Nurses Strike?

gandalf

I am actually laughing here reading some of the responses in the thread. Having had the unfortunate experience of seeing hospitals at close quarters over the last few years due to parents illnesses I cannot praise the nurses working in the Health Service enough. From the time I spent in the hospitals it is clear they do not have the resources to do their jobs, they are overworked.

What the more militant posters here should be really getting worked up about is the numbers of admin staff in the HSE. In the private sector if a number of organisations come together then there are consolidation of numbers (ie people who are not needed are made redundant), what happened when the HSE was formed, this government guaranteed these people their jobs http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0104/health.html

Thats the real joke, the inability of this government and Mary Harney in particular to correctly allocate resources to where they are needed to the front line. I fully support the nurses, they should be paid more, their jobs are tougher and to compare them to ESB Workers or other ordinary Civil Servants is nearly an insult.

Wishbone Ash

El Stuntman wrote:

I don't complain about it, it's the way the (free) world works - unless you have a government job for life.

Recruitment into the Public/Civil service is open and transparent. There is/was nothing to stop you from applying for a position or career there.

hairymary

El Stuntman wrote:

Mary - are you serious?

you would like Ireland to be like Cuba?

read this, it might change your mind a little (and induce some reality). Search the amnesty site for more of the same, there's lots.

here's another good one

I doubt you would get many takers for this project of yours. You're at best misguided and at worst delusional if you think Cuba is a better place to live than Ireland



actually I will probably get made redundant later this year together with the rest of the people in my office. The writing is on the wall yet I don't complain about it, it's the way the (free) world works - unless you have a government job for life.

I condemn any human right violations in Cuba.There are human rights abuses in all countries - I notice you have not given any links to human right abuses in Ireland on Amnesty's website for the sake of balance at least.Was there a reason for this oversight.Maybe you will next time.

I'm sorry to hear you may lose your job this year - maybe this accounts for your hostility towards workers in the public sector.By 'free world' I presume you mean capitalism, but because you are 'competent and not surplus to requirement' I'm sure that won't happen.

Have you ever been to Cuba?By your own admission you have never experienced redundancy so I don't think you are in a position to call me misguided or delusional.

Dr Galen

El Stuntman wrote:

actually I will probably get made redundant later this year together with the rest of the people in my office. The writing is on the wall yet I don't complain about it, it's the way the (free) world works - unless you have a government job for life.

you seem to be a bit confused here mate. Nurses certainly don't have a job for life. Not every public servant is on a permanent contract, far from it. Most nurses are on temporary contracts. I've pointed this out before that you only have to look at the health service in the UK to see who the first ones are that get laid off in hospitals......

oscarBravo

hairymary wrote:

Have you ever worked in a factory where everyone was made redundant because someone else decided just that.

I have. From what I could tell, pretty much all of the two-hundred-odd employees had jobs within a few weeks or, at worst, months.

El Stuntman wrote:

You're at best misguided and at worst delusional if you think Cuba is a better place to live than Ireland

Let's not get personal, shall we?

CiDeRmAn

If the public service was such a Rosy place to work everyone one would be there.
As said most contracts in the health services are temporary ones, subject to interview if you want permanency and even then you are subject to the rules and regulations of you governing board, breaches of whose regs can get you struck off and out of work. Also you have your own place of employment who may also choose to take you to task and inititiate an enquiry into a given incident and your response, so we nurses are certainly not give carte blanche once we are given a permanent position to do as we please without worry of being let go.
Also, if you are going to decide that there are no legitamate reasons why a nurse can't have the right to strike, as all workers have, then you must provide adequate payment or conditions so this does not arise, otherwise the employer will always know, regardless of our work conditions and pay we will still come into work and do a full day, we have to have some recourse to protest, some way of saying, we are unhappy and be heard.

Wishbone Ash

CiDeRmAn wrote:

if you are going to decide that there are no legitamate reasons why a nurse can't have the right to strike, as all workers have

Not all workers have the right to strike. Gardaí and armed forces are prohibited from going on strike. That is why the Gardaí had the "blue flu".

PS - I agree with the sentiments of your posts.

Glenbhoy

Thaedydal wrote:

1 billion so what was wasted on pars payment system and evoting...

1 billion per annum for life is substantially more than was wasted on ppars and e-voting. I think the max wasted there is approx 180M, but could be wrong, as from what I know of ppars it'd be extremely difficult to determine the money wasted, though as the newspapers said somewhere around 200M, we can be sure it was probably half that at most.
As for the nurses, it's difficult, but, given that the average salary as reported on Primetime was 56k, I wouldn't be rushing to meet their demands - they've got to give a fair bit in return, I don't know much about their current responsibility levels, but would that be an area wherein they could give something back? Could we then reduce doctor numbers? I mean something, somewhere has to give, it's just not possible to demand a 10% pay rise if it has to be funded by new money - maybe increased taxes, or non-reduction of other taxes could fund it. VRT for example brings in approx 1bn a year, stamp duty on residential property raises approx 1bn, McDowell claimed the govt. don't need it, they will now.....

El Stuntman

FlutterinBantam wrote:

lets hope Ahearn has the balls to tell them to go and f***k themselves.

lol, in an election year? the Great Vacillator and Friend to All taking a firm stance on an issue of national importance?

no chance imo, there will be a deal....

(more chance of me moving to Cuba with Mary)

K-9

El Stuntman wrote:

lol, in an election year? the Great Vacillator and Friend to All taking a firm stance on an issue of national importance?

no chance imo, there will be a deal....

(more chance of me moving to Cuba with Mary)

Well he has told them to go to benchmarking. He is also a great believer in the Labour Court, which the Nurses unions have rejected. The problem with the Health Service is if the Govt./HSE (and I'm not defending them, all the Health Boards and nobody lost their job when they where amalgamated) but if they say no, or maybe, all hell breaks loose. Consultants included.

Hairymary wrote:

Why shouldn't people have secure jobs and good pensions - a very modest expectation.

The only groundswell among the public I see is one in support of nurses,

No unfortunately Ireland will never be like Cuba - where they have decent public services education and health for everyone.Where they don't prostitute themselves to multinationals and give up control of their own natural resources.People in Cuba have money and human rights, despite being blockaded by the US - far more so than people in Ireland.Some people might regard health and education has human rights.

Not in the private sector. Depends on the market. Fruit of the loom, Abbotts, Motorola etc. etc. etc. where considered good jobs ten years ago. Modest yes, but applicable to everybody, No.

If a proper "strike" occurs with the inevitable consequences, public sympathy will drop. It's the same with most strikes, public sympathy drops the longer they go on.

On Cuba, people there having human rights and money is very debatable, it's another thread and shouldn't have been introduced here. Why have so many people left/leaving/wanting to leave Cuba. Ireland in the 80's was nearly as bad:rolleyes:

hairymary

Seanies32 wrote:

Well he has told them to go to benchmarking. He is also a great believer in the Labour Court, which the Nurses unions have rejected. The problem with the Health Service is if the Govt./HSE (and I'm not defending them, all the Health Boards and nobody lost their job when they where amalgamated) but if they say no, or maybe, all hell breaks loose. Consultants included.



Not in the private sector. Depends on the market. Fruit of the loom, Abbotts, Motorola etc. etc. etc. where considered good jobs ten years ago. Modest yes, but applicable to everybody, No.

If a proper "strike" occurs with the inevitable consequences, public sympathy will drop. It's the same with most strikes, public sympathy drops the longer they go on.

On Cuba, people there having human rights and money is very debatable, it's another thread and shouldn't have been introduced here. Why have so many people left/leaving/wanting to leave Cuba. Ireland in the 80's was nearly as bad:rolleyes:

I didn't say it applied to everyone - isn't that precisely the point I'm making.

IF the nurses strike I suspect we'll see an immediate resolution to this dispute.They have the right to strike i.e withdraw their labour despite what some might think on this site.

Have so many people left/leaving/wanting to leave Cuba?
Nobody is forced to leave Cuba unlike Ireland of 1980's and the numbers don't compare to the numbers that left Ireland.
I do remember one senior politician at the time saying we had too many people living on the island - a member of the Fianna Fail mafia that runs this country as far as I recall.

You think Cubans don't have money or Human rights?
What an arrogant pain in the bum country we've become.

Who was it that introduced the Cuba dimension to this 'debate'? Let me think now.

El Stuntman

hairymary wrote:

You think Cubans don't have money or Human rights?
What an arrogant pain in the bum country we've become.

sorry mods for being off topic but I have to challenge this...

Mary, the average salary in Cuba equals $15 per month.

I think you'll find that wages (even for the poor nurses) are somewhat higher here

hairymary

El Stuntman wrote:

Maybe we could all be like Cuba, great health services but no money or human rights?

What are you challenging - you said Cuba has no money maybe you meant less money.

The average salary is $15 but are goods and services correspondingly lower or free in Cuba.Maybe you could compare like with like and give us the adjusted cost of living in Cuba and Ireland (which has the highest cost of living in the EU)

Are wages higher in real terms in Ireland

El Stuntman

hairymary wrote:

What are you challenging - you said Cuba has no money maybe you meant less money.

The average salary is $15 but are goods and services correspondingly lower or free in Cuba.Maybe you could compare like with like and give us the adjusted cost of living in Cuba and Ireland (which has the highest cost of living in the EU)

Are wages higher in real terms in Ireland

just give up Mary, you're in danger of fracturing my sense of humour (those are 2002 numbers, the gap has widened considerably since then. Probably closer to 20* times better off now)

next thing you'll be arguing that North Korea is a nice place to visit for the weekend and oooooh so cheap. And those secret policeman are ever so friendly

cop on

Hotblack Desiato

At least in Ireland we can speak our minds without becoming a political prisoner, and emigrate to another country freely if we choose.

hairymary

El Stuntman wrote:

just give up Mary, you're in danger of fracturing my sense of humour (those are 2002 numbers, the gap has widened considerably since then. Probably closer to 20* times better off now)

next thing you'll be arguing that North Korea is a nice place to visit for the weekend and oooooh so cheap. And those secret policeman are ever so friendly

cop on

Oh you want me to give up and cop on.
Is this how you normally discuss topics on this site?

Maybe North Korea is a nice place to visit - have you ever been there?
Are their secret police as friendly as our secret police?

Why did you want to prove that Ireland's GDP per capita is higher than Cuba's? (Of course those figures don't account for the illegal US imposed blockade)

What do think Ireland's GDP would be if we were blockaded.
How would Ireland's GDP be effected if all foreign owned multinationals companies left?

K-9

hairymary wrote:

I didn't say it applied to everyone - isn't that precisely the point I'm making.

Pay agreements didn't apply to nurses, Labour Court recommendations either and oh yeah, Benchmarking didn't meet with their approval either. How many labour relation devices/threats are needed before hey get what they want. Not getting at Nurses personally, just the public service overall.

hairymary wrote:

IF the nurses strike I suspect we'll see an immediate resolution to this dispute.They have the right to strike i.e withdraw their labour despite what some might think on this site.

They have the right to strike which will be a major PR disaster. Already, The Patients organisation (often on Nurses side) has said to reconsider cancer patients. That is only the start of the Public reaction. The perception will be, rightly or wrongly, that patients are suffering because of the nurses actions.

hairymary wrote:

Nobody is forced to leave Cuba unlike Ireland of 1980's and the numbers don't compare to the numbers that left Ireland.

Exactly, they definitely are not forced to leave Cubs, more forced to stay.Nobody was forced to leave Ireland either in the 80's. Unfortunately for a lot of people it was the economic reality. Then again what about the numbers who have come back to Ireland and non-nationals who have come to, by freedom of choice too. We must be doing something right.

Glenbhoy

Perhaps Mary would like to live in Cuba Stuntman, presumably, if (s)he's so enamoured with the country, (s)he would like to move ther and give us blog on the transition - possibly (s)he would not be qualified enough to work ther, but sure, even a month there might be enough to allow reality a chance to surface??

K-9

Glenbhoy wrote:

Perhaps Mary would like to live in Cuba Stuntman, presumably, if (s)he's so enamoured with the country, (s)he would like to move ther and give us blog on the transition - possibly (s)he would not be qualified enough to work ther, but sure, even a month there might be enough to allow reality a chance to surface??

hairymary wrote:

Have you ever been to Cuba?

But by her comment directed at El Stuntman she seems to have more experience of Cuba so maybe she has already been there. The general opinion everywhere is that Cuba is not the most fantastic country to live in for quality of life. Maybe Hairy mary has some facts/experiences that can enlighten us as to what is wrong with our country/health system and why nurses are on strike here and why Cuba is such an example of a country for Ireland to follow.

El Stuntman

hairymary wrote:

Oh you want me to give up and cop on.
Is this how you normally discuss topics on this site?

I present facts, you present fantasies.
I just get a bit annoyed when you choose to ignore them and continue to peddle rubbish.

hairymary wrote:

Maybe North Korea is a nice place to visit - have you ever been there?
Are their secret police as friendly as our secret police?

hairymary wrote:

???? No I've never been. I'm looking forward to your trip report. Hope the food (they eat grass becuase there's such shortages) is tasty.

hairymary wrote:

Why did you want to prove that Ireland's GDP per capita is higher than Cuba's? (Of course those figures don't account for the illegal US imposed blockade)

errrrr....because you asked me to?

see below quote from yourself

now give up and get back to work. There's sick people who need help....

hairymary wrote:

The average salary is $15 but are goods and services correspondingly lower or free in Cuba.Maybe you could compare like with like and give us the adjusted cost of living in Cuba and Ireland (which has the highest cost of living in the EU)

hairymary

El Stuntman wrote:

I present facts, you present fantasies.
I just get a bit annoyed when you choose to ignore them and continue to peddle rubbish.

hairymary wrote:

Maybe North Korea is a nice place to visit - have you ever been there?
Are their secret police as friendly as our secret police?

hairymary wrote:

???? No I've never been. I'm looking forward to your trip report. Hope the food (they eat grass becuase there's such shortages) is tasty.

hairymary wrote:

Why did you want to prove that Ireland's GDP per capita is higher than Cuba's? (Of course those figures don't account for the illegal US imposed blockade)

errrrr....because you asked me to?

see below quote from yourself

now give up and get back to work. There's sick people who need help....

hairymary wrote:

The average salary is $15 but are goods and services correspondingly lower or free in Cuba.Maybe you could compare like with like and give us the adjusted cost of living in Cuba and Ireland (which has the highest cost of living in the EU)

Originally Posted by El Stuntman
Maybe we could all be like Cuba, great health services but no money or human rights?

This statement of yours is not a fact it is false.

Maybe you should review this 'discussion' and actually try to read what I did say - and please don't distort and misrepresent my views.

Ten of thousands of Irish people were forced economic migrants during the 1980s.(Fact)

Did I say that Cuba had higher GDP than Ireland?Of course those figures don't mean anything in the context I've outlined to you.Maybe you should read again what I did say and stop accusing me of peddling rubbish.

I don't pretend to know about countries I've never been to or lived in like some.

I don't selectively quote from reports in the biased way that you did.
(Amnesty Report)

What fantasies did I present with quotes please.

TheVan

Ok, disregarding all of the Cuba comments (which are irrelevant....there are no similarities between Cuba and Ireland...analogies are useless) I want to know...

Why are the nurses striking?

They want a 10% pay rise - are they grossly underpaid?

They want a 35 hour working week - this would result in the loss of 7.7 million nurse hours....how do they propose solving this? And why should they only have to work 35 hours?

They have rejected Labour Court rulings....why??


This thread has been full of emotional arguments and rhetoric......but I can't see the nurses side of this argument? Why the hell do they demand/deserve this stuff (any more than anyone else).

Why???

K-9

CiDeRmAn wrote:

If the public service was such a Rosy place to work everyone one would be there.

No, if we all worked in the public service the country wound be bust, so therfore there is limited numbers.

Ciderman wrote:

As said most contracts in the health services are temporary ones, subject to interview if you want permanency and even then you are subject to the rules and regulations of you governing board, breaches of whose regs can get you struck off and out of work. Also you have your own place of employment who may also choose to take you to task and inititiate an enquiry into a given incident and your response, so we nurses are certainly not give carte blanche once we are given a permanent position to do as we please without worry of being let go.

I've read figures that the Health Services employ 110/120,000 of which approx. 70/80,000 are permanent. Government figures alright, so to be treated with caution, but still.

Nurse numbers are roughly 40,000 and have increased by a third in the last 10 years. Are we to pay for more nurses to cover the less hours worked and also pay more for the wage increases.

With the Public sector pay bill being so high as it is, I don't think it's a political or economical reality.

Dr Galen

TheVan wrote:

Ok, disregarding all of the Cuba comments (which are irrelevant....there are no similarities between Cuba and Ireland...analogies are useless) I want to know...

Why are the nurses striking?

They want a 10% pay rise - are they grossly underpaid?

They want a 35 hour working week - this would result in the loss of 7.7 million nurse hours....how do they propose solving this? And why should they only have to work 35 hours?

They have rejected Labour Court rulings....why??


This thread has been full of emotional arguments and rhetoric......but I can't see the nurses side of this argument? Why the hell do they demand/deserve this stuff (any more than anyone else).

Why???

i agree..........no more Cuba nonsense.....;)

can i point you to here and here for the nurses point of view

and in the interests of balance.......

here for the HSE/Dept of Health viewpoint

read the facts, not the opinions on here and make up your own mind

hairymary

The nurses are not striking?

Where did you get that notion from I wonder.

The nurses are working-to-rule i.e doing their own job, not someone else's

Yes nurses are overworked and underpaid.

Yes everything modern country needs public services and yes we will have to pay for them - like all progressive countries in the world.

The number of nurses has increased from a low base to try and catch up with the increasing numbers of people attending A+E/hospitals due to increasing population, elderly, social breakdown etc.

They have 2 main demands

Nurses are looking for a 10% increase in pay to achieve some kind of parity with other professionals in the health service.

They also want a 35hr week (39hr at present) - the same as all other groups in the health service including HSE management who refuse to talk to them.

A friend of mine is a CNM 2 in a major north city A+E who works in an under resourced, under staffed unit that I can only describe as a war zone.
They work 13 hrs shifts in a very hostile enviroment trying to do the impossible and quite frankly if they received a 100% increase it wouldn't be enough.There has been a huge increase in amount of patients attending A+E in recent years and they all have to be treated and no judgements or assumptions made (even when they're drunk)about them - everyone gets looked after.It is the doctors who determine how quickly patients are treated.

Btw CNM 2s work at least an extra hour (unpaid) on every shift.

Because nurses are not tied up on clerical,administrative and other ancillary work like answering telephones the time they spend with patients has increased.Nurses are paid to look after patients not their relatives.

Nurses need to be valued like everyone else.There are high numbers of nurses leaving the profession because of conditions and the lack of respect/recognition for what they do.

Voipjunkie

nurse_baz wrote:

i agree..........no more Cuba nonsense.....;)

can i point you to here and here for the nurses point of view

and in the interests of balance.......

here for the HSE/Dept of Health viewpoint

read the facts, not the opinions on here and make up your own mind

I support the nurses 100%

Don't pay too much attention to the vocal right wing minority that are found on forums, tabloid newspapers and radio phone in shows
These people are inherently anti trade union
anti public service
They believe that Micheal O' Leary should run the country and make us all rich and other such nonsense.

IMO the nurses have been very patient and measured in their industrial action this is a very limited form of industrial action designed to have a minimum effect on patients.
Nurses have been stepped on for years and their reluctance to take industrial action has been taken advantage of by successive governments.
It is intolerable that they are asked to supervise care workers who are paid more than them.
The government is at fault here they set up body after body so that everything is at arms length No it is not me its the HSE no it is not us its the benchmarking body no it it the labour court etc etc

Good luck to the nurses don't let the bastards get you down

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

Don't pay too much attention to the vocal right wing minority that are found on forums, tabloid newspapers and radio phone in shows

Nice way to pigeon hole people. I would be anti-trade union in so far as unions work at the moment i.e. bleeding us, the private sector workers dry*. I also want to see serious reform of the public sector, including a major cull on the number of admin staff.

I do support the nurses however. I know how much work they do and how under appreciated they are. I'm not sure if they have gone the right way about their current action.

*I don't mean all public sector workers. I realise that public sector workers like Nurses, Gardai and others pay taxes too. We are all funding the civil service excess.

Voipjunkie

ballooba wrote:

I do support the nurses however. I know how much work they do and how under appreciated they are. I'm not sure if they have gone the right way about their current action.

Well how should they have have gone about it in your opinion
waited another 27 years
wait for the benchmarking body to bounce them back to their employer then the labour court and around in circles.

Tell us exactly what course of action would have been better.

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

Tell us exactly what course of action would have been better.

The nurses are saying that they are not respected. They could have found a means to highlight this rather than demanding better pay and conditions. By doing this they are just seen as being greedy. They should have tackled the underlying issue and then gone after the pay and conditions.

That's the problem with unions these days. They only know how to ask for money.

Raskolnikov

gandalf wrote:

I am actually laughing here reading some of the responses in the thread. Having had the unfortunate experience of seeing hospitals at close quarters over the last few years due to parents illnesses I cannot praise the nurses working in the Health Service enough.

Yep, I totally agree.

Walk into A&E and you'll see crowded waiting rooms, people on trolleys and all manner of filth and illness. It truly is almost like a warzone at times. It's the nurses who are on the firing line and having to deal with these torrents of injuries and very often; abuse.

The nurses absolutely deserve a 10% pay increase and a reduction in their working hours.