to many accidents. While obviously I would encourage all to stick to the limits, please realise that several roads have hazardously high limits, just as often as roads have ridiculously low limits. This is a fact of life.

10 kph over the limit is fine for most drivers, as their speedometers do not accurately measure their speed, usually by 5 -10%. A car at 63 kph usually has a speedo reading of 70 kph if it's off by around 10%.

It is up to each individual driver to measure their own speed in comparison to their own driving style, ability and current road conditions. A blinding example of ignorance in this part was the recent N7 pileup.

jmayo

Greebo wrote ...."In that case why not overtake at 200kph?"
"If you need to speed to overake then you dont need to overtake."
That is a totally simplistic view.

When overtaking I endeavour to do so as quickly as possible even if that means I reach 110/115kph while doing so.
I have seen drivers passing other vehicles at exactly the speed limit and they are on wrong side of road for much longer.
Is that safer?

Yes I will overtake car doing 100 for some of the reasons given by other posters.
You have better view of road ahead and you are not of mercy of someone elses driving.

One of the drivers I have mentioned in a previous post was the one that hits the brakes everytime they meet oncoming car or for example come to a bend.
They may drive at 100 on straight but then jump on brakes at next corner.
And please dont give me "they are being safer drivers by slowing down at bends".
Not all bends need to be taken at 50kph.
Indeed some bends should only be taken at 25kph whereas others can actaully be taken at 100kph.
So do you just stay behind this driver for next half hour or do you pass when safe to do so ?

But why not ban overtaking altogether, make everyone drive 1 litre cars with governors that only allow top speed of 50kph.
But of course that would harm the tax take from road tax (which is actually not used on roads), VRT etc.

As previous GTC poster mentioned, and as I was informed by garda, it is a management decision to target specific areas which happen to be the very straight roads etc, that indeed result in the fish in a barrell scenario.
Why? The only logical reason can be it brings in more revenue to target these areas and "the powers that be" can then say they are increasingly dealing with the issue.
Garda would like to target late night rural roads but they do not have the resources to do so.

Golferx

@Greenbo, you're ignorance of the real world is staggering. You have, obviously, not a clue what constitutes "safe" driving. It does seem that, in your world, if a speed limit is x, then it must be safe. You have no idea what constitutes safe overtaking, for example. No idea whatsoever.

The roads of Ireland are a much more dangerous place with the likes of you on them. Most of us want safer roads, you are just calling for the rules to be obeyed. That is not the same thing.

There are roads, in Ireland, where it is perfectly safe to drive at 200kph, there are others where it is dangerous to travel at 40kph. In your world, Greenbo, you cannot differentiate between the two. Our National Speed Limit used to be 60mph, now it's 80kph. What logic was used to make this change, and what lives have been saved because of this political change?

What most genuine drivers are calling for is proper policing of dangerous driving, not strict enforcement of speed limits.

I drive in a safe manner, at all times. Unfortunately, me, and many others like me, are targets by our so-called guardians of Road Safety, unlike the real perpetrators of danger on our roads, who may, or may not, be exceeding the politician's derived speed limit.

Here's hoping, Greenbo, you get caught doing something and are removed from the roads, for the safety of those who are unfortunate to have to share the same road as you.

astraboy

Golferx wrote:

@Greenbo, you're ignorance of the real world is staggering. You have, obviously, not a clue what constitutes "safe" driving. It does seem that, in your world, if a speed limit is x, then it must be safe. You have no idea what constitutes safe overtaking, for example. No idea whatsoever.

The roads of Ireland are a much more dangerous place with the likes of you on them. Most of us want safer roads, you are just calling for the rules to be obeyed. That is not the same thing.

There are roads, in Ireland, where it is perfectly safe to drive at 200kph, there are others where it is dangerous to travel at 40kph. In your world, Greenbo, you cannot differentiate between the two. Our National Speed Limit used to be 60mph, now it's 80kph. What logic was used to make this change, and what lives have been saved because of this political change?

What most genuine drivers are calling for is proper policing of dangerous driving, not strict enforcement of speed limits.

I drive in a safe manner, at all times. Unfortunately, me, and many others like me, are targets by our so-called guardians of Road Safety, unlike the real perpetrators of danger on our roads, who may, or may not, be exceeding the politician's derived speed limit.

Here's hoping, Greenbo, you get caught doing something and are removed from the roads, for the safety of those who are unfortunate to have to share the same road as you.

Somebody get this man a medal! I 100% agree, Greebo just wants to see anyone breaking the limit to be put off the road, while ignoring the dangerous or incompetent drivers that drive below the limit. Safe driving often has little to do with speed limits and more to do with appropriate speed, awareness and driver confidence, ability and training.

jmayo

Agree with all sentiments from Golferx and Astraboy.
Greebo can not be for real with a statement like
"Why would you want to overtake somebody doing 80kph ?"
Maybe because I would like to get where I am going sometime the same day?

According to your logic we should all drive in convoy.
Then if something happens you can mulitple the number of vehicles involved.

GreeBo

Golferx wrote:

@Greenbo, you're ignorance of the real world is staggering. You have, obviously, not a clue what constitutes "safe" driving. It does seem that, in your world, if a speed limit is x, then it must be safe. You have no idea what constitutes safe overtaking, for example. No idea whatsoever.

First of all its a "GreeBo" there is no "n". Your attention to detail is staggering.

Secondly I have never once said that driving at the speed limit is safe driving. What I have said if you could read and understand is that driving above the limit is breaking the law.

Golferx wrote:

The roads of Ireland are a much more dangerous place with the likes of you on them. Most of us want safer roads, you are just calling for the rules to be obeyed. That is not the same thing.

No it is not the same thing. Random gob****es driving above the limit is also not going to make the roads safer. Again you missed the point.

Golferx wrote:

There are roads, in Ireland, where it is perfectly safe to drive at 200kph, there are others where it is dangerous to travel at 40kph. In your world, Greenbo, you cannot differentiate between the two. Our National Speed Limit used to be 60mph, now it's 80kph. What logic was used to make this change, and what lives have been saved because of this political change?

Have I ever said that its not possible to drive at 200kph on some roads?
No.
What I have said over and over again is that it is more dangerous and it is illegal. These are simple factual points, where is the breakdown of understanding?

Golferx wrote:

I drive in a safe manner, at all times. Unfortunately, me, and many others like me, are targets by our so-called guardians of Road Safety, unlike the real perpetrators of danger on our roads, who may, or may not, be exceeding the politician's derived speed limit.

You break laws that you dont like to follow.

Golferx wrote:

Here's hoping, Greenbo, you get caught doing something and are removed from the roads,

:rolleyes:

GreeBo

jmayo wrote:

Agree with all sentiments from Golferx and Astraboy.
Greebo can not be for real with a statement like
"Why would you want to overtake somebody doing 80kph ?"
Maybe because I would like to get where I am going sometime the same day?

Then please, by all means drive at 200kph and get yourself around a tree, quickly.

jmayo wrote:

According to your logic we should all drive in convoy.
Then if something happens you can mulitple the number of vehicles involved.

Yep, thats it. You got my point exactly.

craichoe

In .... convoy eh ?

Why don't you just car pool instead ...

Golferx

@GreenBo, your sole defence is behind the idiotic assumption that the speed limits are properly thought out and lead to safe driving. There is absolutely no thought given to the design of speed limits in our country and for someone like you to hide behind the defence of illegality is simply burying your head in the sand.

You fail to see how a good driver can make safe progress in our country by driving safely, regardless of speed limits. A very good driver would be able to negotiate our roads, anywhere in the country, without having to look at his/her car's speed or having to be distracted by having to look at the car's speedometer. However, for you, the simple fact of exceeding some arbitrary number lenders their activity illegal. You also fail to see that while a car might be doing 80kph, or even 100kph, on a stretch of road, the same car might prove to be a hell of a hindrance in twisty bits. Any driver is justified in overtaking any obstacle, if it is safe to do so. Careless driving is any driving action which causes any other driver, driving properly, to have to take avoidance action. This includes a failure to maintain sufficient progress. ( a fail item in your driving test)

Ireland is a State with an inordinate amount of Laws. The Gardai do not apply the Law even-handedly and are very selective in their application. It is this unfairness that upsets most motorists.

So Greenbo, care to define what makes a safe driver? Someone who is properly aware of all aspects of the environment, or just adhering within speed limits?

GreeBo

Golferx wrote:

@GreenBo,

Ok, you have just proved to me that you didnt even read my posts. If you had read them you would see that its not greeNbo. I explicitely pointed that out.If you cant notice that then Im not surprised you cannot noticeposted speed limits.

Golferx wrote:

your sole defence is behind the idiotic assumption that the speed limits are properly thought out and lead to safe driving.

Read the thread please. Then you might notice that I was the one who brought up the idioticly high speed limits such as on the way to Powerscourt.

Golferx wrote:

for someone like you to hide behind the defence of illegality is simply burying your head in the sand.

You are the one burying your head in the sand because you think its ok to break a law that you do not agree with. Do you pay your taxes? Do you think your taxes are too high? So why pay them, why not pay a lower percentage?

Golferx wrote:

You fail to see how a good driver can make safe progress in our country by driving safely, regardless of speed limits.

No I dont actually, but if they are breaking the law then they should be punished. Its a simple theory.

Golferx wrote:

A very good driver would be able to negotiate our roads, anywhere in the country, without having to look at his/her car's speed or having to be distracted by having to look at the car's speedometer.

Again if you read the posts in this thread I pointed out that a good derive shouldnt have to look at his speedo to see what speed he is doing.

Golferx wrote:

However, for you, the simple fact of exceeding some arbitrary number lenders their activity illegal.

You dont think breaking the law is doing something illegal?

Golferx wrote:

You also fail to see that while a car might be doing 80kph, or even 100kph, on a stretch of road, the same car might prove to be a hell of a hindrance in twisty bits.

Oh no, someone is hindering you. Where exactly are you going that is so important?

Golferx wrote:

Any driver is justified in overtaking any obstacle, if it is safe to do so.

Did I say it wasnt at any time?
I said that if you need to speed to overtake someone then either you are overtaking in an inappropriate place or you probably dont need to overtake them at all.

Golferx wrote:

Careless driving is any driving action which causes any other driver, driving properly, to have to take avoidance action.

Like driving up somones bumper to make them go faster?

Golferx wrote:

Ireland is a State with an inordinate amount of Laws. The Gardai do not apply the Law even-handedly and are very selective in their application. It is this unfairness that upsets most motorists.

So your argument is that X broke the law and he wasnt punished so Im going to break it aswell? Do you not think thats pretty childish attitude?

Golferx wrote:

So Greenbo, care to define what makes a safe driver? Someone who is properly aware of all aspects of the environment, or just adhering within speed limits?

No not just adhering to the limits, but that is certainly part of it.

Lets look at an example.
You are driving along a 1 lane road with a posted limit of 100kph. The person in front of you is doing 90 but you want to go faster so you overtake them on a straight section where you can see for a mile ahead.
Unfortunately for you someone coming the other direction is doing 200kph because they feel the straight section of the road warrants it.
You are now dead.
Do you still feel that people should be able break the limits if they feel they are too low?

The point is that if there are posted limits then everyone needs to stick to them otherwise it is more dangerous for everyone else on the road.

GTC

The issue would appear to be the speed camera, not overtaking.

At any rate, if you can't match the speed of 99% of the other traffic on a big main road, you should move into the hard shoulder to allow them freedom to overtake.

In the job, I am quite amazed how people will not yield or move over into the hard shoulder when a patrol car with blue lights flashing and siren sounding tries to make good progress to the scene of an accident.

Let me say unequivocally that slow drivers that do not allow other cars to overtake them when they have sufficient room to do so are one of the biggest dangers to road safety in Ireland. Frustrated drivers overtake them on bends and all kinds of bad places. And I have seen the results first hand. Some of the worst accidents I've been called to are because of slow drivers' bad manners.

People are unbelievably selfish on roads today, with their "I'm entitled to drive whatever way I please" attitude. You are obliged to drive with due care and attention and afford other drivers the opportunity to do the same, this includes driving at a good pace with other traffic and allowing others room to manoever, including allowing them to overtake you when you have sufficient room to move into the hard shoulder to allow them passage.

Victor

GTC wrote:

In the job, I am quite amazed how people will not yield or move over into the hard shoulder when a patrol car with blue lights flashing and siren sounding tries to make good progress to the scene of an accident.

How is the patrol car going to access the hard shoulder if you do this?

GreeBo

GTC wrote:

In the job, I am quite amazed how people will not yield or move over into the hard shoulder when a patrol car with blue lights flashing and siren sounding tries to make good progress to the scene of an accident.

If you were out patrolling for speeders (with a gun etc) would you pull someone for speeding as they were overtaking someone else?
What are the guidelines in this area?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GTC wrote:

At any rate, if you can't match the speed of 99% of the other traffic on a big main road, you should move into the hard shoulder to allow them freedom to overtake.

I think you're taking the Michael a bit here. We were always told that it is illegal to drive on the hard shoulder and you now advocate people move in to it to allow taffic pass. GTC? Me thinks not!

I.S.T.

Gwendolyn Helpful Mango wrote:

I think you're taking the Michael a bit here. We were always told that it is illegal to drive on the hard shoulder and you now advocate people move in to it to allow taffic pass. GTC? Me thinks not!

Actually the new Rules of the Road on page 60 state
"If a driver wants to allow a vehicle
behind them to overtake, they may
pull in to the hard shoulder briefly as
long as no pedestrians or cyclists are
already using it and no junctions or
entrances are nearby.

Mitch Connor

IrishSpeedTraps wrote:

Actually the new Rules of the Road on page 60 state
"If a driver wants to allow a vehicle
behind them to overtake, they may
pull in to the hard shoulder briefly as
long as no pedestrians or cyclists are
already using it and no junctions or
entrances are nearby.

as a follow up to that, i found this: http://www.ism.ie/advanceddriving_introduction.php#advanced_hard

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

IrishSpeedTraps wrote:

Actually the new Rules of the Road on page 60 state
"If a driver wants to allow a vehicle
behind them to overtake, they may
pull in to the hard shoulder briefly as
long as no pedestrians or cyclists are
already using it and no junctions or
entrances are nearby.

Thanks for that. They amend the rules but they never tell us older drivers about it.

jmayo

Greebo did I say drive at 200mph or 200kph?
I said drive at appropriate speed and overtake as quickly as possible.
As for your suggestion we should all drive in a convoy lest we overtake anybody that is slower, it shows how little you drive or else how little you pay attention while on the road.

When you end up with large convoy of cars stuck behind slow moving vehicles, after a few kms drivers (not just young male drivers either I hasen to add) eventually become impatient and that's when the problems arise.
Drivers then start taking chances overtaking and sometimes have to overtake multiple cars because thanks to the great drivers in the convoy there is no adequate space left between the cars in order to move into after overtaking one car.

The major issue here is why the county councils etc have not added overtaking lanes every 5 kms on primary routes. Of course their excuse is "we are building motorways".
Yeah when will the motorways to Castlebar or Sligo be open?
Just shortsightness, they build bypasses or put new stretches of road in but with no overtaking lanes. One of few examples of non-dual carriageway road added over last 10 years in west with overtaking lanes is the N4 to Sligo, between Boyle and Carrick. And that was added because there is a hill.

GreeBo

jmayo wrote:

Greebo did I say drive at 200mph or 200kph?
I said drive at appropriate speed

But who decides what appropriate? I thought it was the posted limit but you dont agree with sticking to the limit so why should they guy driving at 200 kph? Maybe he thinks that 1 mile of straight road is perfect for a quick 200kph spin?

jmayo wrote:

As for your suggestion we should all drive in a convoy lest we overtake anybody that is slower, it shows how little you drive or else how little you pay attention while on the road.

I suggested that where exactly?
You can overtake someone who is slower all you want but if you need to break the limit to do so then you should be done for breaking the limit.

jmayo wrote:

When you end up with large convoy of cars stuck behind slow moving vehicles, after a few kms drivers (not just young male drivers either I hasen to add) eventually become impatient and that's when the problems arise.
Drivers then start taking chances overtaking and sometimes have to overtake multiple cars because thanks to the great drivers in the convoy there is no adequate space left between the cars in order to move into after overtaking one car.

Its not the driver who chooses to drive under the limits fault that there are a convoy of idiots behind who dont know how to drive.

jmayo wrote:

why the county councils etc have not added overtaking lanes every 5 kms on primary routes.

I dont disagree that its ridiculous to not have 2 & 1 roads all over the country but that, in my opinion, doesnt give anyone to right to speed or worse bully someone else off the road.

Sandwich

GreeBo wrote:

First of all its a "GreeBo" there is no "n". Your attention to detail is staggering.

GreeBo, your inattention to detail is staggering.

GreeBo

Sandwich wrote:

GreeBo, your inattention to detail is staggering.

astraboy

GTC wrote:

People are unbelievably selfish on roads today, with their "I'm entitled to drive whatever way I please" attitude. You are obliged to drive with due care and attention and afford other drivers the opportunity to do the same, this includes driving at a good pace with other traffic and allowing others room to manoever, including allowing them to overtake you when you have sufficient room to move into the hard shoulder to allow them passage.

Well said sir!:) A bit of manners from most road users would not go astray. If people like greebo want to drive at 80 the whole time fine, but if I can make progress safely then leave me at it! I have had cars speed up on me on the straight parts of roads and slow right down again, leaving me little opportunity to overtake. Its very fustrating.

@ Greebo, no one is denying breaking the speed limit is breaking the law, but you are clinging to this point like someone from a sinking ship to a life buoy for the last 9 pages. It would be nice to have you comment on the other points people have bought up instead of bashing us over the head with "its the law" etc etc. We know its the law! It doese'nt make it infallible, and it dosent mean it is suited to all drivers at all times in all situations. You seem to recognize this but fail to then make the logical conclusion that people often break it because it fails to look reasonable. I(or I'm sure most people) have no problem following or keeping reasonable laws.

Sandwich

astraboy wrote:

Well said sir!:)
@ Greebo, ...You seem to recognize this but fail to then make the logical conclusion that people often break it because it fails to look reasonable. I(or I'm sure most people) have no problem following or keeping reasonable laws.

I (somewhat reluctantly as I agree he is a bit wearing) have to support Greebo on this one. Astraboy, a law applies and must be observed by all - not just those who consider it a 'reasonable' one. If people only observed the laws they considered reasonable then you would have lawless anarchy. If you saw another driver doing 250kph would you accept her explanation that, in her opinion, she was driving at a 'reasonable' speed, even if it wasnt in your own opinion?

GreeBo

Sandwich wrote:

I (somewhat reluctantly as I agree he is a bit wearing) have to support Greebo on this one. Astraboy, a law applies and must be observed by all - not just those who consider it a 'reasonable' one. If people only observed the laws they considered reasonable then you would have lawless anarchy. If you saw another driver doing 250kph would you accept her explanation that, in her opinion, she was driving at a 'reasonable' speed, even if it wasnt in your own opinion?

A little tear just rolled down my cheek. (Not that cheek!)
Finally somone appreciates what happens if people can pick and choose what laws to follow and what laws to break.

@astraboy, I actually dont toddle along at 80kph the whole time, I am usually pretty much bang on the limit but I dont go over, it blatently ignoring the posted limits.
Oh and golferx doesnt think its illegal to speed:rolleyes:

Golferx wrote:

However, for you, the simple fact of exceeding some arbitrary number lenders their activity illegal.

Lots of the limits seem stupidly slow but there are also those that are stupidly fast, all we can do is choose to go slower than the limits as otherwise you are breaking the law.
As a famous philosopher once said, "if you dont like it, go to Russia!"

GTC

GreeBo wrote:

If you were out patrolling for speeders (with a gun etc) would you pull someone for speeding as they were overtaking someone else?
What are the guidelines in this area?

this will obviously vary from garda to garda. Some will allow excess speed for the amount of time it takes for you to overtake. If you keep speeding after the overtake then you may well be chased.

GTC

Victor wrote:

How is the patrol car going to access the hard shoulder if you do this?

I'm obviously referring to single lane roads.

EDIT: Patrol cars would use the hard shoulder for driving only on motorways and dual carraigeways. Hope that clears it up a bit