Why are points so low?

Killaqueen!!!

I'm not complaining but why are the points in IT Tallaght considerably lower than in other colleges?

I mean, a course in Pharmaceutical Science (one that I am interested in) is only 230 points. And no Leaving Cert Science subject is required for it!

comer_97

is it a cert course that follows on to a degree?

And remember the points is about popularity of the course and the college, that could be the reason too.

Tom Dunne

It's because the college can't fill the places - it generally has more places than students. To attract more students, the college lowers the points.

And it's not just that course either, it happens across all disciplines. It also happens at other colleges too.

Killaqueen!!!

Well that particular course gives you an Honours Bachelor Degree in Pharmaceutical Science. It is Level 8 of the NFQ. It seems pretty decent and I've always been told that a degree is a degree no matter what college you do it in. Of course certain colleges can be better than others.

I didn't realise that the points is to do with how many people apply...so this begs another question; whats so bad about IT Tallaght?!

melekalikimaka

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

It seems pretty decent and I've always been told that a degree is a degree no matter what college you do it in.

not quite true, ideally that would be the case, but there is favoritism in alot of disiplines, business and engineering most noteably, dunno bout the sciences. In most cases trinity/UCD have the edge, in many cases companys that recruit pick the colleges they want students from and only go there, leaving out others, business i know this happens fact, it seems unfair but thats the way it works, if the company bigheads are trinity grads, they'll have preference to trinity grads etc

Tom Dunne

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

whats so bad about IT Tallaght?!

There's nothing bad about IT Tallaght, it's simply the laws of supply and demand. Over the past 10 years, there has been heavy investment in 3rd level places, it's the same for a lot of colleges, especially outside Dublin.

melekalikimaka wrote:

ideally that would be the case, but there is favoritism in alot of disiplines, business and engineering most noteably, dunno bout the sciences. In most cases trinity/UCD have the edge, in many cases companys that recruit pick the colleges they want students from and only go there, leaving out others, business i know this happens fact, it seems unfair but thats the way it works, if the company bigheads are trinity grads, they'll have preference to trinity grads etc

This is true, but in an era of practically full employment, where staff are harder to get, this is not as much the case any more. Certainly for the top end of the jobs, but for the lower end, graduate jobs, this is not as relevant.

There is also a palpable sense of snobbery against the Institute of Technology sector anyways, but that's for another thread.

comer_97

colleges don't set the points.

Killaqueen!!!

Hmm..now I'm thinking IT wouldn't be a great option. But no way am I gonna get 500+ points for a Pharmacy-type course in Trinity....

comer_97

i graduated from IT Tallaght and have never had a problem getting a job or have anyone even ask me (other than hr on my cv) where i got my degree from.

I'm in IT and I know many science and engineering graduates from IT Tallaght who have never had a problem. All the business graduates I know are working away in decent jobs.

I think there is a myth out there that people will pick UCD or Trinity graduates over others. From what I can see it is not true.

Naikon

comer_97 wrote:

I think there is a myth out there that people will pick UCD or Trinity graduates over others. From what I can see it is not true.

I know someone who was picked over a UCD graduate because of greater interest and enthusiasm was shown during the interview process, and also that "practical" skills were a valuable asset to the employer.

As much as people like to think otherwise, the whole University vs IOT thing is a bit of a sham really.
You need the theory and the practical emphises, as theory is useless without it being applicable to the "real world"

Oirthir

comer_97 wrote:

colleges don't set the points.

Colleges don't set the points per se, but they can definitely influence them.

Take Audio-Visual Media in Tallaght for instance. The points are currently 315 (as of 2006), this makes it the highest points in the college. Now, it's not because AV is the hardest/smartest/best course in the college, (far from it :P ), it's because the Department of B&H made a conscious effort to limit places, therefore artificially inflating points.

CAO is simple. College says, "we have 30 places for first years on this course", 60 people apply, then CAO picks the top 30 people, gets the lowest persons points, then advertises them as the "points required".

Therefore, if AV had as many places as Pharma or Accountancy or computing or whatever and the ratio of applicants to places was the same, the points for AV would be similar.

Zillah

Oirthir wrote:

Now, it's not because AV is the hardest/smartest/best course in the college, (far from it :P ), it's because the Department of B&H made a conscious effort to limit places, therefore artificially inflating points.

Nope, its because AV is such an amazingly good course filled with such smart and charming people that they're fending them off with a pointy stick.

comer_97

Oirthir that's not strictly true. They offer 30 places because that's how many they can cater for. It's not to keep points high.

Colleges are businesses after all. Althought sometimes they don't act like them.

MrMatisse

Points are low as there is little demand.

Spending all day in the middle of Tallaght is not that attractive to most. In addition the best lecturers are going to be attracted to the best universities with the biggest budgets i.e ucd, trinity. Thus the best students will want to go there and the points will be higher.

No prestige attached to attending tallaght i.t. It has little or no international reputation.

Dont worry about the leaving. we all feel low during it and worry we will end up in tallaght i.t.

If you need any motivation imagine what it would be like to spend your college years in the middle of nowhere in an underfunded institution with little prestige attached to it.

Lemming

holyrood85 wrote:

Points are low as there is little demand.

Spending all day in the middle of Tallaght is not that attractive to most. In addition the best lecturers are going to be attracted to the best universities with the biggest budgets i.e ucd, trinity. Thus the best students will want to go there and the points will be higher.

That isn't exactly true. During my time in Tallaght through the years (first at undergraduate level, and now at post-graduate level) there are some lecturers in there that you're left wondering what are they doing here. I had a lecturer back in the days of my degree who used to work for NASA and _is_ one of the world's leading experts in UNIX system design. Found all that out after he left of course. Got another lecturer now who is obscenely talented and smart with a rather impressive resume and publication list to his name.

There are a few others I can think of as well, but it's neither here nor there. I'm not going to throw names out there.

No prestige attached to attending tallaght i.t. It has little or no international reputation.

If you need any motivation imagine what it would be like to spend your college years in the middle of nowhere in an underfunded institution with little prestige attached to it.

That's just a snobbery thing. And I'm sure most colleges find that exists. And tbh, that above quote sums up everything wrong with how third-level education is viewed.

As for how college points are calculated, they take the results of the last person in the door as the 'bar' for subsequent entries, either in later rounds of the same year, or for the next year. So it's simple supply and demand. If you want to have a look at how _not_ to use CAO points as an indicator of how good a course/college is, look at arts vs. science requirements in UCD. I don't know what they're like now, but when I did my L.C., Science was 415 points and Arts 395. Yeahhhh ..... good indicator alright ...

Giblet

holyrood85 wrote:

If you need any motivation imagine what it would be like to spend your college years in the middle of nowhere in an underfunded institution with little prestige attached to it.

We may not have sports facilities, but compare UCDs and DCUs comp labs to ours and it's a different story. And as for prestige, no-one really cares about where you got your degree from, rather than what you did during your degree.

Tom Dunne

holyrood85 wrote:

No prestige attached to attending tallaght i.t. It has little or no international reputation.

Name one IT in the country that has international reputation.

Name one institution that has an international reputation when it is only in existence 15 years.

holyrood85 wrote:

If you need any motivation imagine what it would be like to spend your college years in the middle of nowhere in an underfunded institution with little prestige attached to it.

WTF is your problem with prestige? Out of curiosity, do you go to college? If so, where?

The vast majority of people attend a college because it is near home, not because of prestige. Hence why something like 85% of the students in IT Tallaght are from the surrounding area.

Lemming

One other thing ... to support what tomdunne has said.

Funnily enough, UCD doesn't have much in the way of "international prestige" either. Trinity College is about the only one known world wide in academia.

comer_97

I always laugh quietly to myself when people talk about the prestige (not the movie) of other universities in Ireland.

Trinity is the only one that appears in the top college lists in the world and in Europe, the rest don't.

And prestige doesn't mean a thing when you are looking for work does it? It may be the old boys club for certain positions but I have never had my degree from IT Tallaght questioned for a second. Never, not once.

There are some great lecturers with great experience (academic and professional) in IT Tallaght, you know some people like to work near home, or on a course they enjoy, it's not Trinity or nothing.

Jocksy

Its pretty obvious given the points system. Less demand due to it being an IT and being out in Tallaght. Like it or not your degree from Tallaght will be judged poorer than those from the bigger Universities.

comer_97

have you any evidence to back that up?

I graduated 7 years ago and have been in very good jobs since. I know in IT people know what is a good degree. DCU do a great one, IT tallaght do a good one too, now from reading the course it seems very good and I taught some very good people there.

I cannot comment on business or marketing degrees though

melekalikimaka

the reason i entered this thread was due to a job ad i had seen before which clearly stated 'trinity grads only'

oh it was a pharmacy job

Lemming

melekalikimaka wrote:

the reason i entered this thread was due to a job ad i had seen before which clearly stated 'trinity grads only'

oh it was a pharmacy job

The pharma industry is horrifyingly up its own arse with academic "prestige". I speak from the experiences/stories of close friends of mine who work in the industry.

I cannot comment directly on pharamcists themselves, but at the manufacturing and clinical trial end of things, it's very bad in that regard. Self-agrandisement would appear to be order of the day

comer_97

that industry you need a Phd to get entry level positions... Why oh why?

MrMatisse

WTF is your problem with prestige? Out of curiosity, do you go to college? If so, where?


I went to U.C.D and am now a postgrad at a world leading university in the U.K.

U.C.D is spending a fortune in the hope of being one of the top 30 unis in europe somewhere like ITTD has no hope of ever doing that thus the points are low as ambitious students want to be where the action is.

An ex NASA world leading expert on something ended up in Tallaght I.T? Not Likely.

ITTD is a second rate third level institution. The little cutting edge research done in Ireland is done at Trinity,U.C.D now that conway is in full stride ,U.C.C and a little at D.C.U. The real stuff is done abroad.

Another point is that anyone who picks their choice of college just because its close to them is an idiot.

comer_97

I'm not sure if that rant was directed at me. If it was just read my previous posts to see that I went to IT Tallaght and graduated from there. I'm proud to have gone there.

To the OP, the points are low in Tallaght for a number of reasons, it is a young institute, some newer courses are bedding in, some people don't want to go there (for whatever reasons), and it is not as popular as other third level institutes.

All that aside it is a good college, you will get a good education there and you can futher yourself both personally and academically.

You may come across some elitists or snobs out there but I haven't and my research and my degree have been very useful in my career so far.

Tom Dunne

And holyrood85, with his superiority complex and inability to recognise third level institutions for what they are, is banned for trolling.

Killaqueen!!!

tom dunne wrote:

And holyrood85, with his superiority complex and inability to recognise third level institutions for what they are, is banned for trolling.

I don't mean to tell you how to do your job but just because you (and many others including myself) disagree with his snobby views doesn't justify a ban.

But anyway...

It seems that there's nothing wrong with IT Tallaght exactly, but that employers (especially in the Science sectar) are sometimes up their arses when it comes to taking someone who graduated from anything other than Trinity!

I guess I'll just have to wait and see how many points I get.

Lemming

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I don't mean to tell you how to do your job but just because you (and many others including myself) disagree with his snobby views doesn't justify a ban.

But anyway...

It seems that there's nothing wrong with IT Tallaght exactly, but that employers (especially in the Science sectar) are sometimes up their arses when it comes to taking someone who graduated from anything other than Trinity!

I guess I'll just have to wait and see how many points I get.

Depends on what sector you're going into I suppose. I've had *no* trouble whatsoever with my degree (I'm a software developer) and I can include Microsoft among former employers. I've had friends in the science sector who have equally had little issue. Indeed, the likes of Proctor & Gamble used to recruit heavily from the Science faculty and would hold recruitment days in the college itself.

And on a footnote, I did indeed have a lecturer who had NASA on his resume and is (or was last I heard at any rate) a leading world expert in UNIX system design. So ... holyrood ... stick that up your banned pipe and smoke it. Along with that very ugly attitude.

I find it interesting, not to mention hysterically ironic, that your name takes after the Scottish national assembly that came in years overdue and vastly over-drawn on budget due to inept fore-thought and planning.

JC 2K3

I did work experience in ITT in 4th year(Chemistry Lab) and found it to be a very nice place and didn't seem to be lacking in necessary facilities at all.

What actually is the difference between an IT and a "normal" university? I used to think that ITs offered lower level degrees, but I now know that is generally not the case.

I think it's fair to say that "normal" universities would on average initially have more people of higher ability in similar courses to ITs, however, as far as I can see, the course material wouldn't be any easier or harder and the degree at the end not much different - although, as already mentioned here, people sometimes get judged by the college they went to by employers.

Essentially, if you really want to do something and can't get the points for TCD, UCD etc. then do it in an IT rather than putting down a lower points course in a "normal" university.

Tom Dunne

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I don't mean to tell you how to do your job but just because you (and many others including myself) disagree with his snobby views doesn't justify a ban.

It wasn't his snobby views that justified the ban, it was his post before I edited it that warranted the ban.

For somebody with such high aspirations, it speaks volumes that he resorted to shool-yard insults to make his point.

Time Magazine

tom dunne wrote:

There's nothing bad about IT Tallaght

The location is crap compared to TCD, UCD, DIT and even DCU.

it's simply the laws of supply and demand. Over the past 10 years, there has been heavy investment in 3rd level places, it's the same for a lot of colleges, especially outside Dublin.

The laws of supply and demand are all entirely relative. If the low points could be explained by heavy investment in 3rd level places (i.e. increased supply), lower points would have been recorded everywhere. This makes reference to the relativity of supply and demand. Points have not fallen everywhere, nor are they "low" everywhere.

Giblet

Ibid wrote:

The location is crap compared to TCD, UCD, DIT and even DCU.

The laws of supply and demand are all entirely relative. If the low points could be explained by heavy investment in 3rd level places (i.e. increased supply), lower points would have been recorded everywhere. This makes reference to the relativity of supply and demand. Points have not fallen everywhere, nor are they "low" everywhere.

CA in DCU dropped to 300 points, which is lower that IT Tallaghts points for computing when I first applied. There is a down turn in certain sectors.

And the location for me, is the best possible location. Sure it takes me 2 hours to get to UCD and 30mins to get to ITT. It's all relative really.

Time Magazine

Lemming wrote:

And on a footnote, I did indeed have a lecturer who had NASA on his resume and is (or was last I heard at any rate) a leading world expert in UNIX system design. So ... holyrood ... stick that up your banned pipe and smoke it. Along with that very ugly attitude.

The attitude was c*ntish, but most departments in universities that I know of have faculty of similar repute.

To take some of the lecturers in my department off the top of my head: one is a Fellow of Cambridge; one is known world-wide on economic history; one is a Fellow of the Royal Statistical Society (he's English) and is cited in undergraduate texts for his discoveries; two of the younger lads did their postgrads Harvard and have received international prizes for their work; one is on sabbatical to the University of Chicago (perhaps the best known Economics department in the world); one was recently appointed Director of the ESRI....

This isn't snobbery, by the way. Simply because the staff in ITT are high-achievers doesn't mean that staff elsewhere haven't done more.

Giblet wrote:

CA in DCU dropped to 300 points, which is lower that IT Tallaghts points for computing when I first applied. There is a down turn in certain sectors.

That's completely irrelevant. Of course certain sectors go in and out of fashion (ICT being a case in point). It does not deflect against my general point though. CS in TCD is about 360 points iirc.

To say that points are lower because supply is up is a bit ludicrous tbh. Demand is up also. Divergences exist.

And the location for me, is the best possible location. Sure it takes me 2 hours to get to UCD and 30mins to get to ITT. It's all relative really.

Anecdotes are fairly useless though. Buses and trains go to town. Nearly all buses and trains stop within 10 minutes walk of Trinity, about fifteen to Aungier St., UCD is easy to get to etc etc. Yeah there's a LUAS and so on, but Tallaght is a bit out of the way.

Tom Dunne

Ibid wrote:

The location is crap compared to TCD, UCD, DIT and even DCU.

Not for the 64000 people living in the locality, it isn't.

Ibid wrote:

Points have not fallen everywhere, nor are they "low" everywhere.

Nobody said they were low everywhere, however there is evidence that they have fallen in the IT sector.

High demand courses, such as in medicine, law, dentistry, vetinary, etc. still have, and probably always will have, high points.

None of these courses are available at IT Tallaght, as far as I am aware.

yawnstretch

I had to choose between Tallaght and Trinity for my degree because I got both offers through the CAO. This was because Tallaght was on the cert/diploma side even though it was a 4 year long course with certs and diplomas on the way to the degree.

The cert/diploma/degree choice makes way more sense to me as each year you are in the course you get something to show for it (in case you have to stop at any point).

When I finished my degree I.T. Tallaght didn't offer a masters (it does now though) so I did my masters in Trinity.

I had no difficulty whatsoever finding a job and it's the same for most of the people I know who went to I.T.T.

Time Magazine

tom dunne wrote:

Not for the 64000 people living in the locality, it isn't.

That's a moot point. About 1.2m people, twenty times the population of Tallaght, live within a 20-60 min bus/train from Trinity and DIT. Most people have to take two forms of transport (at least) to get to Tallaght.

Nobody said they were low everywhere, however there is evidence that they have fallen in the IT sector.

The points for CD in TCD are 355, what are they for the comparable course in ITT? They may have fallen everywhere, it doens't mean they're low everywhere.

High demand courses, such as in medicine, law, dentistry, vetinary, etc. still have, and probably always will have, high points.

My business-ish course was 485 points in 2004. How much for a a Level 8 Business course in ITT?

We're going around in circles here. My point is simply that points are lower in ITT relative to others. Those other places are subject to the same increases in demand and supply. Thus there are other reasons why the points are lower. I'm not saying it's an indication of the quality of the course/students/staff/college/universe but I'm stating that suggesting it's due to increases in supply is ridiculous.

Tom Dunne

Ibid wrote:

That's a moot point. About 1.2m people, twenty times the population of Tallaght, live within a 20-60 min bus/train from Trinity and DIT. Most people have to take two forms of transport (at least) to get to Tallaght.

Most of them don't want to go to IT Tallaght.

Ibid wrote:

They may have fallen everywhere, it doens't mean they're low everywhere.

I think you are repeating yourself. I won't make the same mistake.

Ibid wrote:

My point is simply that points are lower in ITT relative to others.

Glad we agree on something.

Time Magazine

tom dunne wrote:

I think you are repeating yourself. I won't make the same mistake.

There's no contradiction between saying points have fallen and points are low. My course dropped to 465 this year, is that "low"? Of course not. It's not repitition.

tom dunne wrote:

Most of them don't want to go to IT Tallaght.

Bingo.

Why not?

sinjin_smythe

OK at the end of the day I.T's appeal to certain people because of how they can cater for what course people want to do, this may not be the same case for people attending universities, but again universities do have a more prestigious view for certain people which in my view accounts for some form of snobbery.At the end of the day its what people want to do that matters.

Zillah

Ibid wrote:

Bingo.

Why not?

Cos they have their heads stuck up their asses and really want to be able to impress other people who have their asses stuck even further up their asses?

Time Magazine

You really think that's only reason?

Tom Dunne

Zillah wrote:

Cos they have their heads stuck up their asses and really want to be able to impress other people who have their asses stuck even further up their asses?

Zillah, please keep your posts on topic and relevant.

Ibid wrote:

Bingo.

Why not?

All the IT's in the country were built to give access to third level education to people in the locality. Tallaght, and dare I say, Blanchardstown, were built in disadvantaged areas to give the relatively large populations living around access to third level that they would possibly not otherwise get.

That is one of the main reasons not everybody wants to go to the likes of IT Tallaght.

oRGy

The points are so low because IT Tallaght suffers from one inescapable flaw.........it's in Tallaght. Textbooks are expensive enough without having to shell out for Kevlar clothing

Time Magazine

tom dunne wrote:

Zillah, please keep your posts on topic and relevant.

To be fair, prestige does play a role.

All the IT's in the country were built to give access to third level education to people in the locality. Tallaght, and dare I say, Blanchardstown, were built in disadvantaged areas to give the relatively large populations living around access to third level that they would possibly not otherwise get.

That is one of the main reasons not everybody wants to go to the likes of IT Tallaght.

That's a good point.

Do you think that ITs offer the same worth to a potential student as the likes of Trinity? I know one of the things I love about TCD is that everyone is so smart, and hard-working thus there's a lot of competition which makes me work hard. The reputation also instils a hard-working ethic.

Now I'm not saying people in IT Tallaght don't work hard and the way some of the responses have come so far I wouldn't be surprised if ye reached that conclusion. As you say they're primarily for those who don't come from "traditional" third-level backgrounds, would it instill the same sense of competition and all that? Would it be fair to say that there would be more of a focus on enjoying your student years and going for a pint more often than in "traditional" third-level institutions?

What I'm getting at is that employers often look not just at your education but at your personality and approaches to life etc etc. Also the piece of paper might be the same, the person could be different. Could this perception by employers be a cause for lower points?

Tom Dunne

oRGy wrote:

The points are so low because IT Tallaght suffers from one inescapable flaw.........it's in Tallaght. Textbooks are expensive enough without having to shell out for Kevlar clothing

If you have nothing constructive to contribute, then please don't bother.

CiaranC

Ive been sitting in on some interviews for grad/junior tech roles recently. The guys from Trinity/UCD are clever chaps, but they are absolutely clueless when it comes to having specific tech knowledge.

Blokes from the ITs/DIT seem to do way more hands on stuff and get more exposure to technologies actually in use in todays marketplace.

I know which candidates Ive been recommending. YMMV obviously.

oRGy

I was being obnoxious, though I probably can't spell the word. Good job the moderators are able to help me out. Now if only I could get help for the rest of my problems....

CiaranC

If you are going to denigrate an educational institution, you might at least ensure your spelling and punctuation is correct, lest you look rather foolish.

oRGy

I think that you'll find that getting so annoyed at the bored rantings of a stranger is also an effective way to make your self appear foolish. Non?

CiaranC

Whos annoyed? Ive never even been in IT Tallaght. Im amused. I'll be even more amused when a mod pops along and sitebans this and your other account