Provisional Driver needing to use Motorways

Chakar

bonkey wrote:

It doesn't matter whether the law is there for a good or bad reason.

The law is there and thats all that matters.

If you can't obey it, particularly as a learner, then you shouldn't be on the road.

ETA: My first thought when I read the thread title of this....A learner needing to use the motorway? Is there actually somewhere that you can only get to by motorway in Ireland?

Sure they banned provisional licence holders from the motorways for a laugh.

MrPudding

Chakar wrote:

Sure they banned provisional licence holders from the motorways for a laugh.

Obviously. 3 months driving experience and no one in with him, he must be a legend driver, obviously knows better than those idiots making up the rules.

MrP

jhegarty

MrPudding wrote:

no one in with him

MrP

Where does the op say he is driving on his own ?

MrPudding

jhegarty wrote:

Where does the op say he is driving on his own ?

OK, I admit it, I made an assumption. Given that he is driving for work I assumed he didn't have his mammy or daddy in the car with him.

Besides, if he had a qualified driver with him they could have driven on the motorway for him. No?

Perhaps the OP can tell us if he drives accompanied when driving for work.

MrP

jhegarty

MrPudding wrote:

OK, I admit it, I made an assumption. Given that he is driving for work I assumed he didn't have his mammy or daddy in the car with him.

Besides, if he had a qualified driver with him they could have driven on the motorway for him. No?

Perhaps the OP can tell us if he drives accompanied when driving for work.

MrP

Perhape he had someone with him who is not insured to drive his car .... (and I admit I don't know either , don't make me wrong op or I am rining traffic watch )

yayamark

maoleary wrote:

Violating the terms of your license means mandatory court summons.

There is no fine or points, its summons!! Don't chance it, I've seen a few L platers arrested for it.
. If you are an L-plater and you have an accident on a motorway, your insurance company (and the third party's one) do not have to cover you (whether you're in the right or wrong) because you're driving outside the terms of your license. Traffic Corps will not be kind if they spot you.

wrong and wrong

as u say "violating" the terms of your licencse does not mean a mandatory court summons. it is up to the gardai if he wishes to excercise his power of discretion and summons u or not


and insurance will cover you that what you get the insurance for. they just wont insure u gain and may sue u for damages.

the_syco

Under a few bridges on the motarway to Swords, there are white vans. They are seen under the same bridges every few weeks, so you can safely assume they are unmarked speed cams. So the motarway can be bad, even if you never see a cop.

Stark

the_syco wrote:

Under a few bridges on the motarway to Swords, there are white vans. They are seen under the same bridges every few weeks, so you can safely assume they are unmarked speed cams. So the motarway can be bad, even if you never see a cop.

Ah yeah, but that's just typical Irish "enforce the speed limit and nothing else" policing.

bonkey

Chakar wrote:

Sure they banned provisional licence holders from the motorways for a laugh.

I've no idea at all why they banned them from the motorways. There isn't, that I can see, a single reason that suggests it is a better course of action than not banning them.

But that's not the point. Its not about what you or I think of the rules. Its no more relevant then me thinking a 60km/h limit on a straight open road I was on today was senseless.

The point is that this is the law I, as a driver, am required to abide by. If I have a problem doing that, then I shouldn't get behind the wheel in the first place.

I'm learning here in Switzerland, where the system is positively draconian compared to Ireland. This is a country where you can pick up lifetime bans for cetain offences ...and you know what...I wish it was even more stringent, because it would get rid of so many of the idiots on the road that it would make life for the law-abiding so much easier.

Stark

bonkey wrote:

I've no idea at all why they banned them from the motorways. There isn't, that I can see, a single reason that suggests it is a better course of action than not banning them.

Because someone trundling along at 60km/hr scared out of their wits is going to be a hazard when the bulk of the traffic is doing 120km/hr.

Royale with Cheese

Stark wrote:

Because someone trundling along at 60km/hr scared out of their wits is going to be a hazard when the bulk of the traffic is doing 120km/hr.

And assuming they never drive on the motorway before they get their licence how would passing a test make any difference to how fast they'd drive and how scared they'd be?

Your point makes no sense seeing that passing a driving test rarely involves driving over 60km/h. Seriously driving on motorways involves driving in a straight line at 120km/h, it's far less dangerous than some of the twisty country roads you get with 80km/h+ speed limits.

Stark

I'm aware that it doesn't really hold up when you take into consideration the ****e training and testing scheme in this country. Banning L-drivers doesn't stop me from being stuck behind someone merging at 50-60km/hr onto the motorway forcing the cars with right of way to slam on the brakes for example. However, removing the ban would mean the motorways would be fair game for someone who has just hopped into the driver's seat. Encountering a driving school car creeping along at 20km/hr is fine if you're in a residential area; it wouldn't be so good to encounter one on a 120km/hr road though.

Royale with Cheese

You really think driving schools would take students onto motorways and get them to drive at 20km/h? I've said before in this thread... driving on motorways should be part of the education/test and L drivers should only be allowed on motorways with a driving school.

Then again I'm aware anybody with a licence can put a Giant L on the top of their micra and call themselves a driving school. And the huge waiting list will stop anything from changing in the current system. The whole thing's just a huge mess really.

bonkey

Stark wrote:

Because someone trundling along at 60km/hr scared out of their wits is going to be a hazard when the bulk of the traffic is doing 120km/hr.

But thats got nothing to do with learners or motorways.

Learners driving below the speed-limit anywhere are a danger to traffic. There is also no reason to believe that a learner will be doing 60 on the motorway, nor that a non-learner driving on the motorway for the first time after getting their license will be any better.

As I said, I'm learning here in Switzerland. I'm taught how to handle myself on the on-ramps, and on the off-ramps. How to handle myself when there are on- or off-ramps that I'm not taking. I'm taught how to drive at 120, and what I should do differently. I'm taught how to overtake safely, taking large speed-differences into account, and when to know that it is safer to sit behind that slow vehicle rather than pull into the faster lane.

I'm also taught to give people with L plates more space than I give to other cars.

<edited to add>
My driving instructor also suggested to me that I keep off motorways with acconmpanying drivers until I had done at least one motorway lesson with her...which she agreed to do once she felt I could handle it. This was only a suggestion, but thats because legally she can't stop me.
</edit>

Explain to me why what I'm being taught is putting more lives at risk then keeping me off motorways until such times as I pass a test which then lets me experience all of these things for the first time without ever having been taught what I should do.

The Irish system is broken. Keeping learners off motorways only makes sense as a decision made in terms of not wanting to have to address other issues.

Stark

bonkey wrote:

Learners driving below the speed-limit anywhere are a danger to traffic.

But motorways are designed to have much fewer dangers than standard roads so that an increased speed limit can be justified.

bonkey wrote:

There is also no reason to believe that a learner will be doing 60 on the motorway, nor that a non-learner driving on the motorway for the first time after getting their license will be any better.

Agreed. I was comfortable doing 120km/hr on a provisional which is more than can be said for a pensioner with a full licence. I still think the ban makes sense in theory though. If the test waiting lists are ever reduced to something sensible, then it will be mostly highly inexperienced drivers on provisional licences who shouldn't be in fast moving traffic.

There should really be a two-tier test system where you pass your first test and are allowed learn on motorways, but have to do another test before getting your final licence.

bonkey

Stark wrote:

But motorways are designed to have much fewer dangers than standard roads so that an increased speed limit can be justified.

But motorway standards weren't designed in Ireland. Ireland adopted the European standard, where L-drivers being taught on motorways is part of the system. Its judged safe because the overall design of a motorway gives maximum protection to all (responsible) drivers even in the persence of a learner.

Sure, it might be inconvenient to be stuck behind the learner who is driving below the limit, or weaving too much to be safe to overtake, or who's fluffed his on-ramp manoevure and is blocking you getting on safely....but learners are only dangerous to other drivers when those drivers are also not driving responsibly and with suitable caution.

MrPudding

Royale with Cheese wrote:

You really think driving schools would take students onto motorways and get them to drive at 20km/h? I've said before in this thread... driving on motorways should be part of the education/test and L drivers should only be allowed on motorways with a driving school.

Yes it should, but that will not happen under the current system where people can simply just into a car and drive on there own with no obligation to seek training.

I think people look at the learner on motorway ban like they do the driving with accompanied rule.

They look at themselves and, possibly correctly but more than likely incorrectly, are of the opinion that when they were learning to drive they could drive on the motorway and not be accompanied as they were already "legend" drivers. I have seen this personally, even with people that have failed numerous tests. of course they did not fail due to deficiencies in their driving skill, oh no, they were the victim of the dreaded "quota," or the examiner was on her period or had just had a row with husband / wife / lover.

They then transfer this perceived skill they had or have onto other learner drivers. The simple fact is, if you are learning to drive you are probably sh1t. I know I was when I was learning at the begining. Further, some people are ****ter than others.

So, even if these people were amazing drivers and were perfectly ok to drive unaccompanied and on the motorways that does not mean all learners are.

In an environment where a person can have a licence for id purposes and never drive, then get a second one which allows them to drive on their own, we need protection.

People question what is the difference between a learner just before sitting his test and just after passing it, with regards to driving on the motorway? The answer is not very much, except obviously, one is legally allowed to drive on the motorway. But this question is a bit of smoke and mirrors.

The question you should be asking is what is the difference between someone who has just passed their test and someone who has just gotten into a car for the first time. In this case their is quite a lot.

I have no doubt that a person who has been learning for a while and is up to test standard probably has the skills and the confidence to operate reasonably safely on the road. However I have doubt about someone who has never driven before having those skills.

So in this respect the ban is a good thing, it stops, were it enforced, people that absolutely do not have the required skills from being on a road where they would represent a rolling hazard. It is unfortunate, no in my opinion by the way, that other learners drivers get caught in this blanket ban.

Now let me say this. I fully understand that there are some full licence holders that are also a danger and also that the test is a bit rubbish but it is all that we currently have.

MrP

pigeonbutler

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Like many young drivers you seem to have adopted an 'invincible' attitude. Whether you are stopped by Gardaí is irrevelant. The crux of the matter will evolve if you are involved in an accident. You insurance company may legitimately claim that you are driving beyond the legitimate limits of your licence and therefore forfeit your insurance cover (excepting 3rd party).

No I haven't adopted the invincible attitude. That is why I don't want to drive on the roads that are more accident prone if I can avoid it.

Chakar:
To the best of my knowledge you don't drive. Also you live in Dublin so can rely on public transport for getting around. So you don't understand the nature of driving. Sure other drivers SHOULD only overtake me when the circumstances and conditions allow. That's not what really happens though. At least once every 20 mins one drives on a national route they'll meet a lunatic that will be endangering everyone round them by manouvering dangerously.

The law is never perfect, and I'm certainly not going to prioritise obeying the law over maintaining my own safety. Same reason I'd have no qualms about shooting someone that broke into my house if I feared for the safety of me or my loved ones.

Chakar

pigeonbutler wrote:

Chakar:
To the best of my knowledge you don't drive. Also you live in Dublin so can rely on public transport for getting around. So you don't understand the nature of driving. Sure other drivers SHOULD only overtake me when the circumstances and conditions allow. That's not what really happens though. At least once every 20 mins one drives on a national route they'll meet a lunatic that will be endangering everyone round them by manouvering dangerously.

The law is never perfect, and I'm certainly not going to prioritise obeying the law over maintaining my own safety. Same reason I'd have no qualms about shooting someone that broke into my house if I feared for the safety of me or my loved ones.

I'm on my first provisional driving licence and currently learning how to drive. But as you've explained the nature of driving on the national roads, I can empathise with your predicament. Hopefully the standard of driving will improve.

Posy

pigeonbutler wrote:

I'd have no qualms about shooting someone that broke into my house if I feared for the safety of me or my loved ones.

A learner driver with a gun. Eek!

bonkey

pigeonbutler wrote:

So you don't understand the nature of driving.

I find it ironic that someone who is advocating breaking the law as a means of resolving issues they have with the system is saying someone else doesn't understand the nature of driving.

saobh_ie

Swords Limerick is handy enough avoiding motorways, the only poxy bit is once you get close to Dublin.

Just go on the motorway, keep left and keep your eyes open. Pull over for plently of breaks (no on the motorway) as I assume since your asking you haven't spent a long time on a motorway and found out how soul destroying they are.

Bring plenty of CD's and keep a bottle of water and stuff you can munch on in the car. Also make sure all your tires are properly inflated and without defect, it'll make a massive difference to your fuel consumption.

Keep your eyes on the vanisihing point (horizon/furthest piece of tarmac you can see) and flick them over the cars in between, so you know whats going on for the next few kilometers.

That will get you to the M50/M7 interchange, when you join the M50 just drive like a complete mentalist, do the silliest things you can think of at the most inappropiate time.

Seriously, www.viamichelin.com is very good for mapping at certain scales, the regional ones i think. Get yourself a dublin and surrounding area street finder and a good map of the country. Knowing where you are and how far is left can be of huge benefit.

Set off early and plan to stop for a meal somewhere along the route. Basically take it dead handy and come next time you'll be able to hoon it. =D

sternn

Im a learner driver nd iv used the motorways so many times. I have never been stopped even with my L plates up. I think its a bit of a joke the way the guards dont don anything about learner drivers either driving on the motorway or with no licenced driver...although the are a cuple of hundred thousand of us!!!

Stark

I find L-plates are a useless indicator of who's actually driving the car. There are so many fully licenced drivers driving around with L-plates because an offspring or sibling is learning to drive on their car and so many L-drivers who don't bother with plates. The Gardaí would really have to be pulling people at random to check their licences and that would cause loads of hassle on the motorways.

Wishbone Ash

saobh_ie wrote:

keep left and keep your eyes open. Pull over for plently of breaks .... ...... you haven't spent a long time on a motorway and found out how soul destroying they are.... ....Bring plenty of CD's and keep a bottle of water and stuff you can munch on in the car

Jesus, we're talking about a few miles on the M7/M50/M1 - not the Trans Canadian Highway!

saobh_ie

LMAO. I detest motorways, I went spare going from Maynooth to Kinnegad in the car. Just ambling along...

Thankfully any time I've got to cross the country I have the motorbike and I just open that up and amazingly everyone just gets the flock outta the way, the last month or so even before i get my indicator on. I spend the whole trip waving thanks and giving people the thumbs up.

Seriously though, do you remember the first time you spend three hours driving around the country? I did it quite early after starting driving myself, maybe within two months I was up and down to Donegal. It felt like an incredibaly long trip. I'd be mentally & phyiscally exhausted.

I suppose starting off driving is more involved because your thinking about how to drive the car while later all you need to think about is where you need to go, not hitting things and working the vechile becomes instinictive.

Mitch Connor

i have to say i have never (well there was that one 5 hour stint on the M50/M11/N11) had any trouble with the M50 - never been stuck in traffic on it really. Though i do drive it at about 7am and 3.45pm, so i miss the rush.

Stark

I generally avoid the M50 but I often see the queue moving southbound to the toll bridge extending as far back as the N2 exit in the morning. And any time something breaks down/crashes/pulls into the hard shoulder and switches on hazards so everyone can slow down to look, then it causes traffic chaos both on the M50 and on the trunk roads feeding into the M50. (I've often ended up stuck in traffic on the N3 after something happened elsewhere on the M50).

j2u

i have been driving a week and when it comes to roundabouts i get nervous but im reasonably an ok driver now,but anyway im on the mi from balbriggan to ardee 5 days a week and find it much easier and safer than going by back roads.the best tip id give is to say in the slow lane and keep at the speed limit or at least maintain speed with the vehicle in front.thibgs are going smoothly for me so far and most of the guys in my company are provisional drivers and use the motorways daily and have not got any bother.so i reckon you would be alright.

Stark

"A week"? So what you decide is "reasonably ok" driving after only a week's experience?