Right of Garda to drive patrol in private estate

dj_wizz

Hypothetically speaking - Does a Garda have the right to drive patrol in to a private estate, ie not council run or managed put private build and managed?

slumped

Can the postman?

Can your mum?

Can the Fire Brigade?

Silly question!

Emergency services should be able to drive in any estate, private or council run.

Sully

I dont see why not.

"We cant attend to the robbery in that estate Mam, its a private estate."

Seems like a weird question.

seamus

Private estates are not out of the jurisdiction of the Gardai in this country.

There may be a case to say that a Garda who enters private land without prior cause could be charged with trespassing. However, are you talking about an estate with multiple homes and families, or an estate in terms of big fields, walls and horses?

maidhc

Sully wrote:

I dont see why not.

"We cant attend to the robbery in that estate Mam, its a private estate."

Seems like a weird question.

It is a good question. I suspect if it is a public place (even if private property, just a place where the public have access), they may patrol. If however it is not a public place...e.g. a walled gated estate, then they should not have any right of entry unless they have a warrant, see a crime being comitted, or the multitude of other reasons set out in statute.

seamus

maidhc wrote:

It is a good question. I suspect if it is a public place (even if private property, just a place where the public have access), they may patrol. If however it is not a public place...e.g. a walled gated estate, then they should not have any right of entry unless they have a warrant, see a crime being comitted, or the multitude of other reasons set out in statute.

I had a brief search, and although the Consitution istelf prevents you from entering a persons dwelling, I couldn't find anything which otherwise prevents the Gardai (or indeed anyone) from entering someone else's property.
All I could find was:

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT, 1994 SECTION 13 wrote:

13.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person, without reasonable excuse, to trespass on any building or the curtilage thereof in such a manner as causes or is likely to cause fear in another person.

I could be missing something big, but is "dwelling" meant to include a house/home and it's "curitlage", or just the building in which a person resides?

Or is the issue of trespass covered by Common Law?

maidhc

seamus wrote:

I could be missing something big, but is "dwelling" meant to include a house/home and it's "curitlage", or just the building in which a person resides?

Dwelling is within the 4 walls of a persons house. It doesn't include the curtillage, nor does it include an office or a hotel bedroom, unless perhaps you are Richard Harris.

Trespass is covered by common law, but a lot of the powers of the gardaí to are in the Road Traffic Acts and a miscellany of Criminal Law Acts.

johnnyskeleton

seamus wrote:

I had a brief search, and although the Consitution istelf prevents you from entering a persons dwelling, I couldn't find anything which otherwise prevents the Gardai (or indeed anyone) from entering someone else's property.
All I could find was:

I could be missing something big, but is "dwelling" meant to include a house/home and it's "curitlage", or just the building in which a person resides?

Or is the issue of trespass covered by Common Law?

My understanding, and I may very well be mistaken, is that if a garda is invited onto private property or has a warrant to enter that property or if he has a reasonable suspicion that a person who has committed an offence has enter onto that property, he may enter that property.

However, he cannot merely patrol around. When gardai are on patrol, I think they have to stick to public places unless one of the above circumstaces is present.

It is common law powers. However, if there is a public right of way over private land, then it I think it would be unreasonable to expect a gardai to ask permission to go there.

These are common law powers, and I would respectfully suggest that you have mis-stated it somewhat; it is not a question of finding something to stop the gardai entering a premises, rather it is whether they have a power to do so, because the gardai can only act based on a statutory or common law power.

Common law trespass is generally enough to stop people entering other people's property without permission.

dj_wizz

Thank you to everyone for your answers specially 'johnnyskeleton', indeed the question should have been as Johnny suggests if they have a power to do this, I actually agree as I posed this question for a friend who insisted that they did not have a right to patrol a private estate which would be a public right of way

seamus

I don't think I mis-stated anything
I was simply commenting on what I found, and adding more questions, not giving any actual authoritative stance

maidhc wrote:

I suspect if it is a public place (even if private property, just a place where the public have access), they may patrol.

This seems quite reasonable. Does anyone know if this is covered by precedent, statute or common law?

CLADA

Define a public place:

Under the road traffic act it is: any street, road, or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

So how private is the estate?

johnnyskeleton

seamus wrote:

I don't think I mis-stated anything
I was simply commenting on what I found, and adding more questions, not giving any actual authoritative stance

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you were in any way wrong. I for my part was suggesting that it is not the case that where a garda enters onto private property it is legal unless there is something to the contrary; rather it is illegal unless it is done pursuant to some garda power.

I suppose it is unlikely that you will find a reported case of trespass like this, but that is indicative of the bigger problem which is that people generally don't follow it up when the gardai step out of line other than in criminal matters.

The legal and constitutional safeguards are, in my opinion, there to protect ordinary citizens from being needlessly hassled by the gardai as much as they are to protect the rights of the accused.

As regards criminal law, there is DPP v. Forbes [1994] 2 IR 542 where at 548:

O'Flaherty J wrote:

Section 49, sub-s. 6 of the [Road Traffic] Act provides that a member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant a person who in the member's opinion is committing or has committed an offence under the section. The offence, of course, must be committed in a public place but provided the garda does not breach any constitutional or legal right of another, he is entitled to go on other property to effect an arrest. Here there is no question that the gardaí were trespassers. It must be regarded as axiomatic that any householder gives an implied authority to a member of the garda to come onto the forecourt of his premises to see to the enforcement of the law or prevent a breach thereof. It will be clear that this case is not concerned with any question of entering a dwellinghouse and, therefore, there is not in the instant case any question of any form of implied waiver of any constitutional right. Further, like any implied authority, it is an implication which the evidence may, on occasion, rebut. Clearly, in this case the gardaí were acting in the execution of their duties.(emphases added)

However, this scenario is where there is a reason for the entry based on a statutory power and where the garda is chasing someone in flagrante delicto. A garda must have actual permission to be on private property, a statutory/court power, or else the implied authority to carry out his duties. I think that carrying out his duties in this sense mean that he entered in response to an immediate situation, and I don't think patrolling would be covered. The gardai could easily ask the owners of a private estate if they can have permission to patrol and in reality I think this permission would be easily given (especially if there are problems with juvenile delinquents). But unless they have a reason to enter onto private property, they shouldn't be there.

seamus wrote:

Does anyone know if this is covered by precedent, statute or common law?

Gardai are citizens too. They can pass through a laneway if it is a public right of way, they can go into a shop to buy the paper, and they have implied permission to enter onto the curtilage/driveway of a house to ring the doorbell, because every citizen has implied permission to go up to the door of another's private property.

Garda powers only come into play when they do something which a citizen cannot. In the original scenario, the garda wants to enter onto private property. If there is a public right of way he can follow that right of way. But if there is no public right of way, he can only enter with permission or based on one of his powers.