EPT Hand: Antonious vs AJunglen

Jesus Wept

sikes wrote:

that is in agreement with my definition.

It's not.

Because you believe that when you put your blind out you are 'making a bet', and I believe you are putting your blind out, you're not making a bet, making a bet implies you have an option and there is a reason behind it.

You have no option and the reason behind it is the dealer tells you that you must.



Am I alone on this?

Do other people consider when the preflop action goes 'Raise, Re-raise, ReReRaise, Call' that it has been 'four bet'.?

To me, the first bet is the first voluntary bet put into the pot.



---

Here is the clincher to my argument, If I raise preflop, why would you not consider that '3 betting', what about the small blind?????

sikes

The-Rigger wrote:

Here is the clincher to my argument, If I raise preflop, why would you not consider that '3 betting', what about the small blind?????

because the small blind isn't the size of the minimal bet, its like calling allin you aren't raising.

this is a great thread, i think it should be stickied, so much content and so enlightening!

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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Jesus Wept

Gholimoli wrote:

I didn’t mean to be condescending at all.if I came across that way I do apologies.

Likewise, I don't like when people share grudges on here for no reason and it destroys a decent debate, which I am learning new things from. Even If I don't
agree with someones view on a situation, its still good to see what they think about the game/situation.

Gholimoli wrote:

If Adam is going to fold to a bet you can be almost certain he is folding to a shove.

I think his range of calling a shove is a lot wider than his range of continuing in the hand if PA makes a bet.

Gholimoli wrote:

Calling there with A high is horrific I think TBH.

I think its one of those situations where even if you think your Ace high is might likely be ahead, it's just not worth it

Gholimoli wrote:

The fact that PA does not want attention is irrelevant.

I think it is a big factor, PA has definied his range consideribly, and definied that there is a large chance it isn't much ahead of Ace high.

Gholimoli wrote:

that’s why calling with A high there is crap IMO.

It's funny that some people think it is such a high level of poker, I don't think the bet or the call were great, but there is thinking behind both. Actually I think they both played pretty badly.

5starpool was right in saying that when poker gets deep, it often resembles donkey type play (not his words), because they are both aggresive and it sometimes just becomes a case of who can make the other guy put the brakes on first.

Goodluck2me

The-Rigger wrote:

Here is the clincher to my argument, If I raise preflop, why would you not consider that '3 betting', what about the small blind?????

the minimum bet has to be the size of the BB! in USA you may have a point..i think. i also think 3 bet should be the third raise not the second one.

mewso

Gholi how the heck is pushing increasing FE without knowing your opponent? He may respect a 2/3 pot bet far more and be far more likely to fold to it than the push. Or am I confused as usual? Are we to point blank assume that pushing results in an opponent folding more than a sizable bet every time??

sikes

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Joke?

remind me never to bluff you!

Jesus Wept

goodluck2me wrote:

the minimum bet has to be the size of the BB! in USA you may have a point..i think. i also think 3 bet should be the third raise not the second one.

sikes wrote:

[Originally Posted by wikipedia
The blinds is a term used to describe a number of forced bets posted by players to the left of the dealer button in flop-style poker games. The number of blinds is usually two, but can be one or three.

As Sikes posted earlier 'the blinds is a term used to describe a number of forced bets posted by players...'

Blinds been plural would include more than the big blind, so it would count as a bet.


Your defintion is flawed!

sikes

The-Rigger wrote:

As Sikes posted earlier the blinds is a term used to describe a number of forced bets posted by players.

Blinds been plural would include more than the big blind, so it would count as a bet.


Your defintion is flawed!

the BB is the minimal bet size. i couldnt be arsed arguning, however i do feel we should go off on another tangent for a laugh.

Why is there a burn card?

Jesus Wept

sikes wrote:

the BB is the minimal bet size. i couldnt be arsed arguning, however i do feel we should go off on another tangent for a laugh.

Why is there a burn card?

Throwing in the towel?

It's not personal sikes, but I've debunked your ridiculas outlandish claims!!


By this logic, the small blind should be forced to put out a full big blind, as he is putting out an inappropriate bet!

sikes

The-Rigger wrote:

Throwing in the towel?

It's not personal sikes, but I've debunked your ridiculas outlandish claims!!

oh i know its not personal dont worry! Youre still wrong!

nicnicnic

The-Rigger wrote:

lol. It was probably 9th level thinking nic, don't try to work it out or you will take a fit.

this is where i live, its a lonely existence

Jesus Wept

sikes wrote:

oh i know its not personal dont worry! Youre still wrong!

wrong? lol, but I've made so many good argument, the small blind one just came to me in a flash of inspiration and seals the deal!

I am correct.

However, it has been just me and you thrashing this out, I'd appreciate if other people would offer their opinion (especially if they are correct and realise that Sikes is confused! )

Bandara

PA gets himself into trouble with his over bets quite a lot, and he goes a bit nuts when he gets caught out with them.

The last 15 seconds are a classic, Brunson shuts him up bigtime.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vQukgklLKtI

Jesus Wept

Hammertime wrote:

PA gets himself into trouble with his over bets quite a lot, and he goes a bit nuts when he gets caught out with them.

The last 15 seconds are a classic, Brunson shuts him up bigtime.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vQukgklLKtI

absolutely love that clip, always have.

"we're playing poker not solitare"

nicnicnic

I've been thinking about this hand and honestly all I can come up with is that its pretty standard.

firstly buy in is standard enough for these guys

PA (serial raiser) bets with 5c3c standard for him

other dude raises with AJ (standard, well I'm sure he knows pa is raising with any two)

pa thinks your man's playing-back with any two because he knows pa is a any two better asks a question by re-raising which is while not standard is not quite ground breaking.

other figures this and calls (push is definitely the play here for me but he said he was trapping pa )

Flop

pa flops a draw and pushes 34k into a 20k pot standard

other dude figures his A high is good and calls ,ballys but he goes with his read

all in all pretty standard for two agressive players if you ask me

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Goodluck2me

yeha good clip,the All in was such a terribl bet though imo. i dont care what level they are at, its crap, its unnecessary, Doyles call was loose and im pretty sure he called for a race but you cant blame him. Partick was master of his own downfall.

Goodluck2me

nicnicnic wrote:

I've been thinking about this hand and honestly all I can come up with is that its pretty standard.

firstly buy in is standard enough for these guys

PA (serial raiser) bets with 5c3c standard for him

other dude raises with AJ (standard, well I'm sure he knows pa is raising with any two)

pa thinks your man's playing-back with any two because he knows pa is a any two better asks a question by re-raising which is while not standard is not quite ground breaking.

other figures this and calls (push is definitely the play here for me but he said he was trapping pa )

Flop

pa flops a draw and pushes 34k into a 20k pot standard

other dude figures his A high is good and calls ,ballys but he goes with his read

all in all pretty standard for two agressive players if you ask me

that cloud 9, ie 9ths level thinking sure is a standard place nicky!

LuckyLloyd

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delanec8

goodluck2me wrote:

yeha good clip,the All in was such a terribl bet though imo. i dont care what level they are at, its crap, its unnecessary, Doyles call was loose and im pretty sure he called for a race but you cant blame him. Partick was master of his own downfall.

It was at the crapshoot stage of WPT final tables. Doyle had about 13 BBs and, considering the antes aswell, I think Patrik's move in was standard, and in Doyles shoes i would have open pushed anyway with 33. Pretty funny clip tho all the same.

I'm not trying to start another ridiculous debate. This thread has been pointless enough:)

nicnicnic

goodluck2me wrote:

that cloud 9, ie 9ths level thinking sure is a standard place nicky!

hand probably reached a third level ie hethinksithinkhethinks with a stubborn call on the end

now 9th level is

hethinksithinkhethinkshethinksithinkhethinkshethinksithinkhethinks

and tbh i don't think any of these two jokers came anywhere this level of thought in this hand

Goodluck2me

delanec8 wrote:

It was at the crapshoot stage of WPT final tables. Doyle had about 13 BBs and, considering the antes aswell, I think Patrik's move in was standard, and in Doyles shoes i would have open pushed anyway with 33. Pretty funny clip tho all the same.

I'm not trying to start another ridiculous debate. This thread has been pointless enough:)

ah yeah just seen the blinds were like 250,000 or something. that makes neither play so bad. i dont like doyles limp with the 33 though.

nicnicnic

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Nick, PA only has one club. He did not flop a flushdraw. If he did, you might think differently about the shove..

Edited reply,

he flopped a straight draw and basically continuation bet for all his stack

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Junglen's pre - flop is not standard. It's bad. And his call is not standard at all.

well against a serial anytwo raiser he is probably good however i think if he figures he is good then the push is the best option pre flop

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

delanec8 wrote:

This thread has been pointless enough:)

this is the longest thread that i have ever started and as such feel the need to defend its very valuable contriubtion to the forum

I think i might add a poll. Not sure what about yet tho

delanec8

sikes wrote:

this is the longest thread that i have ever started and as such feel the need to defend its very valuable contriubtion to the forum

I think i might add a poll. Not sure what about yet tho

Make it about "3 betting vrs reraising" and ill reconsider my stance on this thread

phantom_lord

nicnicnic wrote:

LuckyLloyd wrote:

well against a serial anytwo raiser he is probably good however i think if he figures he is good then the push is the best option pre flop

Exactly

not if he puts pa on some form of air and expects him to shove when checked to and for his a-high to be goot....

Gholimoli

musician wrote:

Gholi how the heck is pushing increasing FE without knowing your opponent? He may respect a 2/3 pot bet far more and be far more likely to fold to it than the push. Or am I confused as usual? Are we to point blank assume that pushing results in an opponent folding more than a sizable bet every time??

right back on this .
ofcourse knowing your opponent is key here.
the stack sizes here are in such away that any bet from PA committs him to the pot.
also Adam is meant to be aggro.
aggro play will often make moves when they think there is room to make one.
a 2/3 pot bet would give him this room.
PA cant risk this.

gilmour

going off topic here but i've just noticed that Andy Black is the chipleader in the EPT grand final with less than 100 players left. Surely at the rate he obtains chipleads he's bound to win one of these events sooner or later, this one wouldnt be a bad one to win. €1.8mil for the winner.

gilmour

i just had to bump this thread for Adam Junglens post/trip report/hand analysis over at 2+2

At the conclusion of my latest trip report post I mentioned how I anticipated a “big play” from Patrik in the near future. Ha…little did I know I would soon be involved in “one of the sickest hands/most talked about hands” in recent history.

The tournament finally reached the ante level, although it was fairly small; being 150/300/25. Regardless, it made opening pots more profitable, and most certainly opened our (Patrik and I) pre-flop raising range.

By this time hardly anyone besides Patrik or I was opening pots. It was always humorous when we were in the blinds together. Action would fold to a player in LP. He’d look at his cards, chips, and the players in the blinds. After 10 seconds of hesitation he’d fold. A small percentage of the time they’d open the pot, but with an unusually large (7-10xbb) pre-flop raise.

It reminded me of when I played in the Aussie Millions and Joe Hachem sat to my right near the bubble. Everyone at the table was terrified of us and folded.

This time was different though.

This time there was no bubble pressure.

Just Patrik and I

Patrik’s stack was hovering around 35k, when UTG+1 (very tight player) opened for 1.5k.

Action folded to Patrik and he asked how much UTG+1 had left. It was about 10k. I forget the amount Patrik raise, but it was clear he was putting him in. I believe it was around 7-10k.

UTG+1 tanked and folded

---

The only reason I note this hand is because of what took place the following hand….

UTG (player who folded last hand) opens for 2k (with about 8k left). Action folded to Patrik. He raised enough to put the player all-in, AGAIN.

This time UTG called, and showed KK. Patrik showed JJ.

The end result is Patrik ending the hand with 45k, and in the game of poker, four jacks beats a pair of kings.

I felt sick, and seriously wanted to puke. It felt like some prank a friend would pull on me. I was half-waiting for gobbo to jump from under the table and say

“JUST KIDDING”

With the half creepy/half funny grin he occasionally gives me.

---

I was happy to see the tournament was nearing the end of the level. Ending the 150/300/25 level meant 2 important things:

1) 200/400/50; a much profitable level was nearing
2) Day one was near conclusion. I could go to sleep soon, knowing Antonius wouldn’t be sitting to my right the next day.

These are the last two thoughts I had as Patrik opened the pot for 1k from the CO. I looked down at AJo. I had been flat calling and playing smaller pots with Patrik, but vs. Patrik’s range I was willing to play a big pot in position.

I contemplated and re-raised to 3.2k

The blinds folded and action was back to Patrik.

As Patrik was thinking, I used basic logic to deduct he would 4-bet here with a wide range and I was likely ahead.

Let me take back that last statement.

It’s not basic logic, just intelligent multiple-level thinking. I know Patrik’s opening any 2 from the CO. The players in the blinds were also very tight.

Patrik is a smart man; he damn well knows that I know this. He also knows that I’m capable of 3-betting here with a wide range.

That being said, Patrik put in another raise, making it 9k total.

What he didn’t know, was that I knew everything he knew.

I contemplated moving in or calling. I thought for about 2 minutes, and during that time folding hardly came into my mind. I thought AJ was far too ahead of his range to fold. I felt as though moving in was exploitable, spewy, and too big of a bet. I also rarely play AA or KK like that, which is what I wanted Patrik to think I had.

I decided to call. Patrik’s pre-flop action put him in a very bad spot (34.5k with about 20k in the pot, going to the flop, out of position), and I expected him to check/fold most flops. My pre-flop action looks incredibly strong. I have AA or KK most of the time here.

By the time I called 5.8k more there was a HUGE crowd gathered around my table. The rest of the tournament was on break; my table was the only one with a hand still in progress.

The flop came Q42 with 2 clubs.

I thought to myself “Well, I still think I have the best hand.”

I pondered of ways to play when/if Patrik checked or bet 10-14k.

Roughly 40 seconds go by, and Patrik says “All-in”


HUH?!??!!

I usually know what I’m going to do before it happens. My actions are based on my intuition/memory/sense/logic and have made me a lot of money.

At the very moment when Patrik moved in, I wasn’t sure what to do. I told myself when the flop came down “I’m still good,” and everything inside of me told me I was still good.

I asked how much the bet was

“34,475” the dealer said.

I looked down at my stack, slid out a stack of 10k, then 20k. Then I tossed 4475 on top and looked at Patrik. If I called and lost I’m left with about 15k. If I won I’d be over 100k. If I folded I’d have about 50k; still a great stack.

My mind was racing.

“What the hell?”

“This can’t possibly be a value bet”

“Holy [censored], look at all these people”

“I’m ahead”

“53, 46, or garbage, right?”

“All my friends are gonna laugh at me”


I didn’t actually say the above quotes, they were thoughts.

I did however mumble

“Everyone’s gonna laugh when I turn over this hand.”

I couldn’t possibly call though, right? That’s suicide. I’d have to be an absolute madman to call. Several minutes passed, during all of which I was torn. It felt like a sick, sick torture chamber. I could’ve gotten out at any time and just folded, but my brain wouldn’t let me.

Somehow, someway, my arms push in the chips to call.

During “calling process” I kept my eyes on Patrik. He kept the same facial expression, and then nodded and said

“Nice call”

Well, “nice call,” doesn’t mean Ace-high is good when you call 35k on the flop of Q42. I flipped over my hand, with my eyes on Patrik the entire time.

Patrik’s expression is something I’m going to remember until the day I die. The look of defeat in his whitened face was beautiful.

He showed 53o

I stood up as the dealer dealt the turn. The crowd was so confused at what was going on. The only other person in the room that had the slightest idea at what just happened was Patrik.

Turn was an 8

The confused crowd was going crazy. It took them 30 seconds to process Antonius was all-in on the turn for 100k with the nut-low, and I had called 35k with Ace high.

River was an Ace, giving Patrik the nuts.

I sighed, sat down and handed Patrik the exact amount I owed him. During the time it took for the dealer to get the change handled, my mind had processed what just happened:

I just made the greatest call of my life, in the biggest tournament of my life, vs. the greatest player in the world and got unlucky.

I felt fantastic

My reads were dead-on. I had been outplaying Patrik all day, and this hand put it over the top. I made the right decisions and didn’t care about the results, because I had no control over them. There’s no reason to get upset over something you don’t have control over.

I said “nice hand sir,” clearly, to a very bashful Patrik Antonius.

He responded:

“That hand….was one of the sickest hands I’ve ever seen.”

“You….you play amazing….”

Patrik’s voice was very shaken. After Patrik said “you play amazing” he sort of hesitated and stopped. It sounded as if he’d never said anything like that to anybody in his life.

I never wanted to leave the table. We were on break, but I sat there the entire time it took Patrik to stack my chips. Eventually I got up, and walked across the stage area, where there weren’t too many people. I relaxed on the stairs and some friends approached me. Some had heard about the hand, and some hadn’t. I retold, what I would eventually retell seemingly thousands of times.

When I arrived back to the table from break, the reporters were still going crazy. They looked at me as if I were allowed to do anything. When a player takes a bad beat you usually give them space and don’t bother them.

I’m different.

I sat back down with about 3 minutes left in the break. I saw the reporters were talking about the hand, trying to make some logic out of it. I smiled and looked over at them. I told them “ha, it’s ok. You can ask me about it, I don’t mind.”

I explained “it’s just a tournament. Make good decisions, and try not to let luck bother you. Patrik and I are playing on a very high level, and I got unlucky. I’ve played a lot of tournaments in my life, and will play a lot more. I think it’d be stupid for me to get overly upset over this hand.”

“Patrik’s bet was designed to create as much fold equity as possible. I think he should have re-raised more pre-flop, but besides that I think he played it fine.”

When the tournament started back up again, Patrik didn’t show up. It took him a few minutes but he finally did show up. We talked about the hand, and started talking about other hands. I would later find out Patrik said he intended to check/fold the flop, as my pre-flop line was incredibly strong. He said he thought I had KK after I called his pf raise. He was "comfortable after 5 seconds had past and I hadn't called," because I obviously would've called by then with AA or KK.

I ended up busting with about 30min left in the day (just like the PCA). I thought I played very well the entire tournament, and am satisfied with my decisions. I learned a lot from Patrik, and had a lot of fun on the trip.




I sincerely hope everyone enjoyed reading this. I’m somewhat hesitant to post all of it, but I enjoy writing too much to pass up on it. I was also likely going to write it out for myself anyways. I could probably talk about "the" hand for another 5 pages, but am leaving you here.

-Adam Junglen

i swear to god i nearly vomited in my mouth reading that

phantom_lord

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9834076&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD


lol at him leveling pa!

phantom_lord

lol! great minds eh.



what a nerd:



This bit's great:

At this point my stack was now approaching 30,000 and the table was visibly hesitant to play pots with me. I was feeling incredibly confident. I forget how, but the player to my right was eliminated. The seat remained empty for about an orbit when it happened….

“Is this table 15?”

“Yes sir”

I looked up and I saw him.



Patrik Antonius

For those who are unaware, Patrik is likely the best NLH player in the world. He is an absolute monster. Patrik carries an indescribable aura with him at all times. I was fortunate to have position on him, but was obviously not happy with the recent development.

There is one person on the face of this Earth that I fear. He just took a seat to my right, and had a stack around 25k.

TheSpaniard

Thats one of the most enjoyable pieces I've ever read.

Ste05

Nice post by Adam, if a little self-agrandising (sp??) but still nice thought process for a tourney donk

Hectorjelly

Theres a couple of points I want to make, i havent read this page or Aj's self analyis.

First off I totally disagree with most of what has been said in this thread (respectively of course),

1) Moving in preflop is not the answer. In fact I think given the stack sizes it wouldnt be great at all. PA makes it 9k, but theres 36 more or so to go in on each size. If AJ pushes then PA cannot put that 36 in badly. He may fold a small pair but thats the only mistake he can makes. Its a bad risk-reward situation. I dont think moving all in would be that bad, but its not a good spot at all. There seems to be some confusion as to who was in position. But either way I think in isolation calling here is better than pushing if you feel you enjoy any type of advantage over PA, which AJ did, for this hand anyway.

2) A few people have agreed that PA betting 15k is much better than pushing. This is unmitigated nonsense. These are two top level players, its a bit different than normal hands posted here. Both would be aware that if PA bets 15k he is committed to the hand if he flopped anything, so pushing is almost effectively the same, in fact stronger because he probably never does it with a hand that is drawing dead to a pair if called. To get back to the main point, if this was a 2/4 online hand then yeah betting is better than pushing. Thats because a push tends to be a draw and a bet a made hand. But in the context of a high stakes tournament with 2 good players, that doesnt apply at all.

3) I really doubt that AJ was sitting there thinking of the sponsorship deals that would come his way if he correctly called with ace high. In fact he faced a tough decision where he was trying to decide if he should call or not. He felt he was ahead but since he can never be that far ahead, he was perhaps temped to fold given that it was a tournament etc. After a while he made the right decision

4)I think both players played it great. Obv PAs bluff was called so in some way he made a mistake, but everyone will sometimes have their bluffs called. Nearly every other player in the world would of folded at some stage in the hand, so to say he played it bad is misleading I feel.

mewso

Yes indeed Daragh but then I think everyone else here could have benefited slightly from knowing PA was in the cutoff and Mr. Plays Amazing on the Button instead of as originally reported. i.e. PA on button and Mr. Plays Amazing in the SB. I think it makes a difference.
That post from 2plus2 paints a great picture of an ego so bloated it has now launched into the stratosphere.

Goodluck2me

i thought it was a good call after reading all of that, i dont think he was overly boastful/vein about it, he told it like it was. good piece.

Goodluck2me

musician wrote:

That post from 2plus2 paints a great picture of an ego so bloated it has now launched into the stratosphere.

ive read the paragraph here but not on 2+2 whihc may be different but i disagree with this. he is telling it as he saw it and i think it was one of the best calls ive seen for all the reasons aforementioned. Look at Cunninghams call with Ace high v Gold at the FT of the WSOP.(edit- only similarity was that i) it was a tournament ii) ace high iii)high level stakes.)

Ste05

I think I basically said what HJ just said in a longer winded less effective manner.

mewso

I just love the "we think on several levels". If ye do then where does it end. He calls hoping for PA to put him on KK because if he pushes it's obviously a weaker hand. PA said afterwards he had him on something like that or did he??? He pushed after all. so at what level did he stop.

"He is calling to make it look like he has KK but then he knows that I would know he would call to make it look like KK so maybe he has really got KK. But wait a minute he knows I know he is a super-engineered advanced poker player so he knows I know that he would call to make it look like KK but he also knows I would know he might realise that I would know this and do the same thing with KK for real so maybe he doesn't have KK+ at all. So taking it another level further he may really have KK...to hell with this I'm all-in. If he has it he has it."

mewso

goodluck2me wrote:

ive read the paragraph here but not on 2+2 whihc may be different but i disagree with this. he is telling it as he saw it and i think it was one of the best calls ive seen for all the reasons aforementioned. Look at Cunninghams call with Ace high v Gold at the FT of the WSOP.(edit- only similarity was that i) it was a tournament ii) ace high iii)high level stakes.)

I'm not talking about the call at all here. It's the mindset at work here that really amazes me. Me and Patrick are on 15 levels yada yada. The Emperor is officially naked and swivelling on an upturned stool.

Goodluck2me

musician wrote:

The Emperor is officially naked and swivelling on an upturned stool.

i think there is a bit on this all right - i also think 4th is the max level.

Jesus Wept

I agree with Gilmour, his report made me want to hurl.


He made a decent call, I have no problem with it, but Antonious made it easy on him.

The first reply on 2+2 is 'Adam you should write a book' :eek:

HectorJelly wrote:

Thats because a push tends to be a draw and a bet a made hand. But in the context of a high stakes tournament with 2 good players, that doesnt apply at all.

hmmm, surely it can apply as Antonious pushed and he was on a draw.

I mean, sure he could be pushing in saying 'people normally do this with a draw, therefore I don't have a draw', or he could just have a draw/air, there really aren't that many layers to it.

In conclusion, it's an ok call, in the end it was still just a race, and your calling allin for for a race.



Here is a good response from a random 2+2'er

'Put another way, if this call was against a random LAG (assume same hand history and stack sizes), who is playing well and who wouldn't be at your table in less than an hour it would have almost immediately been criticized. However, the call was made against the male poster boy of 2+2 at a big tourney, so it's "wow, tremendous, you're awesome, write a novel and can't wait to see you at a big final table.'

This sums it up well, its one of those situations where him calling doesn't really suit anyone, it doesnt suit antonious as he has a 47% chance to win if called, it doesn't really suit him, as he has a 53% chance to win,
what good is it them flipping coins considering Adam considers to be both great players?

If he is so confident that Antonious is weak,he can move in preflop and add 9k (nearly +20%?) to his stack with little risk. They both move on and progress by taking chips from other weaker opponents.

If he wants to call allin for a 50-50 on the flop, while running the risk that there is a possilibility he is drawing very thin, then I've no problem with it, I don't mind the call. But the way Adam talks about it, he seems to think him and Antonious are redefining the game.

Get over yourself :eek:

Hectorjelly

It may make for a good joke, but the play between two excellent players is going to be at a much higher level than normal hands posted here.

The reason PA pushed rather than check folded is because he actually flopped quite a strong holding. If he thinks there is a good chance the other guy has a big pair, then it makes sense to give up most of the time. To play optiumly he should bluff something like 15% of the time, and give up 85% of the time. Since he actually flopped a relative monster it makes sense to push/bet this time, and likewise any time he flops a holding with a good pot equity (like a pair and a gutshot or better), as this will roughly correspond with the 15 % of the time he needs to bluff in this spot.

Hectorjelly

The-Rigger wrote:

hmmm, surely it can apply as Antonious pushed and he was on a draw.

not only that, but he had 35o for 5 high. So from now on any time antonius pushes he should have exactly that holding. Thanks for the info!

Jesus Wept

The-Rigger wrote:

hmmm, surely it can apply as Antonious pushed and he was on a draw.

Hectorjelly wrote:

not only that, but he had 35o for 5 high. So from now on any time antonius pushes he should have exactly that holding. Thanks for the info!

hmm, I didn't state or imply that.

Is sarcasm your best weapon or just your current one
Honestly I'm not up for mud slinging, but I found that post fairly unhelpful

I've been led to believe that you are one of the more insightful posters in the poker forum, don't let me down!

Hectorjelly wrote:

Since he actually flopped a relative monster it makes sense to push/bet this time

I wouldn't consider flopping an open draw a monster, I understand its a decent flop considering you have rereraised your 53o preflop. I think
betting is fine, I think shoving in for an overbet into the pot on such a dry flop against someone you realise has some thought process is a blunder.

Hectorjelly

The-Rigger wrote:

hmm, I didn't state or imply that.

Is sarcasm your best weapon or just your current one
Honestly I'm not up for mud slinging, but I found that post fairly unhelpful

I've been led to believe that you are one of the more insightful posters in the poker forum, don't let me down!

My point was that in the context of good poker players, a shove will often be a made hand, and a reraise a draw. Good players arent easily read so the normal orthodoxy of shove = draw isnt applicable. In this case its probably the best player in the world vs an excellent one, so trying to impose low stakes online reads onto it is useless. I wasnt saying that a push wont be a draw, just that it could be both. I thought this was clear, but maybe it wasnt, so apologies for the mudslinging!

The-Rigger wrote:

I wouldn't consider flopping an open draw a monster, I understand its a decent flop considering you have rereraised your 53o preflop. I think
betting is fine, I think shoving in for an overbet into the pot on such a dry flop against someone you realise has some thought process is a blunder.

If you reraise with 53o then flopping an open ended straight draw is a monster. You can never be much of a dog and usually have around 33% equity. Considering what you started with thats pretty good. If the guy has AK your equity is 45% and if the guy has an overpair your equity has gone up considerably from preflop. The point is that your equity is now so big if you have any non-negligible chance of winning the hand unimposed you have to take it.

The flop isnt dry at all, theres 2 clubs and a straight draw.

Also its not really that much of an overbet, its twice the pot. If he made a pot bet with any holding, and got rrai, then the pot would be 4 times bigger than his stack. He would have to think that there is less chance of getting called by a hand like AJ if he open pushes rather than a normal bet.

Jesus Wept

Hectorjelly wrote:

so apologies for the mudslinging!

no need! It allowed me to attempt to take the moral highground, which is always an entertaining endevor!

Hectorjelly wrote:

He would have to think that there is less chance of getting called by a hand like AJ if he open pushes rather than a normal bet.

I guess this is one of the essential elements. For many reasons I've stated before, I think he makes it easier for Adam to call by shoving than by making a bet.
With that said, I've been guilty of doing what Antonious did on more than one occasion, though I never feel like its very clever of me.



I'm wondering did Antonious get his last preflop raise amount wrong, or did he actually want there to be a likely chance he would be shoving for a 2 * pot bet.