Nurses Strike?

Padraig Mor

http://www.examiner.ie/breaking/story.asp?j=14261380&p=y4z6y4z6&n=14261468

"My salary is €44,000 a year and I have to budget very hard, like all of you - your mortgage, your children going to college, you want to change your car. My new car is four years old, much like the rest of you."

Those poor nurses! Imagine having to drive around in a four year old car? The shame of it!

tallaght01

Why is El Stuntman so obsessed with European nursing wages? As somebody has already pointed out, the cost of living in Ireland is ridiculously high, so it's fair enough that they earn more than their European counterparts (if indeed they do).
I earn less as a doctor in the UK than I would earn as a doc in Ireland. That's fair enough as my cost of living is lower over here. I'm off to work in New Zealand/Oz later this year, where I'll earn less again.

I support the nurses. I don't believe they'll get the reduction in hours and the pay rise. I don't think they even believe they will. I assume it's a negotiation starting point.

It's a hell of a tough job, and I think they deserve a very good salary. I think it's a shame that front line healthcare providers can't afford to live near the hospitals in which they work.
Also, if they're not adequately rumunerated, then we risk losing the most senior nurses (who've hit the pay ceiling) into management, where they spend the rest of their career swanning about in power suits holding clipboards, instead of looking after patients.

I'm not sure why people get so wound up about nurses being paid as students. Nursing students do very valuable work in hospital. When I was a student, I was there to observe and learn. I had no obligation to do any of the day to day running of any ward. That's why I wasn't paid. Nursing students who are in the final stage of their course have a lot of responsibility, and thus are paid for it. I think that's reasonable. When I was a biomedical sciences undergraduate, we all went out to industry for our "sandwhich year" and essentially worked as junior techs in a lab. We got paid for it. That's standard practise.

Somebody also compares their pay to teachers. Do teachers not work less hours than nurses?

I'm also bewildered by all the comparisons of nurses pay to random salaries of boards members! The kind of "They earn 44k?? They should be delighted. I earn half of that" kind of comment. So what if you earn less. Why should that mean that nurses should accept rubbish conditions. Their union is there to represent their interests, as are all our unions.

The comment about the 4 year old car is just the poster's attempt at stirring it up. I don't think the nurse was complaining about it. She was just highlighting the fact that she's not loaded.

I'm rambling now :P so I'll get me coat

FlutterinBantam

you talk about people being taken for fools, man, the only fool I see around here is you, as you've totally been taken in by the HSE/PD spin, and seem unable to open yourself to other positions. Of course I don't expect everyone to agree with me, sure thats life, but at least others here have a less closed off view of the situation

Foolish people may be taken by your rhetoric but myself and quite a few contributers in the Forum see the Nurses actions for what they are.

A blatant solo run bu an opportunistic union who thought the Govt. would fold under pressure,and who's attitude seems to be: We want more mon ey,we want to work less hours and if that flies in the face of agreed public pay procedures ,sure to hell with it. The public think the nurses are great.

I'm quite sure your flowery rhetoric goes down with ill informed people who are blinded with figures and stats, but I for one know a naked display of greed and selfishness when i see one,and i don't need you or anyone else to "open myself " to any other conclusion.

mickoneill30

Anybody hear Mary Harney Vs The Fine Gael spokesman for health (can't remember his name) on Newstalk this morning? The Fine Gael guy really had nothing to say and only did his party damage I think. In fairness to him though I don't think he could have said much. I don't see them giving into the nurses either.

El Stuntman

Padraig Mor wrote:

My new car is four years old, much like the rest of you."

is she saying we have 4 year-old nurses? surely there's a law against this!

on a side note, how can you have a 'new' car that's '4 years old'?

I see the INO/PNA are going to go nuclear next week with this whole thing, glad I'll be out of the country...

is_that_so

Given the "escalation" over the last week, I am beginning to wonder where this will end. As some posters have mentioned it is wearisome and needs to be resolved, hopefully by common sense on both parts.

It also becomes less effective the longer it goes on. You could find it going from "We support the nurses" to "Are they still at it?".
I also think the nurses are also deluded about the political power they wield.
Whoever they have to deal with after the election will not back down.

I also have one question , when does a work stoppage cease to be a work stoppage and become classified as a strike?

It really is starting to turn into an exercise in semantics. Although I imagine using the "S" word would lose the nurses support very quickly.

Mitch Connor

nurse_baz wrote:

what other medical professionals are you talking about here? while we certainly not as academically qualified as a doctor, in the main thats about it. a nursing degree is equivalent to physio/OT/dietician degree.

As for it not being necessary, well thats open to interpretation. but considering that most of the modern world either has or is moving to this system and it has been backed by research that it is of much benefit to patients then I'd say it is.

your comment about it not being equivalent. nursing students have approx 10 weeks of placement a year for 3.5 years and then an internship at the end for a year on average. thats hardly over the top.

my girlfriend is a recently qualified nurse, having got a degree in nursing and now becoming a qualified pediatric nurse, all of which has taken about 6 years. I can assure you she spent a lot more then 10 weeks a year on placement, in the last 18 months, while doing the pediatric course, i would say the majority of that has been on wards, 6 weeks on one ward, six weeks on the next and so on.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

future_plans

Neither this Govenrment nor the next can give in to these demands. If the working hours are reduced, then extra resources must obviously be made available to cover these. This could probably be achieved over time. The militant stance of the nurses unions does not help this process.

With regards to the pay increases, if nurses achieve their aims here, then it is only a matter of time before other public sectors such as education pursue similar routes. This will destroy the current benchmarking/partnership and ultimately destroy the economy. As previosuly mentioned in this thread, the cost of living is already high here. Many companies are already leaving. Giving tinto the nurses demands will lead to demands for increases across the public sector. This fuels inflation. This filters rising costs through to the private sector.

tallaght01

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Now, I never argued that nurses should get more pay because of the higher cost of living here. I think they deserve the pay rise based on their productivity. I argued that comparisons to nurses in other countries weren't relevant, because of the different costs of living. Most of you get more money than you would in most other european countries for that reason.

future_plans

Nurses also shouln't be so fast to believe that Enda will change anything because he cannot. So going on what he said yesterday, either:

1) He is lying and knows he cannot give in to these demands...

or...

2) He will give in to these changes with dire consequences

mickoneill30

future_plans wrote:

Nurses also shouln't be so fast to believe that Enda will change anything because he cannot. So going on what he said yesterday, either:

1) He is lying and knows he cannot give in to these demands...

or...

2) He will give in to these changes with dire consequences

In fairness all he said is that he'll take charge and have negotiations. That's basically conceding nothing. Only the Greens so far have said they'll bend over (so I definitely won't be voting for them).

future_plans

mickoneill30 wrote:

In fairness all he said is that he'll take charge and have negotiations. That's basically conceding nothing. Only the Greens so far have said they'll bend over (so I definitely won't be voting for them).

Trying to charm them with fanciful ideas.

mickoneill30

future_plans wrote:

Trying to charm them with fanciful ideas.

That's his job though. I'm not a FG supporter but I think he's doing all he can. He can't concede to them but he can dangle the carrot in front of them. That's all any of the sensible partys can do.

El Stuntman

tallaght01 wrote:

Now, I never argued that nurses should get more pay because of the higher cost of living here. I think they deserve the pay rise based on their productivity.

but are our nurses really that productive?

in France (which is generally held up as a shining example of a heath system that works), they have 7.3 nurses per 1,000 of population? OECD average is 8.5

in Ireland the equivalent number is 12.2 (i.e. we have 67% more nurses per head of population than France). So we have lots more nurses but a far less productive health system. Surely the nurses must take their share of the blame for this?

explain please how these bloated numbers are so productive....

tallaght01

Well, I'm no expert in nursing number crunching, but if you're going to post figures like this you should ask:

1) Are they all full time/full time equivalent

2) How ill are the patients?

3) How many support workers do they have to help them

4) Are our private hospital figures included in that number

Essentially, we need to compare like with like. For eg, if France has a stack of rehab homes/nursing homes that we don't have, then the figures will be skewered.
You can't look at figures like that in isolation. France spend more than 10% of it's GDP on healthcare, so there's likely to be a better support infrastructure for nurses, plus their preventative health system means their patients might be less ill in the first place.

FlutterinBantam

heh heh I'm listening to Pat Kenny here and smiling to myself.

You have teachers mailing in to say the nurses have it easy and nurses mailing in to say what would teachers know about hard work and stress!!!

There in a nutshell you have it.

Two secure pensionable public sector jobs,well paid by todays standards,arguing about what share of the taxpayers cake they can eat.

I am not PD/FG/FF/SF/green or any other party,but I do know this...

I will be voting No.1 for any party who can stand up for the taxpayer and call a halt to this naked averice.

Fine,I'll work my ass off to pay VHI ,income tax ,and all the other peripheries ,so as nurses, teachers et al don't have to drive around in 4 year old cars,and then watch them sit back in retirement with index linked pensions,while I ponder the thousands I pumped into the state coffers,to eke out an existance.

Sorry Liam-your race it run with this pullet

El Stuntman

FlutterinBantam wrote:

heh heh I'm listening to Pat Kenny here and smiling to myself.

that must be a first

you are right though, the public sector culture of entitlement and cushy numbers needs to be tackled head on. It's a shame the only party with the moral fibre to do it is about to get voted out of existence....

future_plans

FlutterinBantam wrote:

I will be voting No.1 for any party who can stand up for the taxpayer and call a halt to this naked averice.

Fine,I'll work my ass off to pay VHI ,income tax ,and all the other peripheries ,so as nurses, teachers et al don't have to drive around in 4 year old cars,and then watch them sit back in retirement with index linked pensions,while I ponder the thousands I pumped into the state coffers,to eke out an existance.

I agree. I do not think they have the electoral backing that they think they have. I have nurses in my family, but I don't agree with what they are asking for nor do I agree with what they are doing to obtain it.

mickoneill30

What'll happen if this isn't resolved before the election. They won't be able to threaten voting for other parties after the election. That'll be one huge bargaining chip gone.

FlutterinBantam

El Stuntman wrote:

that must be a first

you are right though, the public sector culture of entitlement and cushy numbers needs to be tackled head on. It's a shame the only party with the moral fibre to do it is about to get voted out of existence....

Au contraire....:)

The public sector "safety net" needs to be brought into the equation.

Public sector workers are very slow to extrapolate conditions with any kind of value.

A lot of them quite frankly in my experience take the ordinary Joe in the street as some kind of uninformed idiot whom they can "blind with science" and sway an argument with figures and stats.

I think they will find out that the man/woman in the street isn't as stupid as they think,and that pay and condition improvements must be paid for by MEASUREABLE productivity,not any auld crap that never comes into operation anyway.

they expect the Govt. to "name a day" for 35 hour week:D

What would happen... endlesssssssssssssssssss meetings about nothing,meetings about meeting about nothing, meetings about meeetings about nothing about meetings about nothing.

heh heh... At least Harney knocked that one on the head

tallaght01

so what's the most accurate, reliable and reproducible way to measure nursing productivity?

Villain

Guess how many hours Brendan Drum and his colleagues in HSE management work?? Yep 35!!

The cheek of them, its nearly funny.

ronbyrne2005

irish1 wrote:

Guess how many hours Brendan Drum and his colleagues in HSE management work?? Yep 35!!

The cheek of them, its nearly funny.

Any high level manager may be contracted for 35 hr week but in reality work 50 or 60 hrs a week. And a newsflash for you, Nurses arent senior managers! if they want the salaries or conditions of senior managers then get the qualifications and experience to get usch a job. My father works 39 hr week as a paramedic+fireman , rescuing people, resucitating people dealing with most of same issues as nurses and his boss works 35hr week on 9-5basis but he is not complaining. The fact is 70% of people in health system are on 39hr week and its not as if those on 39 only get paid for 35. This is more about nurses looking as physios and doctors and saying "we now have more responsibility and have a degree so we demand to be equivalent to other workers in same system even if our jobs are completely different". Now ,aybe I would support them if they just wanted a 35hr week phased in as resources allowed but they want an effective 32% from an allready high level!!!!! Nurses in NHS get less and taxes are also higher in UK making their salary much lower with similar or higher cost of living although they have 37.5hr week.

bandraoi

Well if you want to start comparing nurses salaries to European salaries it's actually incredibly easy.
The nursing union websites all have pay charts on them.

The Irish one is here:
http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977

Here is the UK one
http://www.rcn.org.uk/agendaforchange/payconditions/pay/pay2006.php

I'm sure the French/Spanish/German ones are available too if anyone would care to look and translate.

knird evol

Is it not hilarious the way nurses keep going on about their four year
degree like they are highly qualified scientists or something. Everybody has
degrees now. People don't even study in the evening for degrees anymore - they are studying at master or phd level. All school leavers go to college. A degree is the equivalent of the junior cert a few years ago. You can even buy them off the internet.

fly_agaric

nurse_baz wrote:

well from talking to people in general and hearing them, I think you might have misjudged the opinion

I would have thought telling you, Nurse Baz, that the nurses efforts to get both a pay hike and an hours reduction by putting the politicians balls in a vice just before the election is greedy opportunism might not be politic! Or safe even!:)

sam34

nurse_baz wrote:

this isn't strictly true. student nurses get paid at present for a 12 month placement, which is more or less an internship. A bit like being a junior doctor, thats all.
.

totally different. junior doctors are qualified doctors, not students.

sam34

nurse_baz wrote:

can you name other occupations with the level of professional responsibility or accountability or being a nurse? i mean life or death work here, not meeting sales targets or promoting jobs thus ensuring economic wellbeing.....i mean proper "if i don't do this right this man could die" type of duties.....

Oh please. lets call a spade a spade. what lifesaving work do the nurses do? intubating? no. draining a pneumothorax? no. administering emergency drugs like adrenaline? no. cardioversion? no. (some ICU nurses do the last two, but the majority of nurses dont, and if the ICU nurses are doing that they are certainly not acting alone with sole responsibility).
checking pulse/bp/temp/resp is not a life or death thing. neither is changing IV bags, catheter bags, stoma bags, dressing wounds, administering tablets etc. things can go wrong dramatically in a situation like adding potassium to an iv, but if a nurse is doing this they get a nursing colleague to double check and countersign what theyre doing. or else they get the doctor to do it, because they "havent done the course/ arent covered/ arent happy" to do it.
from my experience and that of so many of my colleagues, nurses have relatively little responsibility. all they have to do is recognise when someones condition is deteriorating, and call the doctor. the nurse doesnt have to figure out whats wrong and how to fix it, they just have to recognise that "something" is not right. not a lot to ask of a nurse.

Wishbone Ash

knird evol wrote:

All school leavers go to college

I see that you're well informed Love Drink. :rolleyes: