Irish Rugby

flsghujslkuo

Why can the Irish team destroy the english national side, but on club level be beaten so comprehensivly.

IMO, I think that it was probably the sarcifice of club rugby for international benifit, having watch the games at the weekend the llanelli and wasps teams looked so much sharper than the Irish teams it was imbarrasing. Both provinces made so many mistakes all over the pitch it was disgraceful. Wasps looked like a team that actually played together week in week out and not a bunch of players brought in for the big games and expected to click with the magners league players and leinster did not; munster need a new back like.

Anyone else think that if O sullivan told O Gara kick the corners instead of running/passing we would have won every game, admitedly we wouldn't have won pretty (like against england) but why not play to the strenghts of O Connell and DOC in the lineout... we missed flannery's bullets at lineout time too. I just think the high risk stuff works very well e.g. against england/italy or if it doesn't click i.e. keep losing possesion due to knock ons etc., we play like we did against scotland. In short 'Horses for courses' we should have played the corners (the munster way) against france and we won with the backs getting possesion in the oposition 22 one line break= try.

thebaz

i sense a bit of fickleness following the weekends dissapointing results . If Irish rugby is no good , what state is Scottish rugby ? Is French rugby also doomed with no HC reps ? The reason the English teams are so strong now, is most of them have been together throughout 6 Nations , and have had continuity. Irish rugby has never been so strong , look Easterby, Reddan, Cullen Jennings are still starring, and we concentrate are resources mainly between 2 teams. ! The rest will do the Irish team no harm, and is good as the Bull, Leamy , O'Connell, need a rest before the main event in Spetember . One thing the results did show, is how important O'Driscoll and O'Connell are to Irish rugby, simply irreplaceable. But should we be scared of SA or the Pumas or France -- no -- the All Blacks are the only ones to fear . Pity though the season ended so early.

Diamondmaker

Sangre wrote:

Hayes and Hickie are the only 2 players who would possibly be finished after this world cup.

Hickie has had an outstadning season this year I know hes 31 but I think he has 1 maybe 2 more years left. He has played as well and better than any other Irish or otherwise winger this season good enough young enough:D !

Not so easy for Hayes to play past similar years.....

A short answer to the OP quest " are ireland good or bad?"

We are somewhere in the middle, closer to good, but maybe not as close as we, or the players would wish to be.

This WC and the next 1, maybe 2, seasons are the be all and end all of this squad...so many of a similar age. They all will pass their peak around the saem season or 2!

IMO next year is critical to Leinster, we have steadily improved with regards to results ( like it or not at this point it rings true ) but were caught lacking at big games. A trophy is likley to be won this year and some REAL talent coming into the pack from Leicester Irish and also this season was great experience for the 2 Munsster exiles in the pack too.
The addition of a quality pair of front row and enlisting Jack on a Jocky Wilson darts course for the summer will do us great (or Blaney on a Jocky Wilson bulking course)

I feel Munster are the team with more work to do but at least they peaked with a ERC.

Benedict XVI

daveirl wrote:

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I know that they won a gland slam in ’48. I’ll Google it and if I find something other than a triple crown in the past 20 years I’ll get back to you.

Wexford won 4 football All-Irelands in a row you know, but that was 100 years ago.

daveirl wrote:

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I know in rugby it’s called a Test, but call it what you will it’s still a non competitive game.

daveirl wrote:

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With the hype that has surrounded this current team one would expect them to have won something better than a triple crown.
With the exception of the early ‘80s and Munster in ‘06 every time an Irish rugby team has an important game to win to get them to a higher level they go and fail miserably, here are a few examples

v France 6 nations 2007 (I think I’ll add v France WC 2007 now also)
v France WC 2003
v England 6 nations 2003
v Australia WC 1991

daveirl

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thebaz

People giving out about Irish rugby now, have short memories , 10 years ago it would have been unheard of, of us beating a Southern Hemisphere team. Beating Scotland , and losing to England by less than 20 points was deemed successfulll. I remeber sometimes it was like Simon Geoghan taking on the opposition on his own . Irish rugby is in good hands, the real test will be at the World Cup, we must make it to the semis at least .

potato_man

couldn't agree with thebaz any more...

these pseudo realists and pessimists are either suffering from alzheimer's or are only old enough to remember as far back as BOD's Paris hattrick. if they're unhappy with being a world-class competitive side placing 2nd and winning TCs for the last 4 years... they must never have competed at a serious level in any sport in their lives. For Irish athletes to even compete against countries with the resources they have is a fair enough achievement. But to produce a team that plays such stirring pure running rugby and is also one of the outside bets for the WC is a phenomenal achievement that some ppl just don't get.

Sure Wales managed a freak one-off GS... but ask yourself who you'd prefer to be a supporter of over the last 4 years and going into this WC? Similarly those who play up this other realist-pessimist attitude that we don't stand a chance at the WC are talking complete sh*te. Having only just missed out on the GS this year - while not even reaching top form - the Irish are of course one of the outside chances for a WC upset... if we're not then who is! better still, why bother holding the WC at all... lets just give it to the ABs!!

And then if we do manage something amazing this Autumn, I'm sure all these realist-pessimists will then be telling us that we should therefore be aiming to stroll the next GS to justify that status... but that's NOT how it works for Irish sports! Surely we can be balanced enough to at least hope for attaining the ultimate achievement, while at the same time recognising that (unlike the English) we can still celebrate an admirable and competitive semi-final loss... or even giving this magnificent Kiwi side a good run in the quater final!

Irish teams like this don't come round every other year... you should probably enjoy it while ye can rather than moaning about them being inveterate losers for coming 2nd! I remember growing up thinking the Irish soccer team would always be there or there-abouts in World Cups... beware!

Snickers Man

daveirl wrote:

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We actually only won it outright twice in the 80s. Although we did share it (points difference wasn't used to separate teams level on match points then) with Francein 1983.

Since the war, we have won the Five Nations outright on six occasions. In 1948 (Grand Slam), 1949 (Triple Crown) 1951 (draw with Wales stymied us) 1974 (with only seven points a draw with Wales and a defeat to France) 1982 (Triple Crown) and 1985 (Triple Crown + draw with France).

We haven't yet made it in the Six Nations but since the start of that tournament, we have been the second most consistent team in Europe (just behind France) having played 40 6N matches and won 29 of them.

Benedict XVI

Snickers Man wrote:

We haven't yet made it in the Six Nations but since the start of that tournament, we have been the second most consistent team in Europe (just behind France) having played 40 6N matches and won 29 of them.

If that is not the definition of mediocrity I don’t know what is

funky penguin

Benedict XVI wrote:

If that is not the definition of mediocrity I don’t know what is

Mediocrity is the state of bare minimum adequacy. Is that how you would describe this Irish team? Barely scraping through?

GreenHell

I would describe how the irish team has performed in the last 5-6 years and the results we have achieved as below our potential.

Diamondmaker

Benedict XVI wrote:

If that is not the definition of mediocrity I don’t know what is

I wont question your rugby knowledge and you are of course entitled to your opinion

but your grasp of the english language is poor......

How do you equate 2nd best with mediocre?

Benedict XVI

Diamondmaker wrote:

I wont question your rugby knowledge and you are of course entitled to your opinion

but your grasp of the english language is poor......

How do you equate 2nd best with mediocre?

Relative to the hype that follows them 2nd is most definetly mediocre.

We Irish are great a celebrating 2nd place.

daveirl

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Diamondmaker

Benedict XVI wrote:

Relative to the hype that follows them 2nd is most definetly mediocre.

We Irish are great a celebrating 2nd place.

Sorry the team the fans and the fair weather supporters were dissapointed with this seasons outcome.

The 3C, 2nd in 6N and the Provinces crashing out no one is celebrating anything. Evryone concerned and interested, with their higher ( and justifiably so ) expectations, is left feeling dissapointed.

I know no one celbrating 2nd this season.

The team will be dissapointed to lose a SF to NZ even in the WC, such is the journey Irish rugby has travelled of late!

The Irish are great at moaning and begrudging however I wont deny that

thebaz

Benedict XVI wrote:

Relative to the hype that follows them 2nd is most definetly mediocre.

We Irish are great a celebrating 2nd place.

2nd mediocre ? What planet are you from ?

We have a playing population of about 20,000 , France, Japan and New Zealand have over 100,000 players to choose from , and England over 200,000 -- i think we are doing pretty good all things considered -- rugby is one game in ireland that is not in crisis !

potato_man

Diamondmaker wrote:

I know no one celbrating 2nd this season. The team will be dissapointed to lose a SF to NZ even in the WC, such is the journey Irish rugby has travelled of late!

While I agree with your comment DM... it seems to me its not the real problem here on this thread. While the Irish team and all those who support them will be disappointed with a loss - no matter what stage it comes at - we will all surely be able to differentiate a credible loss from a rubbish performance!

The problem here is that there seems to have emerged in Ireland a whole load of Dunphy-ite/Hook-esque wannabes who think that the way to be realistic is to absorb the SKY SPORTS style hype of acting like your either the best in the world or you're a loser.... and that - especially in countries like Ireland which have such a small sports base - is just plain ridiculous.

I remember Dunphy a few years back just after the 2002 WC saying we should be winning the Euro championships! And Hook plays at the same egotistical nonsense in rugby.... the subtle undertone is that Dunphy/Hook know exactly whats wrong and that then ensures their jobs... Ireland lose and everyone thinks they're the prophets... ireland wins and noone cares what they said anyways.

This Ireland team just a few months ago took a good Aussie team apart in a manner so professional and so fluid, that just a few years ago it would have seemed like you had to be watching a Kiwi V Oz tri-nations game. They then beat a SA team twice in a row. They only lost this GS by - an admittedly unforgivable - last minute try against France and demolished England and Italy by record scores. Now how can all that translate into ppl saying that Ireland are : rubbish, mediocre, etc, etc.

Constructive comments as to what Ireland could do to improve their admittedly weak killer-instinct... or expand our sub bench are helpful... but all this other stuff is really just about the secret jouisssance of those complaining!

psicic

flsghujslkuo wrote:

Anyone else think that if O sullivan told O Gara kick the corners instead of running/passing we would have won every game

My sentiments exactly. O'Gara underperformed for me in that he wasn't kicking for position in behind the back three of the opposition. Oh, he did a good job of tidying up after - even scoring a couple of tries, but because his position is so important, his kicks(or lack of them) put the whole team under pressure. There's no way that the Ireland/Scotland scoreline should have been so close.

Having said all that, I think the system in Ireland, the teams in Ireland are all doing a fine job. I don't think they are at their full potential and they could be great - but they still are doing a fine job.

To clarify, I think, for instance, Leinster have been lumbered with a few players that looked promising but haven't upped their game for some reason. They shouldn't form a team of choice as we have so many other hopefuls dying for their chance to come on and play. (Also, why won't he field Reeeeeegggggieeeeeeeeee a bit more? He's not just there to warm the bench! )

I also think the national team would be stronger if we could pull in Irish players from abroad. This has drawbacks too, though - just look at our soccer team.

Also, at a national level, we've got to learn how to sub players in earlier in matches.

I suppose anyone that enjoys a bit of rugby has a list of 'improvements' they'd like to see. However, I've listed these 'common' ones to highlight that there are many, many other examples that prove the strength of the game. For instance, we DO make it to the knock out stages in Europe regularly. Foreign teams DO pay us the respect of fielding strong teams when playing us in competitions. We are a nation looked up to many nation's who have teams in the 2nd division(e.g. Romania, Spain etc...)

Then there are examples of how our system can cope: When Shane Byrne started to flag (something I admit I never noticed myself) Leinster got a very good replacement in the form of Jackman, who was fostered by playing for Irish teams.

There are many of us who remember the dark days when the Irish teams were the whipping boys of the 'Home Nations' and thinking: "Well at least our soccer team is so good and so many of our players are on English teams now that we'll always rank highly."

I think that today we've a set of fine players and good structures, but we've got to up the ante a little and go that extra mile while we have these resources. I mean, we seem to a good system in place in rugby to replace our players as they grow older and retire...but I, for one, won't go counting our chickens just yet....