Nurses Strike?

is_that_so

nurse_baz wrote:

is_that_so wrote:

You do so by identifying acceptable standards and targets exactly the way the private sector does. So for example a nurse with one year's experience would be expected to perform certain tasks competently. If S/he does then they are rewarded. Now if and it's a pretty big if , nurses are prepared to do that for their 10% then I see nothing wrong with their claim.

its a decent idea but the problem you have and especially with nurses that it is very much an experietial thing. I may have seen something 5 times in a year, you may have seen in never in the same period.

nurses have to be competant in what they do at all times, so again, measuring competance maybe wouldn't be a good marker. its not really like in other jobs, where someone who is 5 years qualified will have a different job role to someone 2 years qualified. you will both get your patients when you come in to work and have to go through all the same stuff with them as such.

it may beinteresting though, for greater minds than me though, to look at maybe making bonuses contingent or in part contingent, on increased knowledge or career development. u must do x courses and gain x amount of points in order to get bonuses. the only problem being, that when you start to get into this sort of thing, people tend to look more at targets and fulfilling them than quality of service,( look at the NHS) and in health that can be very dangerous

Yes agreed on targets. It ignores the nature of health care. The ability of employees coupled with ongoing training might be a way to address that.
My point does assume that nurses or anyone else for that matter must meet minimum acceptable standards for a given level. These are things you can set down and measure.

Dr Galen

well thats true. I'm sure if enough heads got together they could knock something together that would work.

with regards to public sector reform though, i'd love to see the whole thing reformed and investigated. even as a public sector employee i can see that there is room for huge savings to be made across the board.

is_that_so

ballooba wrote:

Aha, that's the crux of it. To assume this is to over simplify. Evaluation is a form of power which people can subject themselves to or resist. Given that there is a poor working relationship with the government then people are likely to resist.

Any form of measurement is open to manipulation. This would be seen as playing the system.

That is getting dangerously close to scientific management. Breaking people's jobs down into little tasks that they must perform. Again people will play the system, they will only do things that are measured. You will never get a list of tasks that are all encompassing. You destroy morale and you begin to hear things like: "It's naw in mee jawb disscripshun".

Most systems that fail come from a combination of poor design and poor managers. There are sensible ways to do these things where everyone benefits. A scenario like this is the perfect opportunity to get everything out on the table.

What's your answer to it so if you dismissing "setting standards"?

Dr Galen

see this is the issue, nurses have their "standards" as such set by the nursing board, and in that are bound by leglislation to practice properly etc etc. we have to re-register every year with the board.

i just can't see many ways to mesaure performance of people like nurses or teachers directly. your point about poor managers is a good one though, maybe thats a major problem throughout the health service. we really don't seem to have a strong management culture in this country across the public sector

EDO

Well Folks - having the watched and listened to the news tonight and tried really hard to read between the lines and looking at the polarised debate here slowly degenerate into a them versus us tennis match - public v private sector - a phenomenon that is sadly getting more and more common these days - I really dont know what to think anymore.

One thing that is clear however is that our public sectors are in crisis and suffering from appalling morale issues, everything else aside and not one single party, the unions , the specialists , the management and the goverment are without fault in all this.

the biggest thing I can see here is the appalling level of distrust between staff and the management. This has been the case here in Ireland for many years - its nothing new and is widespread in Public sector going on chats I 've had with friends and acquaintenances who work there. Despite all the clever spinning from both sides in this conflict - its still us versus them and a managment and union confrontational approach I thought had gone out with the dinosaurs - probably in the usual calculated hope that this brinkmanship will provoke the great fudger himself to intervene , with the impending general election in mind, whisper sweet nothings in everybodys ear, slide a few quid under the counter and out of sight of me - Joe Bloggs taxpayer and put the issue on the long finger until it all breaks out again a few months after the election.

Coming from the private sector as I do - If a similar situation arose there - simple answer - fire the managment - simple as that. However things are more complicated in the public sector and until some government, or the people select a government , who has the courage to take on all the vested interests in this area , nothing will change.

The public sector unions have too much say in the running of the public and civil service - their role should be limited to pay and conditions of their members period. With all this partnership nonsense - the unions have been given way too much influence and interference in the way our country is run. The celtic tiger was built in the non union sector of our economy - we have the EU to look after our working conditions , and all the partnership pay agreements mean diddly squat if you work in the private sector - its not complusory and believe me in the worsening economic global economic climate there are few employers who will give pay rises without serious efforts in cost control and productivity - I totally agreed with Jim McDaid when he said recently that worker are not automatically entitled to a pay rise just for turning up and being there. (by the way I am a contribution defined private sector employee - not an owner or director)

turning back to the nurses dispute - If the issue was solely, as is being highlighted , about the failure of an anomaly in the staff nurse -helper pay differential to be addressed - then Im in fully support of the nurses - but I feel this is most publicity friendly issue of a host of demands being bundled together - the most dangerous being that unions are being given more influence in how the service is run - this should not be in the unions purview and the HSE should resist it strongly.

Now the HSE have a hell of a lot to answer for here - The Health Service is probably the worst example of the empire building that has taken place in our public service since the we started throwing billions at it. On the EU scale of efficency Ireland is right up there will those super public delivery machines such as Greece and Italy - yep, on bang for buck, we are the 3rd worst in the EU27. This should be laid at the door of management - the incompetence displayed by those who call themselves "managers" in the HSE is breathtaking - particularly from a private sector perspective. Where is the responsibility, where is the planning , why are small issues allowed explode in to Nationwide strikes - why can't the hospitals be cleaned properly?, why is it so hard to roster staff properly , why can't resources be used efficiently and turned around quickly and easily to deal with urgent issues - this is bread and butter stuff for the private sector - where the hell does the buck stop? - from all parties in this dispute - all I hear is "its their fault" "We'll do this when they do that and the others do this etc etc etc" - Jeez Paisley and Adams got it together faster than this.

I despair - I used to think that Health , transportation and education was one area where the public sector did a better and more efficient job than the private sector - then again I used to live in France and Germany and for contrast the USA - living back here since 2001 is turning me into a die-hard thatcherite - This Dispute - too many inflexible vested interests unwilling to move an inch for the betterment of all - We need a serious shakeup here - the public service is not an employment agency for the unions and source of handy money for the consultants - it is a service to the public - we pay for it - hope everybody bears that in mind amid all the hysteria and hoopla at the polls in a few weeks time.

Wishbone Ash

EDO wrote:

This should be laid at the door of management - the incompetent displayed by those who call themselves "managers" in the HSE is breathtaking -I despair

Yes, when the Health Boards were established in 1971, there were eight Grade VIII Administrators nationwide. Now there are over 500 and we have a poorer service in comparison.

nurse_baz wrote:

we have to re-register every year with the board

You register once only. After that, you pay a retention fee to remain on the register.

CiDeRmAn

As a nurse in the business for the last 17 years and working with people with a learning disability I have to take issue with a couple of things I have been treated to over the airwaves in the last number of days.
Firstly, the reasons why SIPTU nurses are not making similar pay and working hours demands, this is because the parent union SIPTU has accepted benchmarking as the way forward for the majority of their members, unfortunately the nursing division represents such a small part of its overall membership that they couldn't not join up for the sake of a small minority, given that the whole benchmarking system had to have SIPTUs backing, its not because those nurses feel no grievance at all, they feel the same way the rest of us do, just now lack the representation to do anything about it.
Secondly the fact that many other public sector workers seem to have had their wage demands met outside the benchmarking system, the Gardai, the teachers, even the pay increase amongst the non qualified staff in the Learning Disability services were all granted outside of benchmarking.
Also the last of those was a massive pay increase, the one that resulted in care staff being paid a lot of money for essentially menial tasks, imo, and leading to dismay from the qualified and experienced nursing staff. This was the fault of Ms Harney, she knew this was coming ages ago.
We nurses were under no obligation to adhere to benchmarking, we always had the right to pursue other avenues to seek our due.
Are we nurses to be denied the right to strike?
If so how are you going to compensate us?
In the private sector I would be free to make my own wage demands, in the public sector we take what we are given and hope that the latest round of benchmarking awards matched inflation, so we are earning as much this year as the last.
As for Irish nurses being paid more than nurses elsewhere in Europe, well if the cost of living wasn't so high that wouldn't be an issue would it?
As for the dangers of militant unions, people have very very short memories, its testament to the fact that most folk are too young to remember what it was like to have only your union to look out for your interests, when management could treat the workforce as a bunch of numbers on a sheet of paper and not as people with homes and families, the union only ever look out for the workers interests.
This seems to be forgotten in the good times of the last 15 years or so, good times that folk with power and money would have you believe was all down to them, but in fact had a good deal to do with the unions co-operating with the government to provide a stable work base, agreeing to negotiate issues rather than strike.
Now we have a government that promises one thing and forgets, a government who reckons the nurses should shut up and get back in line, screw that.
I don't want to strike, I dread the thought.
I have sick family too, I have new born nieces and nephews, so I have the same concerns about the standard of patient care they will get in the next few weeks.
But let me make one thing clear, no emergency surgery will be cancelled, no emergency or urgently needed aid won't be given, elective surgeries will be delayed yes, but no more panic mongering talk of dying babies.
We already have folk in hospitals dying everyday, that should become the nurses fault because they are on strike.
And one last thing, the last time we went on strike, we still came to work and put in a full day, costing the health board nothing whatsoever.
There were more of us on the ward than on a normal day, all leave cancelled, people worked nights, Saturdays and Sundays for nothing, simply because of the strike, I don't think in a dispute many of you would do the same.
No one in the service could turn our backs on our duty, something the more mercenary of you in the private sector have little or no knowledge of that concept it seems, but are all the more willing to take advantage of the good will of those that do.

Glenbhoy

Job satisfaction and ‘‘kinship responsibilities’’ ie, issues connected to their families - are cited as the two most significant factors in nurses deciding to leave their place of work.

So it's not salary or the 4 extra hours a week then, strange the union isn't addressing these issues?

More than one-fifth of those who expressed intent to leave held a degree, compared with only 8 per cent of those who intended to stay, revealing a much greater drain among nurses who are young, college-educated and have greater promotional possibilities.

So almost 80% of those who expressed intent to leave don't nold degrees, what exactly is this trying to say?

Almost 60 per cent of those who expressed an intention to leave their positions were single, reflecting that a high number of single female nurses leave the country to travel and work.

Amazing, young single well qualified girls want to travel!!!! You, know, a look at every other sector in the country might just give you similar results.

The study was conducted through a specially designed questionnaire that was randomly distributed to 352 registered nurses at ten hospitals across the country.

How statistically relevant is this study anyway?

On to the main argument:
What is the average nursing salary?
Who gets paid more than nurses despite having less responsibility?
How prevalent is this situation?
As I understand it, nurses want a pay increase of circa 10% and a reduction in working hours of approximately the same, how many more staff would be needed to replace these lost hours?
What are nurses prepared to give in return for this?
Is it the timing so close to the election in order to try and hold Mr. Ahern to ransome?
Were the nurses not represented in the partnership agreements with most other public sector workers? And if so, did they not agree with the deal that they signed up to?

CiDeRmAn

The disparity in pay is very common in the learning disability field where I work.
Average nurse salary? I can't say without the figures, but I pull down about 42k, and I'm at this since '90 and am responsible for the lives of the clients in my care.
I can see the 35hr week turning into compulsory overtime, don't know how they are going to fit the new rosters in without some serious overhauling of the current system, especially in my case where we work day on day off, 12 hr shifts, accruing 1hr a week owed to us, we can take that back at a time convenient to the office.
As for what the nurses give back, Doctors in my service are slowly but surely withdrawing from frontline care of the clients, aside from emergencies, these tasks are taken on by the nurses. We also have become staff managers as more and more non nursing, non qualified staff work with us in our units, in the private sector these changes of job description would come at a cost in increased wages or improved benefits for the employee, not so for nurses?
No, we were free to opt out of benchmarking, as were all other unions. We signed up to the last partnership agreements because it was in our collective interests, not so this time.
I think the timing at this point could be called tactics.
The government were free to fully engage with the nursing unions on this for some time, they drove the timetable on thisand they know it.
I fully believe the minister already knows what she will eventually offer and see accepted by the unions to make this whole thing go away, she simply cannot be seen to be "too soft" on union demands. So blame her, if she could enter into realistic talks in an effort to come to an understanding no action would need to be taken.
But no, we all have to to go through this pantomime, bull****.
As strikes go, the nurses take more care than most to ensure the people in their care don't suffer.
Doctors are still on duty, they are not so crippled that they cannot pick up a phone to call for test results, perhaps they wouldn't mind taking up the slack?

Poor Bertie, being held to ransom, can't imagine FF/PDs as poor anything, a more shrewder bunch you'll never find, just see the states media being manipulated, cover stories that a fortnight ago would have had blame laid at Harneys' door now point the finger at nurses, as if we all just walked away.

Dr Galen

Wishbone Ash wrote:

.

You register once only. After that, you pay a retention fee to remain on the register.

sorry i had a bit in there about the Uk and i thought i had deleted it all
well spotted Ash

ballooba

is_that_so wrote:

What's your answer to it so if you dismissing "setting standards"?

It sounds simple but it is the solution to most organisational problems. Lack of it is also the cause for most organisational problems.

Listening to people.

A Random Walk

The nurses had lost the PR battle before they even started, whatever their real demands were their representatives on the media have come across as greedy jealous moaners. Hard to believe that a group which enjoys such instinctive public support can manage to lose it, but they have. They are repeating the same mistakes as the last time they tried a semi strike. I just watched Liam Doran being smacked around the place on Prime Time to add to the failure.

There are people up and down the country (like me) with relatives and friends in hospital or due to go into hospital, and we are all terrified as to what will happen to them. "We are only refusing to answer phones or use computers" - give me a break.

The longer nurses drag this present dispute out the longer they are going to have to spend trying to regain public support.

FlutterinBantam

Spot on there son.... Doran had led the nurses into a corner and they think the gullible public will support them....

news for you "Nurse Baz", stop wasting your time trying to defend the indefensible and face reality.

Nurses do a terrific job,but so do thousands of other people,equally qualified and they have to accept the agreed dispute resolutions.

if you feel so badly get on all out strike, close the lot down if you can and see then how far you will get.

There is an element of greed and opportunitism in this dispute and Doran hopefully will shut up for a while as he licks his wounds after a totally unwarranted dispute.

ballooba

Given the propoganda war that has been fought over the last number of months/years you wouldn't know what to believe. The HSE's figures for those waiting on trolleys are a load of tripe for one. The INO's are definitely a more accurate reflection.

CiDeRmAn

"Terrified"?, its that type of hyperbole that leads to this mess, perhaps you should have been "terrified" at the prospect of our elderly going into private nursing homes where their rights are neglected, perhaps you should have been "terrified" at the lack of beds leading to the waiting lists and A+E pandemonium, perhaps you should be terrified a lack of proper facilities for cancer screening and treatment?
There is a lot about our health service to be "terrified" of, maybe a better word is "embarrassed".
Anyway, someone pointed out the way in which nurses are holding the government to ransom by having industrial action this close to a general election, will I say isn't it convenient that the government now have a scapegoat for any shortfalls in upcoming health care provisions and also a handy distraction from all the other problems that have been dogging this current regime, surely a very useful tool indeed.
Anything that makes Mary Harney appear in a sympathetic light has to be playing right into her hands, a health minister who like Lazarus has risen from the dead, before doing no right and standing on the little man, now a champion of patients rights against evil greedy nurses.

A Random Walk

CiDeRmAn wrote:

"Terrified"?, its that type of hyperbole that leads to this mess,

Let me get this straight. One of my relatives is due to go into hospital for a major transplant operation which will require several weeks of intensive care, while key staff in said hospital are threatening to withdraw service or provide half baked service, and I should feel "embarrassed"? I would guess that there are several hundred thousand people up and down the country who have friends or relatives in or due to go into hospital, all equally worried about whether or not they will suffer due to the current nursing union tactics.

John_C

CiDeRmAn wrote:

Also the last of those was a massive pay increase, the one that resulted in care staff being paid a lot of money for essentially menial tasks, imo, and leading to dismay from the qualified and experienced nursing staff.

I find this very offputting. You were dismayed that some of your colleagues got a pay rise? How petty is that, when any of the lads I work with get a raise, I'm delighted for them?

Also, it's quite common for someone with a trade to earn more than some engineers on a site. You don't automatically earn more than someone who reports to you.

K-9

Nurz_baz

You do raise some valid points from the survey, But!

IMO, generally that woudn't be out of sinc with private sector levels generally.

Nurz_baz wrote:

Job satisfaction and ‘‘kinship responsibilities.

These are issues in every job/sector.

Nurz_baz wrote:

About 84,000 nurses are practising within the various divisions of nursing, with the majority of them registered within the general (50,637), midwifery (13,179) and psychiatric (9,556) divisions, according to 2005 data from the nursing board.

I've heard the health service employs 110,000. 40,000 has been quoted as the nurses involved in the dispute so there is a discrepancy there somewhere.

I'm not defending the HSE. All the Health Boards amalgamated and not one job loss :mad:

Roughly, how many nurses are affiliated to SIPTU and how many to the INO/PNO?

John_C wrote:

Also, it's quite common for someone with a trade to earn more than some engineers on a site. You don't automatically earn more than someone who reports to you.

Very true. The old days of certain jobs being more important/worthy have long gone.

CiDeRmAn wrote:

will I say isn't it convenient that the government now have a scapegoat for any shortfalls in upcoming health care provisions and also a handy distraction from all the other problems that have been dogging this current regime, surely a very useful tool indeed.

Maybe, but the Govt. will get as much blame if the Health system gets into more chaos.
Nurses have been asked to go back to benchmarking. Served other public servants well (too well in some eyes!)

CiDeRmAn wrote:

Poor Bertie, being held to ransom, can't imagine FF/PDs as poor anything, a more shrewder bunch you'll never find, just see the states media being manipulated, cover stories that a fortnight ago would have had blame laid at Harneys' door now point the finger at nurses, as if we all just walked away.

Because people are sick (sic!) of all sides, Govt./HSE/Nurses/Consultants in this debate. Not just nurse's.

Just from a purely business point of view, it would be very difficult to grant a 10% pay rise plus a 10%reduction in working hours for any level/profession when they represent 36% of the total workforce. Nurses do have some very valid points but it's very hard to defend that sort of expenditure (I've heard €1 Billion talked about, which when you take in the extra pay, reduced working hours, extra staff etc. probably isn't far off the mark)

The other thing is, if nurses get there hours reduced by 10% (4 hours) and they get a 10% pay rise, the effect in their wages will be zero. They will work less hours so the effect will negate it. Or are they in fact looking for a 20% rise for doing less work?

Nevyn

1 billion so what was wasted on pars payment system and evoting...

FlutterinBantam

It is not relevant what was wasted on ppars and evoting..its OUR money.


Is it a good idea to throw the whole industrial mechanism of the state into chaos because of one group led by a person who wants to make a "name" for himself.

Let the taxpayers of this country tell the Govt. NOT to let another group of public sector employees bleed the place dry and jeopardise all the progress made to satisfy their ego.

hairymary

Why is this thread called Nurses Strike?


NURSES ARE NOT ON STRIKE

Nurses are on a work-to-rule i.e doing their jobs - looking after patients in terrible conditions for very poor pay.

Nurses are not paid to do adminstrative/clerical work and other ancillary work like answering phones which takes up a huge amount of their time and has nothing to with patient care.

FlutterinBantam

Its called "Nurses Strike?"

Little thing like "?" makes all the difference.

Hold on till I get my kerchief and start crying for the nurses with their:

Secure Jobs

Good pensions

Career path options.

There is a ground swell of public opinion growing about the public sector who seem to think that all they have to do is agitate from a sound base and eventually ride the taxpayer into the ground.

The worm is turning.

El Stuntman

ESB unions last week banging drums

Nurses unions this week threatening jihad on the HSE

any odds on the next group of public sector employees to try their luck with the election looming?
I'm going for the teachers....

hairymary

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Its called "Nurses Strike?"

Little thing like "?" makes all the difference.

Hold on till I get my kerchief and start crying for the nurses with their:

Secure Jobs

Good pensions

Career path options.

There is a ground swell of public opinion growing about the public sector who seem to think that all they have to do is agitate from a sound base and eventually ride the taxpayer into the ground.

The worm is turning.

Does it now?

I don't agree - it's intention is to give the clear impression that nurses are on strike.

Why shouldn't people have secure jobs and good pensions - a very modest expectation.

Nurses are taxpayers.

The only groundswell among the public I see is one in support of nurses, (and the only worms - the usual crackpots that seem to dominate boards like this one.)

I take it that you have an insecure job, poor pension and poor career prospects.Maybe you should try to improve your pay and conditions.

El Stuntman

hairymary wrote:

The only groundswell among the public I see is one in support of nurses, (and the only worms - the usual crackpots that seem to dominate boards like this one.)

any polls etc to back this up Mary? I would have thought the opposite myself

hairymary

El Stuntman wrote:

any polls etc to back this up Mary? I would have thought the opposite myself

I don't have any poll to back-up my view - didn't realize you had to conduct a poll before you posted your opinion on this site.

I take it then that you work in the private sector and would like to see public sector workers lose their jobs, their pensions etc in the same way as people do increasingly in the private sector.Just how will this improve the lives of ordinary people.

Maybe private and public workers should unite to improve their pay and conditions.

El Stuntman

hairymary wrote:

I don't have any poll to back-up my view - didn't realize you had to conduct a poll before you posted your opinion on this site.

I take it then that you work in the private sector and would like to see public sector workers lose their jobs, their pensions etc in the same way as people do increasingly in the private sector.Just how will this improve the lives of ordinary people.

Maybe private and public workers should unite to improve their pay and conditions.

posting an private opinion hardly constitutes a 'groundswell of popular support'. I was just trying to ascertain if you had some figures to back this up. You don't so I'll discount it
(this doesn't invalidate your opinion!)

I don't want to see public sector workers lose their jobs (unless they are incompetent or surplus to requirements). I want to see public services delivered in an efficient manner that constitutes value for money to the taxpayer. I don't think this opportunistic strike/work to rule will in any way achieve that aim, quite the opposite.

I don't get your point about public and private sector workers uniting - what do you want, a socialist revolution? Maybe we could all be like Cuba, great health services but no money or human rights?

hairymary

El Stuntman wrote:

posting an private opinion hardly constitutes a 'groundswell of popular support'. I was just trying to ascertain if you had some figures to back this up. You don't so I'll discount it
(this doesn't invalidate your opinion!)

I don't want to see public sector workers lose their jobs (unless they are incompetent or surplus to requirements). I want to see public services delivered in an efficient manner that constitutes value for money to the taxpayer. I don't think this opportunistic strike/work to rule will in any way achieve that aim, quite the opposite.

I don't get your point about public and private sector workers uniting - what do you want, a socialist revolution? Maybe we could all be like Cuba, great health services but no money or human rights?

No unfortunately Ireland will never be like Cuba - where they have decent public services education and health for everyone.Where they don't prostitute themselves to multinationals and give up control of their own natural resources.People in Cuba have money and human rights, despite being blockaded by the US - far more so than people in Ireland.Some people might regard health and education has human rights.

You think people should lose their jobs because they are "surplus to requirement".Have you ever worked in a factory where everyone was made redundant because someone else decided just that.

El Stuntman

hairymary wrote:

No unfortunately Ireland will never be like Cuba - where they have decent public services education and health for everyone.Where they don't prostitute themselves to multinationals and give up control of their own natural resources.People in Cuba have money and human rights, despite being blockaded by the US - far more so than people in Ireland.Some people might regard health and education has human rights.

Mary - are you serious?

you would like Ireland to be like Cuba?

read this, it might change your mind a little (and induce some reality). Search the amnesty site for more of the same, there's lots.

here's another good one

I doubt you would get many takers for this project of yours. You're at best misguided and at worst delusional if you think Cuba is a better place to live than Ireland

hairymary wrote:

You think people should lose their jobs because they are "surplus to requirement".Have you ever worked in a factory where everyone was made redundant because someone else decided just that.

actually I will probably get made redundant later this year together with the rest of the people in my office. The writing is on the wall yet I don't complain about it, it's the way the (free) world works - unless you have a government job for life.

FlutterinBantam

El Stuntman wrote:

Mary - are you serious?

you would like Ireland to be like Cuba?

read this, it might change your mind a little (and induce some reality). Search the amnesty site for more of the same, there's lots.

here's another good one

I doubt you would get many takers for this project of yours. You're at best misguided and at worst delusional if you think Cuba is a better place to live than Ireland



actually I will probably get made redundant later this year together with the rest of the people in my office. The writing is on the wall yet I don't complain about it, it's the way the (free) world works - unless you have a government job for life.

Well said ES

Just shows you how out of touch the public sector is with commercial reality.

lets hope Ahearn has the balls to tell them to go and f***k themselves.