Nurses Strike?

arctictree

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious but if I was in a union and someone proposed a 10% pay rise, then I'm hardly going to vote against it. Is it the case that the union can't just do nothing and need to be fighting management on something. A 10% pay rise is something that all the members would want...

In my opinion they should be striking for more staff, better equipment, more beds etc ie stuff that would really make a difference to patients...

Villain

Docking pay by 13% for a work to rule is just making the problem worse and its very unfair.

Just to make it clear here my only experience of nurses is from the time I have spend in hospitals over the past 10 years, I don't have any close friends or relatives that are nurses, however I have seen plenty of hospitals over the past 10 years.

Anyone who is a regular poster here will know I have started many threads about MRSA and the problems in our hospitals, the nurses are part of the solution and going to war with them is not going to make things any better, if anyone thinks nurses are well paid I think you need to spend some time in our hospitals. The managment are overpaid and they are the people who have failed to find solutions over the past 10 years. The nurses are working very hard in very difficult situations anyone I have met in hospital has only had positive things to say about how hard the nurses are working.

The HSE should be trying to find middle ground with the INO not putting more obstacles in the way, there are no winners here only losers. I also think the majority of the public support the nurses as the last poll showed.

Dr Galen

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

Nurses get paid for the two years of thier degree spent in hospitals, other grads dont get paid while doing their degree unless there is work experience.
.

this isn't strictly true. student nurses get paid at present for a 12 month placement, which is more or less an internship. A bit like being a junior doctor, thats all. they get 80% of a first year qualified nurses salary. which i will agree is a lot more than a lot of students get, but in saying that they perform more or less the same duties as a qualified nurse. there are obviously duties hat they still require suipervision on though, such as medications and IV's.

Dr Galen

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

Extract from factual info sheet.
An extra 10,207 nurses have been employed in the public health services since 1997 (an increase of 40%). A graduate nurse earns €31,233 as a basic starting salary. On average each nurse can earn an additional 23% in allowances and overtime. The basic starting salary is comparable with starting salaries for teachers and Gardai and the average industrial wage of €31,360. The average annual salary for a whole time equivalent nurse is in excess of €56,000 inclusive of premium payments.

So full time nurses earn on average 56k. This is a fact despite the denials of ino etc.

can i ask where you got your "facts" from? would it be the spin machine of the DOH or the HSEEA?

as this for 56k malarky..........i've explained before, that this is certainly not representative of nurses working in hospitals. I've never met a single nurse (apart from high level management) earning this much, including my own mother,27 years working, with a career in the profession and been a manager for years. if that was the real average salary, jesus even i'd be saying that nurses were being greedy

Dr Galen

arctictree wrote:

€27,035 seems like a good salary for someone recently qualified with a BSc. Also, what makes you think that you should get the average industrial wage when you are just qualified? Maybe after a number of years work....

27k ain't that bad i'll agree. its a hell of a lot better than others, but then think about what a nurse, newly qualified or otherwise has to actually do on a daily basis?

can you name other occupations with the level of professional responsibility or accountability or being a nurse? i mean life or death work here, not meeting sales targets or promoting jobs thus ensuring economic wellbeing.....i mean proper "if i don't do this right this man could die" type of duties.....

Dr Galen

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

A nurse who is in job 20 years could have done further training to progress to more advanced and better paid job or mangement position yet many chose not to do extra training and stay doing broadly same job that they did 5 or 10 or 20 years earlier. .

you'd think this would be the case alright, but sadly its not. If it was I'd actually agree with you. One of the other claims that the unions wanted was that the specialist nursing jobs promised years ago within the Hanly Report and theCommission on Nursing (1998 % 2000 i thinks) would be created. these in themselves would lead to much better usage of skilled nurses and better patient care. despite this being promised many times, it hasn't really happened to the right level. so for the individual nurse, there is actually no where to progress to on a clinical level. unless they go into management........but thats another story, as again there has been a distinct lack of nurses in senior management posts within both hospitals and the HSE. so again, where do the nurses go? And its not because they aren't able for the jobs, if that was the case, I'd again be one of the first to say that it was nurses own faults. I know several people, who have been practically headhunted into Nursing and Health management jobs both in EU/UN positions and in other DOH's in other countries, but yet no positions existed for them here? does that not strike anyone else as an awful waste of resources?

Macy

El Stuntman wrote:

well speaking as someone whose natural home on Boards is the poker forum, I like the way this is playing out....5.30pm tomorrow, we should know who's bluffing and who's got the aces!

Seems the INO/PNA are going to see the 13% and raise it with an overtime ban.

El Stuntman wrote:

apart from irish1, it's interesting that no pro-nurse voices have appeared in this thread in the last few days. Reflective of public opinion?

More reflective of the arguements being done at this stage.

El Stuntman

Macy wrote:

Seems the INO/PNA are going to see the 13% and raise it with an overtime ban.

The INO/PNA are going to ban their members from doing overtime?

interesting move

FlutterinBantam

Doran is obviously going for broke on this one.

Good on ya Harney..stand firm against greed and selfishness.

There is a format there for the public service...its a lot more generous and secure than the private sector,people are far too well informed these days to be won over by bluff and smooth talking union leaders.

reduce me hours and increase me pay!!!!!!

Whooooo do they think they are fooling,not the general public by the reaction to their actions

Dr Galen

it is indeed, not sure what effect it will have but we'll see. i really hope this doesn't turn into a game of brinksmanship, especially from the HSE. they seem to be intent on provoking nurses. I know all that most of only see Liam Doran and Des K on the tv doing their usual thing, but i'll tell you, whether you agree or not, nurses are very very angry that it has got to this stage. They feel pretty pissed on by both the HSE and the Gov. Even if the unions and the HSE etc worked out a deal tomorrow, it still has to be voted on by all the members, and that is from what I see not a certainty

El Stuntman

nurse_baz wrote:

but i'll tell you, whether you agree or not, nurses are very very angry that it has got to this stage. They feel pretty pissed on by both the HSE and the Gov. Even if the unions and the HSE etc worked out a deal tomorrow, it still has to be voted on by all the members, and that is from what I see not a certainty

what are you suggesting here Nurse B, some kind of 'Provisional' movement springing out of the 'Official' Nurses Unions? :rolleyes:

nurses are angry - they should take a long hard look at themselves and their leadership first before turning that anger outwards imo

Dr Galen

Doran is obviously going for broke on this one.

how do you work this one out? AGain, your apparent dislike for Doran gets in the way of your arguments. LD is the spokesperson yes but he certainly isn't calling all the shots. The Executive of the INO and PNA are doing that. They make the decisions on what happens, simple voting system, like most executive type committees, LD doesn't have a vote.....

Good on ya Harney..stand firm against greed and selfishness.

this is exactly the sort of bluff and bluster that u criticise the unions for. How you equate greed and selfishness with a profession like nursing I dunno. And i'm not playing the "nurses are angels" card here. I'm well aware that we're not. But we still, ask anyone who has been in hospital and most times they will speak well of nurses and the sleflessness that goes with the job.

There is a format there for the public service...its a lot more generous and secure than the private sector,people are far too well informed these days to be won over by bluff and smooth talking union leaders.

this would Benchmarking that has already been rejected by 3 or 4 other unions and professional bodies. The one that is being called the only show in town, when there is a history of parallel benchmarking agreements, interim reports giving big pay rises, higher civil service pay agreements and so on. You've fallen for Government spin, again what you critiscise the nurses for.

benchmarking didn't work before and doesn't work now. And in that I would agree that public sector pay has ballooned and that it needs to be brought into line with that of the private sector. but the difference between us, is that you paint the whole public sector with the same, rather large brush, whereas I'd be in favour of comparing like with like......ie accountants with accountants......HR managers with HR managers and so on

Whooooo do they think they are fooling,not the general public by the reaction to their actions

well from talking to people in general and hearing them, I think you might have misjudged the opinion

Dr Galen

what are you suggesting here Nurse B, some kind of 'Provisional' movement springing out of the 'Official' Nurses Unions? :rolleyes:

ha ha no not at all. what I'm pointing out, and its not my own opinon, is that instead of provoking nurses the HSE and deputy Harney should be trying to get this solved. antagonising nurses and making them angry, will just make it harder for the unions to get the members to vote on any deals that might arise.

nurses are angry - they should take a long hard look at themselves and their leadership first before turning that anger outwards imo

like I've just mentioned, the leadership are taking their direction for this campaign from the members at large. nurses are angry in that they feel they have been waiting for the things that they feel they deserve for the longest time, while everyone else around them got what they wanted.

this hasn't all happened overnight, you are aware that talks have been going on for months and months now about all of this. and it was the HSE's own procedures and the timescales set down for them that caused all this to happen right now. in fact discussions over the 35hr week have been going on since 2002. so thats 5 years of talking.....

Iompair

I quickly read through this thread and I'd like to know where this figure of €56,000 as an average figure for a nurses wage came from. If its true then I'll be telling my mother and her friends they're being well shafted.

My mums been a psychiatric nuse for over 25 years now and makes no where near that. Despite working 12 hour shifts for most of her career, missing most christmas's when myself and my sister where growing up, and having to do an amazingly tough job both physically and mentally. I would never put myself through what her and other nurses go through every day.

I'm not sure what the average nurses wage is, but comparing nursing to your average shop/finance/industrial job is short sighted.

El Stuntman

nurses are well paid in comparison to their European compatriots

that's the best comparison we can make imo

Dr Galen

El Stuntman wrote:

nurses are well paid in comparison to their European compatriots

that's the best comparison we can make imo

well see thats not really a fair comparision at all. a nurse in ireland does a very different job say to a nurse in poland or a nurse in the states. there are differing levels of qualifications across Europe too, meaning that you might need the equivalent of a Cert to be a nurse in 1 country and a BSc in another. indeed you've touched on one of the biggest debates right now in Nursing, and thats the equivalence of the nursing qualification. strange as it may seems right now there isn't any, apart from individual agreements between countries. like say Denmark and Sweden.

can I ask who is providing the figures that your quoting regarding nurses salaries? and where they came from?

Macy

El Stuntman wrote:

The INO/PNA are going to ban their members from doing overtime?

interesting move

Standard move. I'm actually surprised it wasn't in already - in most industries, an overtime ban would be part of a work to rule.

Iompair

El Stuntman wrote:

nurses are well paid in comparison to their European compatriots

that's the best comparison we can make imo

Out of curiosity where are would I be able to see average wage figures for nurses across europe? Nothing useful is coming up when I Google it.

Villain

El Stuntman wrote:

nurses are well paid in comparison to their European compatriots

that's the best comparison we can make imo

How about you make the comparison again but thise time provide some facts and links to back it up.

If anyone in the HSE can be accused of greed its managment.

El Stuntman

irish1 wrote:

How about you make the comparison again but thise time provide some facts and links to back it up.

I'm looking, I'm looking - hard to find a reputable source!!

but here's some anectodal evidence to chew over anyway: last year I had occasion to be around a Dublin hospital pretty much non-stop for two weeks.

Lots of the foreign nurses weren't European (lots of Filipinos and Indians etc) but quite a number of them were from other EU countries (I met Spanish, Portugese, Polish, English and German nurses). I had conversations with quite a few of them as to why they had moved to Ireland and I distinctly remember money being the main reason quoted by all (a nice Spanish lady from Seville in particular told me she had increased her salary by over 100% by moving here).
Obviously this is anecdotal etc but I will make it my mission to get some backup this afternoon!

Dr Galen

I'm looking, I'm looking - hard to find a reputable source!!

you'll find it hard to be honest. which like I say is a real problem. as I've explained though there are many reasons for this. right now there are several projects ongoing though to get this information compiled together. funny enough though, its actually being undertaken by nursing groups, not governments. in actual fact, the Irish government were and are very slow to provide the figures when asked, along with other countries, but yet when it suits them they can start throwing the 56k figure around like even the dogs ont he street know this.

Lots of the foreign nurses weren't European (lots of Filipinos and Indians etc) but quite a number of them were from other EU countries (I met Spanish, Portugese, Polish, English and German nurses). I had conversations with quite a few of them as to why they had moved to Ireland and I distinctly remember money being the main reason quoted by all (a nice Spanish lady from Seville in particular told me she had increased her salary by over 100% by moving here).
Obviously this is anecdotal etc but I will make it my mission to get some backup this afternoon!

while I don't doubt what your saying in essence i'd like to point out one r two things. First up, portuguese nurses that I am friends with get paid more than Irish and UK nurses. they also have much better scope for continued progression within the health services.

the Spanish system for nurses is atrocious, they can barely get jobs never mind a decent salary. so I'd be inclined to agree with you that Ireland is more attractive for them, but in 4 years I've met 2 spanish nurses, and thats having worked in a number of places, i wonder why more of them don't come over?

there are currently about thousands ofunemployed young nurses in the UK. they are being forced to work part time or even voluntarily to maintain their registrations an such. again Ireland is obviously better, as well, working and earning is better than not.

Polish and Germans I don't know a lot about their salaries but I can find out for you if you'd like. I'd imagine that for the Poles, a lot of places are more attractive wage wise. I do know that, there are problems with Polish Nurses getting registered here though, as they don't all have the same qualifications etc, which is a shame. I know several Polish nurses, who are working as attendants or cleaners and can't get work over here.

Ardent

darkman2 wrote:

I think the HSE should press on quickly and put the squeeze on Nurses pockets. Begin with the 13% reduction in wages tomorrow for those on strike. Then I think on a weekly basis the reduction in wages should be an extra 13%. Then once the election is over put the full squeeze on and make it a 100% deduction. This will send a clear message to the public service unions in Ireland that our democracy will not be undermined in such a sinister way ahead of a general election with threats and blackmail. There are mechanisms already availabe to nurses.

Agree 100%. I can't believe this dispute is still ongoing, getting angry about it now. The cheek of the nurses to demand a pay rise AND a reduction in hours and go about getting it in this manner, most of us receive similar salaries and work longer hours. Who do they think they are? And just before the election - talk about transparent opportunism!

I have newfound respect for Mary Harney for standing up to these chancers.

FlutterinBantam

Doran has gone for broke on this one.

Don't take people for fools NB, I find your attitude quite irritating and bordering on obnoxious.

There are plenty of people out there ,public and private who work all hours,bank holidays/weekends/Xmas/the whole shebang.

The HSE is a black hole for taxpayers money and the taxpayer is not getting value.

Il'l stop now as i feel if i vent my true feelings on this i will only end up with a ban and that would be my intention.

Harney should dock the wages as money paid for processes agreed to.

Don't do the processes ,don't get the money.

this whole thing sickens me.

Galen

My extended family and I whole heartally support the nurses. My father spent 3 months in hospital between October 2006 and March 2007 during which got the best of care considering he's a public patient.

The best answer for that cow Mary Harney is vote her out of office.

ronbyrne2005

Galen wrote:

My extended family and I whole heartally support the nurses. My father spent 3 months in hospital between October 2006 and March 2007 during which got the best of care considering he's a public patient.

The best answer for that cow Mary Harney is vote her out of office.

Eh, so what if he got best of care and was a public patient! Every person in Ireland pay 3500eur per year in taxes to fund the public health system! So if theres 5 people in your family you 5 are paying 17,500 a year in taxes to pay for this bloated inefficent money pit of a system! I would hope your father received the best of care as the care providers are paid very well(with YOUR money) allready to do that! It s fools like you blindly supporting the largese of the public sector that will get us into a terrible state in the upcoming economic downturn. Receiving the "best of care " while in hospital is not an argument for large widescale payrises that will have a massive knock on effect in other parts of public sector.

As for nurses being among best paid in europe, this is true as Liam Doran would'nt deny it when it was put to him on radio. Also if nurses were much better paid anywhere else in Europe the nurses here would be putting that forward as part of their argument and many would be leaving to work there. The fact is nurses dont realise how good they have it in IReland and think because they now need a degree they are equivalent to more qualified medical professionals. Vast majority of nurse do not have a degree and the introduction of the degree to become a nurse was probably unneccesary and the degree is not equivalent to a normal B.Sc as its more practical than academic.

Galen

He got the best of care from the nurses, his consultant and other doctors. He went in with what was thought to be prostate trouble nearly five months later they found a large mass on his appendix and bowel was almost completely blocked. It took them five months to find a mass larger than my fist.

Hospital Administration is a joke he waited two months to get a bed in Galway instead he collasped again and spent three months in Castlebar hospital. During his many trips to hospital he spent a minimum of ten days on a trolley.

For five months he would be sent home, ten days later he would collapse and be back in hospital with a kidney infection. This happened three or four times.

So I whole heartily support the nurses, there hours should be reduced and considering my life will probably be on the line someday I hope they are getting what they deserve.

I certainly won't be voting for either Fianna Fail or the PDs.

El Stuntman

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

As for nurses being among best paid in europe, this is true as Liam Doran would'nt deny it when it was put to him on radio. Also if nurses were much better paid anywhere else in Europe the nurses here would be putting that forward as part of their argument and many would be leaving to work there. The fact is nurses dont realise how good they have it in IReland and think because they now need a degree they are equivalent to more qualified medical professionals. Vast majority of nurse do not have a degree and the introduction of the degree to become a nurse was probably unneccesary and the degree is not equivalent to a normal B.Sc as its more practical than academic.

Ron I agree with you 100% but can you please post some reputable links to compare nursing salaries across the EU as I cannot find same?

Villain

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

As for nurses being among best paid in europe, this is true as Liam Doran would'nt deny it when it was put to him on radio. Also if nurses were much better paid anywhere else in Europe the nurses here would be putting that forward as part of their argument and many would be leaving to work there. The fact is nurses dont realise how good they have it in IReland and think because they now need a degree they are equivalent to more qualified medical professionals. Vast majority of nurse do not have a degree and the introduction of the degree to become a nurse was probably unneccesary and the degree is not equivalent to a normal B.Sc as its more practical than academic.

Ah so Liam Doran wouldn't deny it so it must be true :rolleyes: how about some facts and links to support the argument rather that just opinion and if you do find figures to support your claim that nurses in Ireland are better paid than others in Europe you will need to compare it to the cost of living because I think you might find Ireland has one of the highest costs of living in Europe.

BTW I don't think nurses are badly paid, I think they are badly paid for the work they do though. I earn about the same as a nurse and while I may work 40 to 50 hours a week in I.T. I certainly would never say I work as hard as a nurse or work in conditions simalar to nurses.

Dr Galen

Doran has gone for broke on this one.

did Liam Doran steal your ice cream when you were a kid? I really don't see what you have against him so much, and why even though its been explained to you several times about how the decisions are made you insist on this line.

I find your attitude quite irritating and bordering on obnoxious.

snap, but then I have to make allowances seeing as your so high up in that saddle of yours :rolleyes:

The HSE is a black hole for taxpayers money and the taxpayer is not getting value.

agreed totally. but i think you need to pointing the finger elsewhere other than nurses. saying that though, i'd definitely like to see nurses doing more and taking on more roles. I think it would be a much better use of resources. In case its passed you by FB since day one nurses have been offering total reform of work practices. But thats doesn't fit with your anti-nurse/public sector/trade union mantra so you ignore it.

you talk about people being taken for fools, man, the only fool I see around here is you, as you've totally been taken in by the HSE/PD spin, and seem unable to open yourself to other positions. Of course I don't expect everyone to agree with me, sure thats life, but at least others here have a less closed off view of the situation

Harney should dock the wages as money paid for processes agreed to.

why was managements money not docked when they caried out a much stricter work to rule only a few years back then?

Dr Galen

The fact is nurses dont realise how good they have it in IReland and think because they now need a degree they are equivalent to more qualified medical professionals. Vast majority of nurse do not have a degree and the introduction of the degree to become a nurse was probably unneccesary and the degree is not equivalent to a normal B.Sc as its more practical than academic

what other medical professionals are you talking about here? while we certainly not as academically qualified as a doctor, in the main thats about it. a nursing degree is equivalent to physio/OT/dietician degree.

As for it not being necessary, well thats open to interpretation. but considering that most of the modern world either has or is moving to this system and it has been backed by research that it is of much benefit to patients then I'd say it is.

your comment about it not being equivalent. nursing students have approx 10 weeks of placement a year for 3.5 years and then an internship at the end for a year on average. thats hardly over the top.