Nurses Strike?

Villain

It would appear the UK Nurses are looking for more pay too, an interesting campaign is taking place today: http://www.maydayfornurses.com/

FlutterinBantam

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I see that you're well informed Love Drink. :rolleyes:

His other nick is "Mr Original"

belly

wont be long now before the the consultants start acting up aswell their claims are even more farcical . have to say fair play to harney for standing up to the nurses/consultants unions hopefully who ever gets in to gov in may will finish what she started.

Dr Galen

Tauren wrote:

my girlfriend is a recently qualified nurse, having got a degree in nursing and now becoming a qualified pediatric nurse, all of which has taken about 6 years. I can assure you she spent a lot more then 10 weeks a year on placement, in the last 18 months, while doing the pediatric course, i would say the majority of that has been on wards, 6 weeks on one ward, six weeks on the next and so on.

your right on this, but what she did was a post grad course. for the basic full time nursing degree its between 10 and 12 weeks of placement per year for the first 3 years ad then the internship between year 3 and 4.
i think you've picked me up wrong as I was defending the very qualifications that your girlfriend has spent six years working on. a different poster was asserting that they were indeed not worth as much as other courses because of the practical aspects

FlutterinBantam

Interesting article in todays Sindo stating that almost half the full time HSE nurses and Mid-Wives in the Mis West region earn over 60k pa......

And they are looking for more...............:eek:

There's a lot of anger out there;)

El Stuntman

what is the latest on this - 'all out war' (whatever that piece of insane hyperbole means) was being threatened by the Angels of Mercy on Friday afternoon?

(at that point I switched my brain off for the weekend)

so, what is their plan for this week?

Mitch Connor

nurse_baz wrote:

your right on this, but what she did was a post grad course. for the basic full time nursing degree its between 10 and 12 weeks of placement per year for the first 3 years ad then the internship between year 3 and 4.
i think you've picked me up wrong as I was defending the very qualifications that your girlfriend has spent six years working on. a different poster was asserting that they were indeed not worth as much as other courses because of the practical aspects

it must have changed recently - as i think she only did a 3 year general course, with a lot of that on the wards; certainly was a year internship at the end of it.

mickoneill30

I heard on Newstalk today that Engineering is a good area to get into in college because recently qualified engineers come out of college and start at the higher rates of 28K - 30K (the average they said was 24K - 26K). What do newly qualified nurses get again?

FlutterinBantam

31,233 exclusive of premium earnings that accrue to an average of 23% extra.

Sundays ans Public Holidays paid at double time.

aidan24326

I for one thtink the nurses need to pull their horns in and shut up. I can't believe anyone supports this nonsense. Having the rag sun newspaper with screaming headlines like 'pay our nurses now' and all this gibberish doesn't help either.

It's a fact that nurses are already quite well paid for what they do, it's pretty decent money when overtime is taken into account. For a job that is not rocket science (whatever the likes of nurse baz would have us believe). The 35 hour week is a different issue. I don't understand why anyone in the public sector only works 35 hour weeks. Why? Everybody else does 39+.

The 35 hour issue is a tricky one, the pay issue isn't. Nurses have already had their public sector rises under benchmarking. End of. I hope Harney and whoever might be in the job thereafter don't back down an inch on this. Let the nurses strike all they want. Public sympathy is already waning.

El Stuntman

aidan24326 wrote:

I hope Harney and whoever might be in the job thereafter don't back down an inch on this. Let the nurses strike all they want. Public sympathy is already waning.

I agree with your sentiments but it seems very unlikely that Mary H will be back in the job after the election (more's the pity)

does anyone know who are the likely replacements and more importantly, have they got any backbone? Dr Liam Twomey would appear to be the FG candidate, who else would be on the various parties shortlists?

FF - no obvious candidate? Labour - Liz McManus?

realistically it looks like McManus or Twomey. Not sure if I would trust McManus to hold the line and Twomey is an unknown (to me anyway)

aidan24326

El Stuntman wrote:

I agree with your sentiments but it seems very unlikely that Mary H will be back in the job after the election (more's the pity)

If FF get into government again, which is a definite possibility, then Harney might just keep the job. There aren't many obvious alternatives, and I don't imagine any of Fianna Fail's more prominent names would be queuing up to take the poison chalice.

Her performance in the job has been a mixed bag though. I like the fact that she's been strong on the nurse issue and that she's tackling (or trying to at least) the consultant mafia. But the new contract she's drawn up for these new consultant posts is fatally flawed (I've seen a rough draft of it, a friend who's a doc) and she has insisted on advertsising these jobs despite the fact that the IMO has instructed it's members not to apply for them. Whoever is health minister in the coming months is going to have a major headache with that issue along with the nurse problem.

El Stuntman

aidan24326 wrote:

If FF get into government again, which is a definite possibility, then Harney might just keep the job. There aren't many obvious alternatives, and I don't imagine any of Fianna Fail's more prominent names would be queuing up to take the poison chalice.

I think it would be quite funny to whisper 'Minister for Health' in Micheal Martin's ear and watch his reaction....he really looked like he enjoyed his time there. Ditto for Biffo...

aidan24326

The problem began when they made nursing into a degree course. It shouldn't be. It should have been left as a cert. or diploma or whatever it was.

Now nurses are gone all high and mighty speaking of themseves as 'professionals' where they used to be seen primarily as carers. I agree that specialist nurses (like in ICU) are pretty skilled but the routine ward work done by most nurses does not require a degree level qualification.

FlutterinBantam

Shrewd observation there Aidan.

Lot of truth in that post.

sam34

aidan24326 wrote:

The problem began when they made nursing into a degree course. It shouldn't be. It should have been left as a cert. or diploma or whatever it was.

Now nurses are gone all high and mighty speaking of themseves as 'professionals' where they used to be seen primarily as carers. I agree that specialist nurses (like in ICU) are pretty skilled but the routine ward work done by most nurses does not require a degree level qualification.

amen aidan. im still waiting for nurse baz to reply to my earlier post and tell me what exactly is the life saving work and life-or-death decisions that nurses do. i suspect i'll be waiting a while...

thebitterpill

sam34 wrote:

amen aidan. im still waiting for nurse baz to reply to my earlier post and tell me what exactly is the life saving work and life-or-death decisions that nurses do. i suspect i'll be waiting a while...

I think the question of life saving doesn't come into the equation because there is no evidence to my knowledge to support that a 39 hour work week impairs decision making or concentration in any way whatsover.

Though I do feel nurses do a lot of important and vital jobs, I don't think they can claim that a 39 hour work week is going to affect their ability to do those jobs in a negative manner.

mickoneill30

thebitterpill wrote:

Though I do feel nurses do a lot of important and vital jobs, I don't think they can claim that a 39 hour work week is going to affect their ability to do those jobs in a negative manner.

Are they claiming that though? I thought they wanted the 35 hour week because other groups have it (even less of a valid reason IMO).

sam34

thebitterpill wrote:

I think the question of life saving doesn't come into the equation because there is no evidence to my knowledge to support that a 39 hour work week impairs decision making or concentration in any way whatsover.

Though I do feel nurses do a lot of important and vital jobs, I don't think they can claim that a 39 hour work week is going to affect their ability to do those jobs in a negative manner.

what im asking for is nurse baz to tell us what these life saving jobs and life or death decisions that baz claims they are doing/making. im not aware of them.thats why im questioning his statements on that matter. whether they can do their job in a 39 hr week is, to me, a no brainer.

future_plans

All of this has been caused by the unions and I sympathize with the nurses themselves to an extent. The unions have gradually whipped the nurses up into this frenzy and convinced them that their demands are just and achievable. So of course, when they are not getting the desired responses from the HSE and Ms Harney, we see these rash and almost delirious responses from them. They cannot fathom how they will not get these demands after what they have been told by union reps in work and at the various conferences.

I cannot believe some sections of the media agree with their demands and perhaps want to incite more conflict. Most people I know work in the private sector and 100% of them are against the nurses demands. But the nurses are in their own unionized bubble and cannot comprehend this fact.

Villain

sam34 wrote:

what im asking for is nurse baz to tell us what these life saving jobs and life or death decisions that baz claims they are doing/making. im not aware of them.thats why im questioning his statements on that matter. whether they can do their job in a 39 hr week is, to me, a no brainer.

I tell you what my Father would be dead if wasn't for the nurses of one of Dublins hospitals, thats a fact that Doctors have told us too.

Belittle the nurses jobs all you want but the doctors wouldn't have a hope of doing their jobs without them, as for the comment

Now nurses are gone all high and mighty speaking of themseves as 'professionals'

You must have met very different nurses than I did and I was visting hospital once to twice a week for over a year in 97/98 and again for 4 months last year. Anyone who has been unlucky enough to have a serious illness and spend a long time in our hospital will tell you imo the same as I have.

The 35 hour week will be introduced along with improved work practices its not as if the nurses are just getting reduced hours and the HSE are getting nothing in return.

future_plans

irish1 wrote:

I tell you what my Father would be dead if wasn't for the nurses of one of Dublins hospitals, thats a fact that Doctors have told us too.

I am sure he did. My own mother has received excellent treatment from nurses also. And this is exactly what they are already paid excellently to do.

My children are also thought and treated excellently under poor enough conditions in schools. And the teachers are also paid handsomely for this job.

As for the 35-hour week. I don't think this has been ruled out by anybody, but it cannot be just railroaded into the existing structure. It will take a lot of time to accomodate such a change and the militant approach of the nurses on the issue is not going to make it an instant reality. It is a good few years away and that is the reality.

sam34

irish1 wrote:

I tell you what my Father would be dead if wasn't for the nurses of one of Dublins hospitals, thats a fact that Doctors have told us too.

Belittle the nurses jobs all you want but the doctors wouldn't have a hope of doing their jobs without them, as for the comment

You must have met very different nurses than I did and I was visting hospital once to twice a week for over a year in 97/98 and again for 4 months last year. Anyone who has been unlucky enough to have a serious illness and spend a long time in our hospital will tell you imo the same as I have.

The 35 hour week will be introduced along with improved work practices its not as if the nurses are just getting reduced hours and the HSE are getting nothing in return.

your account of your fathers treatment and your experience from visiting hospitals doesnt mean much to me, tbh. ive worked with many nurses in many hospitals over many years, and thats what im basing my opinion on.

aidan24326

irish1 wrote:

I tell you what my Father would be dead if wasn't for the nurses of one of Dublins hospitals, thats a fact that Doctors have told us too.

No-one denies that nurses do a worthwhile job and most if not all of us have experience of hospital either as a patient or through a close family member being a patient and the treatment and care provided by nurses is, on the whole, pretty good in what isn't always the easiest of working conditions.

But that's somewhat beside the point. Nurses are already being fairly well paid for what they do, and have signed up to the benchmarking process which grants public sector workers some quite generous pay rises in comparison to what those in the private sector get (which is sometimes nothing). The nurses now want to bust out of that benchmarking agreement. It's typical public sector union behaviour.

Belittle the nurses jobs all you want but the doctors wouldn't have a hope of doing their jobs without them

I don't think anyone is belittling them, just calling a spade a spade and questioning why nurses who are already well-paid compared to the EU average are greedily looking for more cash, and a few extra hours off while you're at it.

And stating that doctors couldn't do their jobs without nurses is only as obvious as it is pointless. It's a bit like saying that a structural engineer wouldn't have a job without someone to turn his design into a building (i.e the builders). Healthcare requires a team of people that also includes the lab technicians, equipment techs, physios, occupational therapists etc etc right down to the porters. I don't see the point you're trying to make or what relevance it has to the nurse's pay demands.

tallaght01

sam34 wrote:

what im asking for is nurse baz to tell us what these life saving jobs and life or death decisions that baz claims they are doing/making. im not aware of them.thats why im questioning his statements on that matter. whether they can do their job in a 39 hr week is, to me, a no brainer.

Sam34, saving a life doesn't begin an end witht he doc who puts the ET tube intot he sick patient, or who cardioverts the periarrest patient. The nurses are part of a team that, in most cases, works together to save that life. They're the people who have the obs done for you in A+E so you can make the decision about treatent. They're the people who filter out the well from the sick in triage. We're a team. They don't work the long hours we do, or have the same qualifications, but to imply that they don't do any lifesaving work is somwhat short sighted in my opinion.
Plus not all life saving is done in the acute phase. The chronic care, helping people to feed so they become much stronger, liasing with social work etc, it all saves lives somewhere down the line.

thebitterpill

i think maybe sam's experience is a bit affected by the fact that he has worked in psych the last few years, and the roles of nurses in psych and gen med are very different. To be perfectly honest my opinion of the nursing profession took a big dive during my experience in psychiatry, mainly due to the severe resistance I met any time i tried to reduce anyone's anti-psychotic/sedative meds, as well as what I felt was a disparaging and disrespectful attitude towards teh mentally ill by medical staff. Still, it's important not to tar all with the same brush.

All that being said, nurses do do life saving work even in the acute phase. Many senior nurses run arrests in A&E's depending in hospitals etc.

FlutterinBantam

Aaah,looks like Doran has had some sense bet into him at last.

Backing down from the grandiose 35/10.5% plan which the dogs in the street knew could never be a runner.

Lets hope common sense now prevails and the taxpayer returns to getting value for money,and these crazy solo runs with unrealistic demands are put away for a while.

Individually nurses do a great job but must be concious of not being led by the nose by attention seeking and self agrandising people.

Villain

Looks more like the National Implentation Body were given more room to make an offer that could be considered, the NIB only offered a 38 hour week with no date previously so offering a 37.5 hour week by June next year and then the group setup to see how a 35 hour week can be achieved reporting back within 6 months. Both sides have moved here not just the Unions.

FlutterinBantam

heh heh.... Doran got the bolthole he needed.

Couple of weeks ago he was trumpeting on every radio programme he could access,and that was a lot, that its a 35 hr week,name the date and a pay increase of 10%

Totally unrealistic and an insult to the taxpayers intelligence, and a total misread of public opinion.

Nurses do terrific jobs individually,and we are all in their debt,but hey,let's not try to con the public with cries of "downtrodden" and suchlike.

Public are not that ill informed.

Rock Climber

Well the 35hr week basic was always possible if the HSE admins just put a bit of work into rehashing schedules.

The real con job here is that they want a 35hr basic but thats a round about way of getting more overtime as they'll all do the usual hours no doubt.