Fine Gael Ard Fheis 2007

hairymary

The PDs are liberals you say.What does that mean - I myself would describe them as neo-Thatcherite reactionaries.

You describe Fine Gael as Christian Democrats that will hardly appeal to non-Christian people.I didn't realize Fine Gael were a religious organization.

Can you tell me how many Fine Gael TDs occupy family seats.
How many Fine Gael candidates are related to current or past Fine Gael TDs.

Candidates are chosen according to ability - it would appear then that in the Fine Gael scheme of things men have far more ability than women on average.

How does tinkering with stamp duty create a fairer society?

You don't have to name all the areas that Fine Gael has progressive and enlightened policies.Just a few will do.

You want me to define Big = not Small = large = substantial in money terms.I'd be worried about a party that doesn't divulge that kind of information in light of our recent history.

oscarBravo

hairymary wrote:

The PDs are liberals you say.What does that mean - I myself would describe them as neo-Thatcherite reactionaries.

The PDs are neo-Thatcherite reactionaries, you say. What does that mean?

hairymary wrote:

You describe Fine Gael as Christian Democrats that will hardly appeal to non-Christian people.I didn't realize Fine Gael were a religious organization.

They're not. Perhaps you should do some reading on the subject.

hairymary wrote:

Can you tell me how many Fine Gael TDs occupy family seats.

There are no family seats in this country.

hairymary wrote:

How many Fine Gael candidates are related to current or past Fine Gael TDs.

Why?

hairymary wrote:

Candidates are chosen according to ability - it would appear then that in the Fine Gael scheme of things men have far more ability than women on average.

You know what? You're right. Candidates should be chosen on the basis of ability. Actual willingness to be nominated shouldn't even be a factor. Women should be forced at gunpoint to stand for election, if they have the ability to do the job.

K-9

oscarBravo wrote:

Can I take it you'd advocate the re-introduction of fees for secondary school? Primary?

Off course not and no party is suggesting otherwise.

People on low incomes (too low levels) got free 3rd level fees anyway. The idea at the time was to change it so that Guards/Nurses etc. could also get Free fees. Instead everybody got it so, actually, the poorer sections of society did not benefit from it. So much for the fair and just society!

It's equitable if you are a Solicitor/Michael O'Leary, not if you are from a disadvantaged area. It isn't targetted at disadvantaged areas.

ibid wrote:

I'd tend to agree it hasn't been a great success and could be looked at. Nonetheless the question was, I quote, "Have they ever enacted any law that helped to create a more equitable society?"

Minimum wage, tax credits now match the minimum wage so no tax or PRSI on the Minimum wage, increase in FIS limits as some examples.

oscarBravo

That second quote wasn't from me - I've corrected it for you.

brianthebard

hairymary wrote:

Can you tell me how many Fine Gael TDs occupy family seats.
How many Fine Gael candidates are related to current or past Fine Gael TDs.

I don't see how this is important. But if it is, don't forget that many of the present FF TDs are related to past TDs.

hairymary

oscarBravo wrote:

The PDs are neo-Thatcherite reactionaries, you say. What does that mean? They're not. Perhaps you should do some reading on the subject. There are no family seats in this country. Why? You know what? You're right. Candidates should be chosen on the basis of ability. Actual willingness to be nominated shouldn't even be a factor. Women should be forced at gunpoint to stand for election, if they have the ability to do the job.

Definition of neo-Thatcherite reactionaries

A political group that pursues policies for the benefit of few at the expense of the great majority.

A political group who believe in wholesale privatization of public assets so that their friends and supporters in big business can enrich themselves.

A political group who are anti public companies and who generally have no faith in the public sector.

A political group who are virulently anti-worker and anti-unions.

A politcal group who believe that competition will solve all our social problems while making their friends rich at the same time.

A political group that are extremely right-wing and reactionary when it comes to issues like justice and policing. Who engage in the politics of fear on this subject and every other.

An extreme version of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail - reactionaries all

hairymary

Poor Fine Gael can't find enough women candidates to redress the gender imbalance in their party, but they can establish women groups to look into the problem - and they want to run the country.


Apparently the height of Fine Gael ambition is to be no better than Fianna Fail

brianthebard

So what parties are gender balanced then? Is it perhaps the issue that less women are interested in entering politics rather than FG's fault?

hairymary

brianthebard wrote:

So what parties are gender balanced then? Is it perhaps the issue that less women are interested in entering politics rather than FG's fault?

You say women are less interested in entering politics - I doubt that's true and even if it were Fine Gael and all political parties should still be able to redress the problem.I understand why some women are uncomfortable in a male dominated political culture and the way politics are conducted here. Women after all make-up more than 50% of the population.

is_that_so

hairymary wrote:

What is this a Fine Gael love in?

Look at the thread topic. We were debating the speech. Much of what you said is true providing you bend it in the right way. Yes we have a good number of right-leaning parties, that's a given and has been for a long time. What we will, nevertheless be faced with in a few weeks' time, is more of the same or a change.

You don't seem to favour any of these options yet from your answers you have also adopted the politician's bluff of not answering the question. What's your political poison?.

How we choose our government is based on how we perceive those who want to try to attract us, hence the "love in". Some people liked what they saw , others didn't. But on balance we'll pick the best local with the best set of policies(promises) that best satisfies us.

Time Magazine

hairymary wrote:

The PDs are liberals you say.What does that mean

It means that they follow the political ideology of liberalism.

You describe Fine Gael as Christian Democrats that will hardly appeal to non-Christian people.I didn't realize Fine Gael were a religious organization.

They're not a religious organisation. It would help, for the benefit of discussion on this forum, if you understood the meaning of the term to describe the most popular political ideology in Europe.

Can you tell me how many Fine Gael TDs occupy family seats.

I've answered this for you already, there is no such thing

How many Fine Gael candidates are related to current or past Fine Gael TDs.

Not many. I suggest you don't judge a man on his relatives though. If e.g. Enda Kenny is elected by the people of Mayo, does the fact that his father was a TD lower his democratic mandate? Make him any less capable of a parliamentarian?

Candidates are chosen according to ability - it would appear then that in the Fine Gael scheme of things men have far more ability than women on average.

Candidates are chosen according to their votes by party members.

How does tinkering with stamp duty create a fairer society?

I already told you. Poor people won't pay tax on houses.

You don't have to name all the areas that Fine Gael has progressive and enlightened policies.Just a few will do.

I have.
"Tinkering" with stamp duty.
Free medical care for under-5s.

You want me to define Big = not Small = large = substantial in money terms.I'd be worried about a party that doesn't divulge that kind of information in light of our recent history.

I wanted you to define what is big so that I wouldn't be copying and pasting a list of maybe 10,000 people who have donated a hundred quid here or there.

Incidentally there are laws on the amounts you can give to a political body. Any donation more than €635 has to be declared, and you may not, by law, give more than €2,500 in one year. Anonymous donations of more than €127 are not allowed. Of the €133,000 given to members of the Oireachtas last year, FG TDs got €5,200. FG have 32 members in the Dáil , so the average donation was a whopping €162.50. TDs' basic salary is about €86,000.

In 2006, Simon Coveney TD received a cheque for €1,000 from Stephen Hyde, Granary Wharf, Passage West, Co. Cork.
Michael Noonan TD received a cheque for €2,000 from Michael Gleeson, the local Constituency chairman.
Fergus O'Dowd TD received "tickets to a breakfast" to the value of €1,000 from O'Reilly Thomas Solicitors, North Quay, Drogheda, Co. Louth.
The same TD received €1,200 in "tickets to a breakfast fundraiser" and a cheque from the Monasterboice Inn, Monasterboice, Co. Louth. As both donations to Deputy O'Dowd made reference to "tickets to a breakfast fundraiser" I imagine they're connected and are probably made by members of the party in a similarly open manner as to the one made by a constituency chairman.

There's your list. This was not obtained by sources within the party. This information is publicly available.

Incidentally, FF received over €100,000. Here's a list of their corporate donations.

ballooba

HairyMary has failed to answer a direct question from me and from another poster on what party fits her ideals and what party she supports. I won't be answering any more of her questions here or on other threads until she does so.

hairymary

Ibid I must say that your whole tone and comments are insulting and patronising and display the arrogance that so typifies Fine Gael.

You haven't really answered any of the specific questions I posed so don't insult my intelligence.

You have also misrepresented what I have said and misconstrued my intentions.

Your answers are typical of what we have come to expect from politicians and political parties in Ireland - no wonder people are fed with the cynicism and self-serving attitude of the political classes.

Btw I don't make any distinction between Fine Gael and Fianna Fail - they are both conservative right-wing parties.

Time Magazine

hairymary wrote:

Ibid I must say that your whole tone and comments are insulting and patronising and display the arrogance that so typifies Fine Gael.

Who says I'm in Fine Gael?

You haven't really answered any of the specific questions I posed so don't insult my intelligence.

I didn't insult your intelligence. And you're the one failing to answer questions.

You have also misrepresented what I have said and misconstrued my intentions.

I take it your intentions are to smear FG, then, and not to have mature debate on the topic?

Your answers are typical of what we have come to expect from politicians and political parties in Ireland - no wonder people are fed with the cynicism and self-serving attitude of the political classes.

Tripe, tripe, triple.

Btw I don't make any distinction between Fine Gael and Fianna Fail - they are both conservative right-wing parties.

If you make no distinction you have a serious problem. I wouldn't actually consider either as right-wing parties. Our higher tax-band is 41%. In California it's 9.1%.

Meh, I can't be arsed. Go back to writing in capital letters.

hairymary

ballooba wrote:

HairyMary has failed to answer a direct question from me and from another poster on what party fits her ideals and what party she supports. I won't be answering any more of her questions here or on other threads until she does so.

I don't reveal personal information like what political party I support.
I'm entitled to discuss my political viewpoint without having to divulge that kind of private information.

Btw I have'nt asked you any question - so what is your point.

brianthebard

hairymary wrote:

I don't reveal personal information like what political party I support.
I'm entitled to discuss my political viewpoint without having to divulge that kind of private information.

Btw I have'nt asked you any question - so what is your point.

Why are you happy to insult people's political opinions or try to cast derogatory slurs at their possible political leanings but unhappy to share what party you are interested in or what political ideology you follow?

hairymary

brianthebard wrote:

Why are you happy to insult people's political opinions or try to cast derogatory slurs at their possible political leanings but unhappy to share what party you are interested in or what political ideology you follow?

Where have I done that with quotes please ?

I would have thought my political view was quite apparent from my posts.

Who I vote for is purely private information.

Time Magazine

Might I suggest a few comments that could be seen as insulting or as derogatory slurs?

hairymary wrote:

conservative Fianna Fail.Looking after big business and the middle class elites.

Enda Kenny represents everything that wrong with politics in Ireland

How many right wing parties does this country need

Enda Kenny is the epitome of old style law and order rural Fine Gael conservatism.

Fianna Fail - very conservative/reactionary
Fine Gael - ultra conservative/reactionary
Progressive Democrats - uber conservative/reactionary

I take it then that Fine Gael has no enlightened or progressive policies that might create a more equitable society.

[Regarding the PDs]
A political group that pursues policies for the benefit of few at the expense of the great majority.

A political group who believe in wholesale privatization of public assets so that their friends and supporters in big business can enrich themselves.

A political group who are anti public companies and who generally have no faith in the public sector.

A political group who are virulently anti-worker and anti-unions.

A politcal group who believe that competition will solve all our social problems while making their friends rich at the same time.

A political group that are extremely right-wing and reactionary when it comes to issues like justice and policing. Who engage in the politics of fear on this subject and every other.

An extreme version of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail - reactionaries all

Fine Gael were in power when free third level education was brought in.

Is that it?

The PDs are liberals you say.What does that mean - I myself would describe them as neo-Thatcherite reactionaries.

Poor Fine Gael can't find enough women candidates to redress the gender imbalance in their party

Apparently the height of Fine Gael ambition is to be no better than Fianna Fail

... your whole tone and comments are insulting and patronising and display the arrogance that so typifies Fine Gael.

Your answers are typical of what we have come to expect from politicians and political parties in Ireland

... the cynicism and self-serving attitude of the political classes.

Btw I don't make any distinction between Fine Gael and Fianna Fail - they are both conservative right-wing parties.

brianthebard

Thank you Ibid.

uberwolf

hairymary wrote:

Ibis

"tripe,tripe,triple"

Very mature debate indeed

indeed. But don't respond. Just report. Take another point and engage on it.

Meantime, Ibid, the same applies to you.

K-9

oscarBravo wrote:

That second quote wasn't from me - I've corrected it for you.

Appreciated, late nite;)

ballooba

Ibid wrote:

When you go and hide and spiel waffle about how people are bored with politics, what's to be expected?

I don't see why you are humouring her criticisms when she can't give an example of what she sees as a better party. I wouldn't bother giving her 'arguments' oxygen.

K-9

Ibid wrote:

The abolition of third-level fees is a perfect example of a scheme that will help create a more equitable society.

Ibid wrote:

The problem was/is that the poorest say 10% of society had free fees anyway. Making it free for the other 90% may be equitable if you are in the top 10/20% but it actually does nothing whatsoever for that bottom 10%.

Dempsey did suggest reform, but it is a scared cow now.

Ibid wrote:

The poor, agrieved hairymary has failed to respond to any of my substantive points and had now resorted to "I don't like the way you play this game" whinging.

I went out of my way to address each and every single one of her points and questions, in doing so linking to several policy sites and going so far as to list all the declared donations to each FG TD, yet she responds with stuff like "Apparently the height of Fine Gael ambition is to be no better than Fianna Fail" and the above quote.

I think the problem is you did go out of your way to meet each point, instead of making sweeping generalised statements.

Hairymary wrote:

A political group who are virulently anti-worker and anti-unions.

What party/parties introduced one of the highest minimum wages in Europe with no tax or PRSI on it?

I'm not a PD supporter but you have to give them credit for it to. Anti-worker?

It could be argued that the wealthiest party in the state is not a neo-conservative right wing party:)

BOOZY

He's improving, but still over-rehearsed and overdramatic.

I like this interpretation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTVSUyfdq_I

ballooba

BOOZY wrote:

I like this interpretation

I thought it was funny too. It's all we have in terms of political satire at the moment. So it will have to do.

His Mary Harney one was hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4lHpkbOi2A

K-9

BOOZY wrote:

He's improving, but still over-rehearsed and overdramatic.

He has improved but:

The interview with him with his wife on TV3 was cringeful. P Flynn came to mind:)

Thank God it was TV3 and nobody was watching.

The family values thing didn't work for Albert Reynolds and it won't work for Enda either.

They should have learned from the Bertie payments scandal that people have sympathy for personal issues, whether they thought Bertie was correct in taking the payments or not.

Bertie has the personal touch, Enda has to concentrate on what he does best.

brianthebard

I don't think they should be trying to play FF at their own game though with personal issues and what not, they should be trying to show themselves to be a viable alternative, not the "I can't believe its not FF" election choice.

Dave!

Yeah he should avoid the personal issues game.... Bertie's much better at it, he's much more... cuddle-able lol

Maybe Enda should concentrate on trying to seem strong and trying to be a leader. Bertie kinda represents a sorta sentimental Ireland (in my opinion), with a diddly-aye-diddly-aye image. That's not to say that's the Ireland he or his party are creating or trying to create, but he's successfully cultivated the image of Bertie-down-the-pub, and I think people vote for him because of that, because he's harmless.

But now we've got some serious issues to be concerned about, with the deaths on the road, and the drink-driving; the growth of gangland violence and gun crime; the problems with the health service; etc. If Bertie continues to stick to the "harmless" image he's been using for the past 10 years or so, then he may appear impotent to the voters. Whereas if Enda swoops in and seems like a strong leader who is capable of taking on these issues, then FG could do well.

I'm not saying it would work necessarily, but it could be a good tactic. I like his idea of culpability and the contract, but is that enough to see him elected? Perhaps a combination of the two would be a decent plan.
A strong leader who can take on all the issues at hand, and whom rules his party with an iron fist.

That's what I think anyway

K-9

DaveMcG wrote:

Maybe Enda should concentrate on trying to seem strong and trying to be a leader. Bertie kinda represents a sorta sentimental Ireland (in my opinion), with a diddly-aye-diddly-aye image. That's not to say that's the Ireland he or his party are creating or trying to create, but he's successfully cultivated the image of Bertie-down-the-pub, and I think people vote for him because of that, because he's harmless.

I wouldn't say Bertie has an image of being harmless. I think most people realise he wouldn't be where he is unless he had a tough streak to. He has the common
touch. Not quite the Bill Clinton factor:), he wishes:), but a certain type of charisma.

DaveMcG wrote:

Whereas if Enda swoops in and seems like a strong leader who is capable of taking on these issues, then FG could do well.

I'm not saying it would work necessarily, but it could be a good tactic. I like his idea of culpability and the contract, but is that enough to see him elected? Perhaps a combination of the two would be a decent plan.
A strong leader who can take on all the issues at hand, and whom rules his party with an iron fist.

That's what I think anyway

I do think thats the way for them to go. Offer an alternative to the Bertie approach. On the contract, I think it's a matter will the electorate believe that he will actually resign if that contract is not fulfilled and will the usual political excuses be dragged out 5 years from now. Is it actually a fresh approach or a PR exercise.

irish_bob

hairy mary thinks that fine gael , fianna fail and the pd,s are ultra conservative reactionaty parties
she should take a trip abroad

in my opinion thier are no ultra right wing political partys in this country
most partys are so central , thier a white line in the middle of the road
compared to the republican party in the usa , the pd,s are pinko libs

thier are no ultra right wing partys in ireland because thier is no votes in being ultra right wing or ultra left wing for the most part in ireland
politically were a very moderate people by and large , were not idealogical to the extent americans are on the right or the way the french are on the left
and i for one applaud that in us

as for the pd,s being anti worker , we had 20% unemployment in the mid eighties as a result of high taxation which discouraged private enterprise
the pd,s made it thier goal to reform taxation and as a result weve unemployment at less than 5% . how is that anti worker
the reasons for poverty in rich countries are not simply down to the better off having it too good , poverty is cultural in many ways , thier is a wellfare , an underclass out there , the state can only do so much
were we to allow the state to micro manage things in an attempt to create complete and categortical equality , then that would come at a price
our freedoms would have to be curbed and that would be political suicide for any party
even sinn fein for all thier talk , oh and they are by far the richest party in the land will eventually move more to the centre , they know thier brand of communism lite plays well within student politics etc but deep down know it will not wash with what eoghan harris refers to as moby dick ,

while i would not like to see ireland become like the usa where being poor is the biggest crime thier is and everything has a price , i think we have a better idea here then the french with thier 35 hr week and 15% unemployment rate

as regards fine gael, im not a supporter of any party in particular , i think fine gaels biggest problem is that enda kenny is a charisma free zone
reichard cooper observed brilliantly on the late late the other night that hes like a castlebar prince charles