Elisha, The young boys and the She-Bears.

JimiTime

[Looking for Christian response Only. thanks.]

This is something that was brought up by Son-Goku on a different thread. It refers to 2 Kings 2, Specifically the verses about Elisha calling down 'a curse' upon the 'small boys' who were jeering him.

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

What say the Christian posters about this?

I labelled it christian only to avoid the 'how can you believe God is loving with this' etc etc brigade. we are starting with the conclusion that God is Good and Just and loving. If you disagree with this, then please refrain from posting. Thanks.

philologos

I was discussing this with another Christian friend. Prophets at that time all shaved their heads to show their dedication to the Lord apparently. So these children were slagging the command of the Lord and were slagging not only Elisha, but the whole faith of Judaism in a sense. They had insulted God Himself by saying this. That's what I was told anyway.
It is important to note that the Hebrew word used for boys infact translates as "lads" or so the internet told me. So these could have been young men.

Asiaprod

JimiTime,
Please request that only Christians reply to this post in the opening paragraph of your post. There will be no [CHRISTIANS] tag on any Title of a thread.
There is a gentlemen's agreement by non-believers already in place to honor any post that requests a Christian reply, with the valid caveat, that they would only intrude where the recognized sciences were being ridiculed, discredited or twisted. I believe this has worked, and will continue to work.

To all, please note that this is a thread that requests Christians reply.

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote:

I was discussing this with another Christian friend. Prophets at that time all shaved their heads to show their dedication to the Lord apparently. So these children were slagging the command of the Lord and were slagging not only Elisha, but the whole faith of Judaism in a sense. They had insulted God Himself by saying this. That's what I was told anyway.
It is important to note that the Hebrew word used for boys infact translates as "lads" or so the internet told me. So these could have been young men.

Doesn't sound like the behaviour of young men though. Children died in the flood. Children died in Sodom and Gommorah. Children have not escaped Gods Judgements before. These days children are deemed mostly untouchable. For good reason in most cases. However, we see in the case of Jamie Bulger and in the various school massacres that they are certainly capable of horrible things. It was obviously deemed a horrible thing they done to Elisha and your explaination above, regards the signifigence of the baldness is a great point.
I find its so matter of fact in the way its written, that it was probably written knowing that the intended reader would know exactly why it happened. As a hebrew back then you may have read it like, 'they are Calling Gods prophet a Baldhead, what kind of twisted youths are they, who are their parents. Mauled by Bears, only thing thats good for them'. You get the idea.

Interested in hearing more views on it though.

philologos

I read this on this site http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2ki002.htm

Cursed them... This curse, which was followed by so visible a judgment of God, was not the effect of passion, or of a desire of revenging himself; but of zeal for religion, which was insulted by these boys, in the person of the prophet; and of a divine inspiration: God punishing in this manner the inhabitants of Bethel, (the chief seat of the calf worship), who had trained up their children in a prejudice against the true religion and its ministers.

JimiTime

Son Goku wrote:

As you said children already seemed to be accountable in some way for their actions. Children died in the flood, e.t.c. So initially there is nothing exceptionally unusual about this passage. I would imagine it made perfect sense to hebrews of the day, because it is included without a "hitch". In the sense that the following paragraphs flow into and out of the two verses without much shift in tone. (Might not be true in the original hebrew, but anyway)

Children were also held to account for their Parents actions. I'm sure new-borns were destroyed in judgement also, so it has to be from a parental point of view. Jesus' sacrafice paved the way for salvation for even those who have died in previous judgements.

What marks it out though is the method of punishment, is it the only case where God uses animals directly to carry out his will?

Jonah in the belly of the big fish is another.

Is it also the only case where a prophet invokes action from God? I know the prophets do invoke Gods in other books, but it is usually in the sense of "Go to such and such a place and do such and such a thing and I will respond".

there is also the incident of Elijah calling on Yehowah to consume his offering with fire as a sign to the Ba'al worshipers. Yehowah obliged.

philologos

Elijah carried out a lot of miracles, raising the widows son to life, and Elisha raising another child to life, are all actions carried out by God through the relevant prophets. Elijah promised a widow that her food wouldn't run out till the next harvest, and God ensured that her food wouldn't run out through Elijah.

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote:

I read this on this site http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2ki002.htm

Cursed them... This curse, which was followed by so visible a judgment of God, was not the effect of passion, or of a desire of revenging himself; but of zeal for religion, which was insulted by these boys, in the person of the prophet; and of a divine inspiration: God punishing in this manner the inhabitants of Bethel, (the chief seat of the calf worship), who had trained up their children in a prejudice against the true religion and its ministers.

It would seem that this is the case. Wasn't aware of the golden calf scenario, I'll have to check that out.

philologos

Information about Bethel being the place of worship of the Golden Calf. The legacy of cattle worship in Bethel begain with King Jeroboam of Israel.

1 Kings 12:32-33 wrote:

Jeroboam also instituted a religious festival on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the festival in Judah. On the altar in Bethel he offered sacrifices to the gold bull calves he had made, he placed there in Bethel the priests serving at the place of worship he had built. And the fifteenth day of the eighth month, that day that he himself had set, he went to Bethel and offered a sacrifice on the altar in celebration of the festival he had instituted for the people of Israel.

I'm finding it is making sense as one researches it, but it seems wierd to read it initially without knowing the history of what happened in Bethel.

This link explains a lot too... http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qmeanelisha.html

JimiTime

^ Thanks for that link. Some great points.

BrianCalgary

I wonder if Elijah felt threatened by 42 young fellows yelling insults at him, and the bear was his protection against a potential gang of thugs?

philologos

BrianCalgary wrote:

I wonder if Elijah felt threatened by 42 young fellows yelling insults at him, and the bear was his protection against a potential gang of thugs?

Elisha was meant to have been rather young at the time. His master Elijah had just left him to be with God. Some scholars say that he was around the same age as the thugs in question (who worshipped the golden calves King Jeroboam of Israel had made in Bethel)

mountainyman

Asiaprod wrote:

JimiTime,

There is a gentlemen's agreement by non-believers already in place to honor any post that requests a Christian reply, with the valid caveat, that they would only intrude where the recognized sciences were being ridiculed, discredited or twisted. I believe this has worked, and will continue to work.

Since when has this been the case?

MM

BrianCalgary

mountainyman wrote:

Since when has this been the case?

MM

Within the last couple of weeks.