Champions League Quarter Finals Leg 1

eirebhoy

Pighead wrote:

So basically you're saying that if United score first next Tuesday, Roma are fcuked! Nice one. I'm even more confident of United progressing now.

Who said that? I've seen Roma play about 20 times this season, Man Utd are favourites to go through but I'm confident Roma will be in the semi's.

I see them as the best counter attacking team in the world. Simple as that really.

Pighead

eirebhoy wrote:

Who said that? I've seen Roma play about 20 times this season, Man Utd are favourites to go through but I'm confident Roma will be in the semi's.

I see them as the best counter attacking team in the world. Simple as that really.

You said that Roma are not very good at breaking down teams. They are at their best when counter attacking according to you. Therefore if United score early Roma are gonna have to abandon their counter-attacking game and try and break United down. And according to you they're not very good at that.

eirebhoy

If United score Roma will hardly start dominating the game though. Let's just watch the match as I've dug a big enough hole for myself.

BKtje

It was 2 yellows so if Utd progress he will enter the semi final stage on one yellow(the 2nd is carried over).

Ah right cheers for clearing that up for me

redspider

PHB wrote:

It's because they are the team most likely to win it currently, because they are already through to the semis.
The winner of Chelsea/Valencia, Man Utd/Roma, or Bayern/Milan might be the favorites, but both of those ties are still in the balance. They are favorites because the bookies want Liverpool fans to put money on them now, and they are getting the publicity for it. But its a bad bet, as their odds will go up significantly once the other ties are solved.

yup, I agree with that.

The Insider

PHB wrote:

Eh, he lost the ball once on the counter. He created the Rooney goal in case you've forgotten, Rooney took it well, but Ronaldo was the one who made the goal happen with a tremendous run from the back.
Sky gave him a 9 our of ten
BBC called him 'the outstanding Ronaldo'

Once Scholes got sent off, Ronaldo was the striker. This is what I love about people who hate ROnaldo, anything he doesn't do perfectly is a sign he is ****. I swear to god, it's like criticising Henry for not tracking back. Last night Ronnie was a striker, if he tracked back, the team would have nobody to pass to. That said, if he did track back, you'd probably criticise him for that too.

He lost it more then once. It was Solskjaer who set-up the goal for Rooney with a great cross, it was Rooneys great touch and finish that enabled it to happen, sure Ronaldo took it from the back to before the half way line and gave a simple pass to Solskjaer but I wouldn't give him the credit for the goal.

Apart from that I didn't see him doing much else apart from losing the ball a couple of times and not bothering to make any effort when Utd didn't have the ball. As for Sky and BBC well at least now I know where you pick up your garbage from.

super_furry

PHB wrote:

btw, three United fan were stabbed, before the game. It appears the Mayor was talking **** again. You know what the worst thing is, the fans, were not visited by the police, despite the hospital ringing them to tell them what happened.

It was actually 10 fans stabbed. Six Middlesbrough fans were stabbed there last year and 11 Liverpool fans stabbed there in 2001. Roma should be banned from Europe. Could you imagine if this went on anywhere else? There's a national ****ing emergency everytime a handful of teenagers throw a few rocks at each other after an eircom League game, but Roma fans can go around slicing people up and nothing happens. Italian football is rotten to the core.

Mr. Presentable

super_furry wrote:

It was actually 10 fans stabbed. Six Middlesbrough fans were stabbed there last year and 11 Liverpool fans stabbed there in 2001. Roma should be banned from Europe. Could you imagine if this went on anywhere else? There's a national ****ing emergency everytime a handful of teenagers throw a few rocks at each other after an eircom League game, but Roma fans can go around slicing people up and nothing happens. Italian football is rotten to the core.

People getting stabbed in the streets has sod all to do with football. Italian society, however, may be rttc.

Incidentally, from a non-UK/Italian news site, CNN, note the photo and tell me the police were out of order

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SPORT/football/04/05/italy.trouble/

eirebhoy

The Insider wrote:

He lost it more then once. It was Solskjaer who set-up the goal for Rooney with a great cross, it was Rooneys great touch and finish that enabled it to happen, sure Ronaldo took it from the back to before the half way line and gave a simple pass to Solskjaer but I wouldn't give him the credit for the goal.

As much as I admire Solskjaer, last night was one of the quietest games I've ever seen from a player in my life. His assist and yellow card was the only times I saw him.

Mitch Connor

nipplenuts wrote:

People getting stabbed in the streets has sod all to do with football. Italian society, however, may be rttc.

Incidentally, from a non-UK/Italian news site, CNN, note the photo and tell me the police were out of order

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SPORT/football/04/05/italy.trouble/

the pic indicates an incident AFTER the riot police started smacking everything that moves in a terrible example of crowd control; the stewards on the other side of the fence managed to restore order (kinda) without beating people to a pulp so why did the (better trained) riot police have to smack people about?

I'm not saying throwing plastic seats at fully armed riot police who are hammering your friends with solid batons is the correct way to go about things..... but everything needs to be placed in context.

Mitch Connor

I would also point out a lot of fan trouble in england gets brushed under teh carpet - Liverpool fans through human crap at United fans during a game, and i didn't see a lot of coverage about that

leninbenjamin

Tauren wrote:

I would also point out a lot of fan trouble in england gets brushed under teh carpet - Liverpool fans through human crap at United fans during a game, and i didn't see a lot of coverage about that

throwing is different to actually rushing a barrier though, if the Utd fans responded by rushing the Liverpool fans then i'm sure it would have been all over the papers, rather than a footnote. also glass bottles (which is what was thrown in Rome AFAIK) would do a lot more damage than crap.

side note: Roma should be severely punished for actually permitting the sale of these bottles.

Mitch Connor

i dunno - the crap was thrown inside coke cans (i don't want to think about how, and how much effort went into this) so not only are you geting pelted with crap, but also getting hit by something with a bit of weight behind it too. Granted though, a glass bottle is more ddangerous. However, some of the missiles were chucked back at the Roma fans later on, which should also recieve condemnation.

smemon

Tauren wrote:

However, some of the missiles were chucked back at the Roma fans later on, which should also recieve condemnation.

No fans would tolerate missiles being thrown at them and taunting after the opposition score, plus a police force waiting to strike.

this is a bloody football match, it's not acceptable. Not by today's standards. Had this happened in Old Trafford and utd fans provoking roma fans, Utd could well be kicked out of europe for a season or forced to play behind closed doors.

The italians get away with it. Under new Italian laws, CCTV had to be in place all over the ground, so that, coupled with TV footage should be examined by Roma and the police, and those fans (Roma or Utd) involved in any anti-social/hooligan behaviour, should be banned for life.

Simple as that. Roma should be heavily fined and in future, have a police presence both sides of the barrier. Problem solved.

Mitch Connor

smemon wrote:

No fans would tolerate missiles being thrown at them and taunting after the opposition score, plus a police force waiting to strike.

this is a bloody football match, it's not acceptable. Not by today's standards. Had this happened in Old Trafford and utd fans provoking roma fans, Utd could well be kicked out of europe for a season or forced to play behind closed doors.

The italians get away with it. Under new Italian laws, CCTV had to be in place all over the ground, so that, coupled with TV footage should be examined by Roma and the police, and those fans (Roma or Utd) involved in any anti-social/hooligan behaviour, should be banned for life.

Simple as that. Roma should be heavily fined and in future, have a police presence both sides of the barrier. Problem solved.

i agree completely - but the actions of the Roma fans can not completely excuse the actions of the United fans - yes there was provocation, but they chose to react. I understand, to an extent, the reaction, but it does not excuse it. The police were way out of order and a disgrace, but the united fans should not have put themselves in the position to be beaten by crossing the blocked area to the barrier.

eirebhoy

smemon wrote:

No fans would tolerate missiles being thrown at them and taunting after the opposition score, plus a police force waiting to strike.

If I was at the match I know for a fact I wouldn't have ran over the cordoned off seats and started banging on the perspex. The people that reacted to the Roma fans were silly thugs. Of course the Roma fans were too but I wouldn't be defending the fans that got a few smacks of the baton. It was way over to top by police but the fans should have stayed in their seats and not ran over.

Fighting Irish

Nunu wrote:

Great contribution to the thread mate:rolleyes:

Is that all you ever have to say? He plays 15 minutes after a month out and you're on his back again. Have you been counting down the days for his return, so you can reiterate the fact you don't rate him.....again:D

There was a lot of talk on RTE about how brave Ferguson was by leaving his attacking players on when down to 10 men. Well, yes and no as far as I'm concerned. I mean who was this defensive minded player to spring from the bench. There were no defenders there and fletcher is just back from injury. The others were all strikers Dong, Smith and Saha. One thing it did confirm is that Fergie does not trust/rate Richardson. He could have been brought on to bolster the middle, yet although fully fit didn't even get a run out.

:rolleyes:

Fighting Irish

PHB wrote:

I think if anything happens to Man Utd fans, United will step in and take action against that sort of police action.

How can you judge Saha by the last 20 minutes of a game when he was coming back from injury? That's just stupid. And if you are going to say, well I judged him before, if thats the case, why bother relating it to this thread? Just a silly comment.

In terms of the match, with the weakened squad we have, I would have taken a score draw. After the Scholes sending off, 2-1 is a great result imo. Ronaldo was the United MOM again, top class performance from him. Notice Giles ignored the stuff he says about him, doesn't praise him at all, despite him being the best United player out there by a mile, and really being incredible, hell even the Roma players praised him.
Fair dues to Fergie for leaving on the attackers, ballsy, but worth it. The away goal is key.

Scholes was just silly, does he miss one or two matches in Europe now, I think its two.

They will come to United now, who will have Evra/Fletcher/Park/Saha back in the squad.
People are saying Roma will hit us on the break, but they were hitting us on the break during this match, as United did not sit back and defend, and we still got through it fairly well.
We need to win 1-0 at Old Trafford, something we are well capable of doing.
I think to an extent, Roma didn't capitalise on their chance as well as they could have, and I think United will punish them for it. I think United will get through, I wasn't that impressed with Roma at all to be honest. They beat us when we went down to ten, but when we had 11 on the pitch, they didn't look like they were going to score at all.

Saha is one of the laziest players united have, if he hasn't got the ball he just stands there. He never chases down anything. Watch him in his next match you'll see what i'm talking about.

PHB

Of course the Roma fans were too but I wouldn't be defending the fans that got a few smacks of the baton. It was way over to top by police but the fans should have stayed in their seats and not ran over.

Problem is, you are going from one extreme to the other.
While of course United fans were at fault, they should not have charged, the reactions of the Roma police were still unacceptable.
First off, they didn't target the trouble makers, they just targetting all United fans. Basically, if you happened to be sitting near the Roma fans, just by chance, you were gona get attacked by the police. Rather than dealing with the situation properly, i.e. getting out the trouble makers, they just attacked anybody who was a United fan. This is the same sort of logic that occupying forces use, they are all the enemy. It's bull****, and it can't exist in modern football.

Also, the reaction of the police to the Roma fans compared to the United fans shows this even more.

United fans were defo at fault, but to be honest, the situation could have been easily handled, and it wasn't.

United fans and Roma fans should be punished for their actions, maybe a fine, maybe a ban, but some of the police should just be fired for their actions, especially those who choose to hit the people who were on the ground.

On a side note, it's not a coincidence that at every football game there are random stabbings of opposing fans. Rome is a pretty safe city, there are not random stabbings every night. The ones that occured to United/Liverpool/Boro fans are specifically to do with the Roma fans, and Roma fans should be heavily heavily heavily heavily heavily punished for it.
If this happened in England, England would be kicked out of Europe.

As for Saha, we're gona have to disagree. I think he holds up the ball really well.

adox

Saha is pure class imo and not lazy at all.If only he could stay fit he would be one of the best strikers in the premiership.

Chucky the tree

PHB wrote:

It's because they are the team most likely to win it currently, because they are already through to the semis.
The winner of Chelsea/Valencia, Man Utd/Roma, or Bayern/Milan might be the favorites, but both of those ties are still in the balance. They are favorites because the bookies want Liverpool fans to put money on them now, and they are getting the publicity for it. But its a bad bet, as their odds will go up significantly once the other ties are solved.

Huh? If the bookies wanted Liverpool fans to put money on them they wouldnt be favourites.

It all depends who goes through. If United and chelsea are both eliminated Liverpool will be favourites. If Chelsea and united go through Liverpool will be 3rd. Bu there odds definitly wont double.

eirebhoy

PHB wrote:

Problem is, you are going from one extreme to the other.
While of course United fans were at fault, they should not have charged, the reactions of the Roma police were still unacceptable.

True. Smemon was saying no fans would tolerate what the Roma fans did but that doesn't mean they should react and do exactly what the Roma fans were guilty of.

PHB wrote:

First off, they didn't target the trouble makers, they just targetting all United fans. Basically, if you happened to be sitting near the Roma fans, just by chance, you were gona get attacked by the police.

I don't know about that. As far as I can see there was a block of seats cordoned off either side of the screen to seperate the fans. To get to the screen you'd have to get out of your seat and run across the empty block of seats. Here's another video:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1motq_roma-v-manu-bbc-news-report-police

You can clearly see all the empty seats. Pause it at 1.27. The fights took place in an area the Man Utd and Roma fans shouldn't have went.

cournioni

eirebhoy wrote:

I don't know about that. As far as I can see there was a block of seats cordoned off either side of the screen to seperate the fans. To get to the screen you'd have to get out of your seat and run across the empty block of seats. Here's another video:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1motq_roma-v-manu-bbc-news-report-police

You can clearly see all the empty seats. Pause it at 1.27. The fights took place in an area the Man Utd and Roma fans shouldn't have went.

Well just have a read of this eirebhoy, from a mate at the game.

****ing insane.

The journey there on the buses was mad enough, a convoy surrounded by coppers leaning out their cars with batons and guns and italians on motorcycles giving us the 'cuthroat' sign.

In the ground 3 hours early, a lot of the lads who arrived later independently got attacked outside the ground in little groups by big groups of italians with bottles and knives, already a few bandaged before the game started.

I was sitting just behind a piece of plastic above one of the entrances to our section, right in the middle of our bit, overlooking where a load of reds were getting into the game - as we got closer to kick off, it got really crowded there already and there was nowhere to go, and loads of coppers already there.

There was a fair bit of **** flying between the fans when the game started, but when they scored it all just changed.

Basically, a few United ran at their end when they scored and their police went to work. It was sheer bedlam. As always in Italy, their tactic was to get the truncheons out and beat everyone back. They decided they wanted to push United further away from the end they ran than we had even been before the game, cramming us all further back - to do that they literally beat people back.

Anyone who happened to be stood in the way, looking or otherwise, got hit with whatever they had, truncheons, shields, obviously a lot of people had just been watching the game and weren't doing anything wrong but were still getting it from them. Obviously some reds tried to stand up to them and this just made it worse and others just didn't see why they were getting beaten but they just continued to be. It was insanity.

The worst bit though, was just in front of me in the entrance to our end, a whole load of their coppers came up from down below and wanted to get involved, but it was too packed, so they started to beat their way through.

It was unreal. Literally swinging truncheons at random heads to clear the way, headbutting people with their helmets, smashing their faces, pushing them down stairs, these people REALLY were doing nothing wrong. They had nowhere to move and they took horrendous hits from these ****ers. Again, there were people with kids who were angered, people with innocent mates who couldnt understand why they were being attacked who asked the question and were met with the same treatment.

It took about 15-20 minutes of constant thrashing from them to get the situation under control.

All the time bottles of piss and otherwise were flying both ways, coins, lighters, loads of lads walking around covered in blood and bandages.

It was ****ing horrible. The Italian police are scum. Yes, our lads weren't angels, but their indiscriminate behaviour is just shocking and it happens every single time with Italy. It makes you feel like Britain is ****ing civilised. Nothing will get done about it and it will happen again. Going away to Europe you run the risk of getting caught up in this ****. It's a fact of life.

**** knows whats going on in town now. I got on the first bus and managed to grab a cab to my hotel (after hours in the ground). I hope every single red gets home safe and sound tonight

He's not the type to bull**** either.

leninbenjamin

shouldn't questions also be asked of Roma's seating? they have no backs, and quite frankly it's so easy to run across them judging by the pictures. i thought the whole point of seating was to prevent that type of thing, to impair crowds rushing over them and that. The guardian makes mention of it, saying that the seating they have in place isn't much better than terraces.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Twice now this season Man U fans have been involved in attrocious acts in away cities and twice Man U fans say "It's the fault of the police". When do the fans admit some culpability ?

leninbenjamin

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Twice now this season Man U fans have been involved in attrocious acts in away cities and twice Man U fans say "It's the fault of the police". When do the fans admit some culpability ?

well look at the results of the UEFA probe into the Lille affair. they pretty much acknowledged that most of the problems there were caused by the stadium and policing, as reflected in the pretty light fine Utd got considering the offenses.

No one is saying the Utd fans are squeaky clean either in these affairs, but that the responses were completely out of proportion and merely aggravated the situation rather than diffusing it. And i think that's pretty obvious in the footage.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Completely out of order ?? Man U fans charged through the cordoned off seats, threw missiles, seats etc etc and eventually have to accept that they brought it upon themselves. The reputation of the italian police is well known and to risk the wrath of it in that manner was plain stupidity.

Livvie

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Twice now this season Man U fans have been involved in attrocious acts in away cities and twice Man U fans say "It's the fault of the police". When do the fans admit some culpability ?

There are faults on both sides, but the police are indiscriminate, which is wrong. In both incidents the police should have shown more control. Battering anyone who happens to be in the way will only inflame the situation, and there will always be supporters who are either looking for trouble, or who get the red mist and can't control themselves.

leninbenjamin

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Completely out of order ??

did you not read what was said? I said the response by the police was OUT OF PROPORTION! yes, a response was necessitated, but that does not mean the police should have gone in and batter the livin' daylights out of every tom dick and harry and their wives. Look how much better the situation was handled by only unarmed stewards on the pother side of the barrier. All the police needed to do was place themselves between the Utd fans and the barrier, not go 300 on them.

KdjaCL

pats fan wrote:

Was at the Liverpool game on Tuesday and the behaviour of the stewards and police was shocking. There were 3 turnstiles open for away fans and multiple searches on the way which resulted in me and about 300 others missing the first half. Once we got passed the turnsile we were stopped by police as the passage into the ground is about 5 foot wide and there would of been a crush. If anyone gave out to the cops they got a nice baton to the head!! The stewards just stood around doing nothing and they kept saying that the police were in charge. Seen a few people injured near the turnstile from crushing so I was surprised there was no media coverage about it.
Then this evening I see the united fans getting a beating in Roma and they were probably in Lille too so they are having it tough
Although every club has a nasty bag element I really think European clubs are living in the 80's when it comes to dealing with English fans and that people are going to die unless fans are treated the same way home fans are. If Liverpool play United in Athens and the clubs dont bring their own stewards I hate to think what will happen

replied with

another pats fan wrote:

Officials on the Continent tend to brand all English fans with the same brush. It's the price they pay for the behaviour of the nasty following their National Team, not that it justifies it.

The problem of hooliganism in Britain (at least inside grounds) was largely overcome when the authorities, aided by CCTV, took an individualised approach to the problem. So instead of people reading in the newspapers about the shameful scenes where the Inter City firm had injured 2 constables and the Club involved getting a fine, they read that Thomas Smith, 33, of 37 Tossers Drive, Barking had been arrested and charged with assault. Which he then had to explain away to his employers and missus, minus the support of his 'firm'. It's the only thing that's had any success so far and it means discrimination against fans that don't cause trouble is minimised. I'm not saying it's perfect but it does seem to be working at least in the grounds.

Clubs on the continent are light years behind on this. Very few even have fixed CCTV installed, so can't produce the evidence they need in court to proceed in this way. They'd rather let the law baton charge everybody. This does produce a 'let off the leash' response with some of these English acting like eejits on the continent because they know they can get away with it.

pretty much sums it up.


kdjacs

Thanx 4 The Fish

Out of proportion to what ? english fans have a dreadful reputation abroad. A policeman was killed recently over there, man u fans charge a perspex window which they could prob have quite easily knocked down and we all know what happens then, put a potential riot down before it starts seems fair enough to me.

And btw, you changed your post after I had started to respond to it, I can put it back to what it was if you like. But then of course your "did you not read what was said" comment wouldn't hold much water, would it.....

leninbenjamin

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Out of proportion to what ? english fans have a dreadful reputation abroad. A policeman was killed recently over there, man u fans charge a perspex window which they could prob have quite easily knocked down and we all know what happens then, put a potential riot down before it starts seems fair enough to me.

And btw, you changed your post after I had started to respond to it, I can put it back to what it was if you like. But then of course your "did you not read what was said" comment wouldn't hold much water, would it.....

all i'll say is there was no need for the police to behave the way they did. all they needed to do was push the fans back with their shields and get between them and the wall.

and change it back i don't give a toss. you're response to me implied like you read my post as if i said the police shouldn't have done anything, which is not how i feel at all.

Edit: and the "did you not read bit".... well you were pretty disparaging about my post, so i thought it only fair i'd return the favour.

Livvie

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Out of proportion to what ? english fans have a dreadful reputation abroad. A policeman was killed recently over there,

England has a hard core of moronic fans, but they weren't resonsible for the death of the policeman. I know you weren't implying that they were btw - but the fact is that Italy and some other countries in Europe have supporters who are just as bad as the English. Most of these cretins support the violence more than their team imo.

BKtje

Completely out of order ?? Man U fans charged through the cordoned off seats, threw missiles, seats etc etc

Totally true and i dont think anyone here has said they should get off scott free, they have already gotten a beating tho afterall but i fail to see how the Roma fans who instigated it have been punished.

The reputation of the italian police is well known and to risk the wrath of it in that manner was plain stupidity.

That may be but does that make it right?
ALso what about the fans first hand report that pornapster posted, pretty disgraceful behaviour!

cournioni

T4TF, cop on, no one is saying either United fans or Roma fans are blameless. We are talking about the police heavy handedness on United fans in this situation as opposed to stewards on the other side of the perspex simply ushering Roma fans away from it.

There was absolutely no need for it. Most United fans were out, or leaving the cordoned off area when the police attacked them. If you read my last post, it should give a decent picture of what happened. It is sickening and I would say United fans would probably have preferred to be seated with the Roma Ultra's than that thuggish police force. There probably would have been less injuries if that had been the case.

Please leave your ABU tinted specs at home T4TF, no Roma fans were hurt, no policemen were hurt, only United fans. All you are doing is rubbing the salt into United fans wounds. The Italian police and Roma fans will get off scott free, while United fans, guilty and innocent are sitting at home/in hospital nursing various injuries.

mike65

Its gets worse

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premiership/manchester_united/article1620786.ece

Mike.

LostinBlanch

PORNAPSTER wrote:

All you are doing is rubbing the salt into United fans wounds.

That's all he's interested in, trolling.

leninbenjamin

Achille Serra, the Prefect of Rome wrote:

"There were incidents before and during the game, but nothing that I would say was serious.”

weren't there a few stabbings?

for the actions of Utds fans in reacting, they should face punishment (possibly even play a game behind closed doors).

but i also think this shows the Roma are incapable of hosting Champions League matches. stabbings and co-ordinated attacks by their fans, unsafe seating conducive to rushing, selling of glass bottles inside the stadium from what i heard, and an uncontrollable police force, complete ignorance on the authorities behalf... Rome shouldn't be allowed host another European match for the foreseeable future imo.

KdjaCL

leninbenjamin wrote:

weren't there a few stabbings?

for the actions of Utds fans in reacting, they should face punishment (possibly even play a game behind closed doors).

but i also think this shows the Roma are incapable of hosting Champions League matches. stabbings and co-ordinated attacks by their fans, unsafe seating conducive to rushing, selling of glass bottles inside the stadium from what i heard, and an uncontrollable police force, complete ignorance on the authorities behalf... Rome shouldn't be allowed host another European match for the foreseeable future imo.

Just to quote someone else really...

Originally Posted by another pats fan
Officials on the Continent tend to brand all English fans with the same brush. It's the price they pay for the behaviour of the nasty following their National Team, not that it justifies it.

The problem of hooliganism in Britain (at least inside grounds) was largely overcome when the authorities, aided by CCTV, took an individualised approach to the problem. So instead of people reading in the newspapers about the shameful scenes where the Inter City firm had injured 2 constables and the Club involved getting a fine, they read that Thomas Smith, 33, of 37 Tossers Drive, Barking had been arrested and charged with assault. Which he then had to explain away to his employers and missus, minus the support of his 'firm'. It's the only thing that's had any success so far and it means discrimination against fans that don't cause trouble is minimised. I'm not saying it's perfect but it does seem to be working at least in the grounds.

Clubs on the continent are light years behind on this. Very few even have fixed CCTV installed, so can't produce the evidence they need in court to proceed in this way. They'd rather let the law baton charge everybody. This does produce a 'let off the leash' response with some of these English acting like eejits on the continent because they know they can get away with it.

it is spot on.

kdjac

leninbenjamin

KdjaCL wrote:

Just to quote someone else really...

it is spot on.

kdjac

yeah, i read that. good post.

Thanx 4 The Fish

PORNAPSTER wrote:

T4TF, cop on, no one is saying either United fans or Roma fans are blameless. We are talking about the police heavy handedness on United fans in this situation as opposed to stewards on the other side of the perspex simply ushering Roma fans away from it.

There was absolutely no need for it. Most United fans were out, or leaving the cordoned off area when the police attacked them. If you read my last post, it should give a decent picture of what happened. It is sickening and I would say United fans would probably have preferred to be seated with the Roma Ultra's than that thuggish police force. There probably would have been less injuries if that had been the case.

Please leave your ABU tinted specs at home T4TF, no Roma fans were hurt, no policemen were hurt, only United fans. All you are doing is rubbing the salt into United fans wounds. The Italian police and Roma fans will get off scott free, while United fans, guilty and innocent are sitting at home/in hospital nursing various injuries.

As far as I could tell Porn this thread was about the Champions league games this week. Not about the thiggish fans united brought to the games (who have been filmed attacking the police btw), the thuggish fans that were already at the site in the form of the roma ultras or the police. And if you chose to see that Man United fans have been involved in two clashes on the continent this season while their fans name those who point this out as biased then I would say that it is you who have the need of a visit to the opticians.

cournioni

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

As far as I could tell Porn this thread was about the Champions league games this week. Not about the thiggish fans united brought to the games (who have been filmed attacking the police btw), the thuggish fans that were already at the site in the form of the roma ultras or the police. And if you chose to see that Man United fans have been involved in two clashes on the continent this season while their fans name those who point this out as biased then I would say that it is you who have the need of a visit to the opticians.

Yes it is about the Champions League games, but the crowd, or should I say police trouble was at one of these Champions League games. Or would you like us to start a whole new thread so you can move all related posts into it?

I love how you are being so selective in what you type T4TF, you are totally avoiding any detail on both the Lille and Roma away ties. While you are telling the truth about some of the United fans, you are missing all of the important parts about over crowding in the away end due to negligence by the police/stewards/organisers at the Lille game and United fans being beat over the head with batons while lying unconsious on the ground at the Roma game.

There was no attacks on police by United supporters at the Lille game, there was a crush against the barrier and United fans climbed the barrier to what they thought was safety only to be beaten by police. This has been proven to be a fact.

Let me put it to you again, at what point did the United fans cause any harm to either the Roma fans or the police Wednesday night? They ran into a cordoned off area after being incited by Roma fans, which was wrong and very stupid. They retreated into their own section seconds afterwards, with some being caught by police. When the people caught by police retreated into the United section police start indiscriminately hitting United supporters (and beating them to a pulp) who had nothing to do with the 20-30 United supporters that ran into the cordoned off section, that is when the United fans from higher up on the stand "attacked" the police with ONE plastic chair to deflect the attention of the police from beating the innocent fans on the ground presumably. As opposed to numbers of thugs dressed in navy blue armed to the teeth attacking innocent United supporters with battons, shields and helmets. So please if you're going to use your clouded judgement on these incidents, use them on a Liverpool forum somewhere.

You'd think that a fan of a club which has seen incidents like Hillsborough (which very nearly did happen to United fans in France) and Heysel would know better than to comment on United's fans in Europe this season. Do us a favour T4TF.

Thanx 4 The Fish

So do you blame liverpool fans for Heysel Porn ? There are a large number of Man U fans here who do and yet many are the same ones who come on here and say that United are the victims of poor crowd control and police brutality.

They can't have it both ways surely.

So somebody was incited to do something, they reacted (very stupid really) and were beaten for it. There were far more than 20-30 man U fans who ran into that cordoned off section, just because there is only pictures of one guy throwing seats and missiles does not mean that only one person did it, just that this is the only picture that was published so far and why are you making assumptions that the guy who threw the chair was only doing it to deflect attention ? Is it because you are a Man U fan and you only wish to see the best of your supporters ?

PHB

There was no attacks on police by United supporters at the Lille game, there was a crush against the barrier and United fans climbed the barrier to what they thought was safety only to be beaten by police. This has been proven to be a fact.

Just gona say that again, just so people would stop saying United were involved in two clashes this season etc etc etc.

Livvie

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

So do you blame liverpool fans for Heysel Porn ? There are a large number of Man U fans here who do and yet many are the same ones who come on here and say that United are the victims of poor crowd control and police brutality.

They can't have it both ways surely.

So somebody was incited to do something, they reacted (very stupid really) and were beaten for it. There were far more than 20-30 man U fans who ran into that cordoned off section, just because there is only pictures of one guy throwing seats and missiles does not mean that only one person did it, just that this is the only picture that was published so far and why are you making assumptions that the guy who threw the chair was only doing it to deflect attention ? Is it because you are a Man U fan and you only wish to see the best of your supporters ?

Maybe there would be less violence in soccer if supporters would realise that basically, they are all the same, with the same attitudes, and the same flaws. United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Roma - are one set of fans really that much different from others?

Every club has its idiots. Trying to make our own clubs whiter than white isn't constructive or productive. We have a joint problem here, and all the decent supporters - of which there are many - should work together to get rid of a problem which is not unique to just one club.

cournioni

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

So do you blame liverpool fans for Heysel Porn ? There are a large number of Man U fans here who do and yet many are the same ones who come on here and say that United are the victims of poor crowd control and police brutality.

They can't have it both ways surely.

Yes I do blame the Liverpool fans for Heysel T4TF, they were the ones that charged through the barrier causing a crush at the other end. I have already said that a section of the United fans were wrong to react to the provocation and the charge by Roma supporters. Or maybe you conveniently missed those comments too.

Thanx 4 The Fish

And yet when Man U fans charged at a perspex fence that could have gone ove and crushed any number of Roma Fans and the Roma police acted to stop this potential loss of life by laying about them a bit with some truncheons you are saying the police were wrong.....:rolleyes:

cournioni

Doesn't the word indiscriminately mean anything to you? They hit United fans, guilty and innocent. They beat many innocent United supporters to a pulp. I didn't see any police on the Roma side beating the trouble makers on their side of the perspex who could have equally caused loss of life on the United side of the fence. That is my problem.

PHB

And yet when Man U fans charged at a perspex fence that could have gone ove and crushed any number of Roma Fans and the Roma police acted to stop this potential loss of life by laying about them a bit with some truncheons you are saying the police were wrong.....

T4TF, why couldn't the police do what they did to the Roma fans? Why couldn't they just wade in to stop the trouble like they did with Roma fans? What is the difference between the Roma and United fans?

redspider

I think the problems at Sevilla last night are going to throw more focus on the crowd trouble, and Uefa will have to act decisively.

> England has a hard core of moronic fans

I think that all of us have seen from many sets of fans across different countries, Ireland included (clubs), idiotic behaviour which is not from a core set but from many many 'near average' fans that number in the 1000's.

For example, we have all witnessed going to an away match, gone into a city centre, where the drinking continues/intensifies and the fans think they can mess around and get away with things that they wouldnt try in their own neighbourhood. This collective misbehaviour spreads like wildfire and consists of throwing bottles, spilling drinks, chastising barmaids, locals in the steet, etc, etc. You name it, you've seen it. Some people think its fun and they are acting the lark and 'only having a laugh'. Except this misbehaviour is not so innocent at all. It leads to vandalism of shops, train stations, trains, buses, etc, and against people. Its a crowd/mob mentality and there are FAR TOO MANY people carrying it out. They come and act as if they own the place, its an 'invasion' of sorts. And it can get out of control and lead to violence and riots.

Authorities and Police have a disdain for the fans because they are loud and can cause trouble wherever they go. Their approach is show an iron hand first and ask questions later.

Accordingly, Away Fans aren't too enamoured either. They are at times treated like cattle, and at all times the division of 'us and them' is reinforced as fans are segregated, corralled and indeed hassled from plane to train/bus to stadium, etc. Its all a bit of a mess if you ask me.

Overall, it's one reason why the Irish national team fans are 'loved' all over the world because we'd rather enjoy the locals and the cities, etc, with them, rather than go there and treat them with contempt and be up for trouble. Mind you, the worst is not expected from us so that helps keep things on a smooth path from the start.

In terms of UEFA, earlier this season they made an example of Feyenoord by throwing them out of the Uefa Cup completely:

Platini said: 'I am very happy with the decision of CAS to uphold the UEFA appeals body judgement. This sends out a strong message that acts of violence by fans within the game will be heavily dealt with and punished by the relevant authorities.'


Throwing out Feyenoord was a relatively 'easy decision' as it was early in the competition and they were unlikely to win it. Now the decisions are harder. I think Uefa cant throw out Man Utd or Roma. I think that both punishments will be equal. The problem Uefa have is that time is short and it is unlikely they will decide before the return leg.

One obvious an easy punishment is to ban away fans from Roma's and Man Utd's next matches in European competition, maybe a 6 months ban or 12 months (and of course the customary nominal fine). That will send some sort of message. It of course wont upset the hard core, and there are some I agree, but they are the tip of an iceberg which is quite large in my opinion and endemic in a lot society in these situations. These situations encourage the misbehaviour more than anything else.

Just some thoughts ....

redspider