Nurses Strike?

Raskolnikov

ballooba wrote:

That's the problem with unions these days. They only know how to ask for money.

Right, so it's ok to pidgeonhole the evil nasty unions but not people :rolleyes:

Dr Galen

The nurses are saying that they are not respected. They could have found a means to highlight this rather than demanding better pay and conditions. By doing this they are just seen as being greedy. They should have tackled the underlying issue and then gone after the pay and conditions.

i see what your saying here, but.....we are already tackling the underlying issues within nursing with regard to professional respect etc, and quite successfully too. When nurses ay they aren't getting the respect, they now talk about respect from the paymasters. We wonder why, when we have the same educational standards and in a lot of cases higher than, other healthcare professionals, do we consistently get screwed over in regards to pay and working conditions/hours.

the average figures quoted by the HSE are a fallacy. I'll be a long time working before i earn 56k a year. a very very long time. Even if i worked every bank holiday, Sunday and week of nights going in a 52 week period I'd barely come out with 40k. a long way from 56k.

the reality is that most of the nurses working earn now-where near this amount. even my mother a ward sister with 26 years experience, in charge of a 38 bedded ward, doesn't get that and thats including any little bit of premium/overtime pay she might get.

That's the problem with unions these days. They only know how to ask for money.

i take it your not a union member then? I can assure you both the INO/PNA do a lot more than ask for money for the members

ballooba

If the pay is the issue then the nurses shouldn't confuse the situation by bringing in other things like respect.

I was told one day by a nurse what the payscale was. I was genuinely shocked, I didn't say anything though because I thought it might be insulting to her. It was peanuts.

In reality they have aimed high, they will settle low. They will probably get a total of 7-10% either in hours or pay.

nurse_baz wrote:

i take it your not a union member then? I can assure you both the INO/PNA do a lot more than ask for money for the members

I'm not.

The unions should publicise more the other work they do then. It gives people are predisposed to be negative towards them when they only hear them asking for money. I was however impressed with the backing the INO gave the students in their strike a year or two ago. About admin fees the students had to pay, or something like that.

K-9

nurse_baz wrote:

can i point you to here and here for the nurses point of view

and in the interests of balance.......

here for the HSE/Dept of Health viewpoint

read the facts, not the opinions on here and make up your own mind

From HSE - "Following an extensive survey of employers in the Intellectual Disability sector, the HSE has identified seven locations where 50 Staff Nurses have Social Care Workers ? on a higher salary - reporting to them."

What starting salary do social/childcare workers have?

TV3 news this evening stated that nurses started on €31/32,000, slightly more than a Guard and slightly less than a teacher. They quoted an average Nurses salary of over €52,000.

It's an interesting point to that the private sector does not have all these industrial relations mechanisms to go to for pay claims. Plenty of companies have shut down if pay claims are unviable for the future of the company.

hairymary wrote:

Yes everything modern country needs public services and yes we will have to pay for them - like all progressive countries in the world.

Well be prepared for tax increases (either by rates or stealth) to pay for more nurses to cover the 35 hour week and the extra 10% pay increase. And of course the knock on pay claims arising from that being implemented.

hairymary wrote:

Because nurses are not tied up on clerical,administrative and other ancillary work like answering telephones the time they spend with patients has increased.Nurses are paid to look after patients not their relatives.

So more administration staff as well to be hired as well or paid more for extra duties as well.

All this extra money will require extra tax and extra Govt. expenditure both on wages and Capital buildings. For an economy that has more of a Celtic purr than a roar lately this will spell disaster.

Voipjunkie wrote:

IMO the nurses have been very patient and measured in their industrial action this is a very limited form of industrial action designed to have a minimum effect on patients.
Nurses have been stepped on for years and their reluctance to take industrial action has been taken advantage of by successive governments.
It is intolerable that they are asked to supervise care workers who are paid more than them.
The government is at fault here they set up body after body so that everything is at arms length No it is not me its the HSE no it is not us its the benchmarking body no it it the labour court etc etc

Good luck to the nurses don't let the bastards get you down

It was the Govt. that set up all these industrial relations devices that you are referring to, benchmarking etc. which of course Unions have a big say in.

Why don't we go back to the god old days of the strikes/work to rules. in the 70's/80's. Great country it was then! The British car industry strikes of the 70/80's really improved the rights of workers there. They build great cars there now;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ballooba
That's the problem with unions these days. They only know how to ask for money.

Raskolnikov wrote:

Right, so it's ok to pidgeonhole the evil nasty unions but not people

Well the Unions where asking for €5,000 to relocate nurses to the new Cork Maternity Hospital, an extra €1,000 than they where being offered. This was admitted by the INO. Very patient care orientated of the INO.

Dr Galen

i totally agree with you on your final point. The INO runs a fantastic educational service and also a brilliant library, but people never hear that. As for supposrting students, no other union comes near them for that. They spend fortunes on the student nurses each year.

They also use vast sums of money on legal matters concerning nurses, whether someone was in the right or not, the INO stick by them and fund their legal costs

Dr Galen

TV3 news this evening stated that nurses started on €31/32,000, slightly more than a Guard and slightly less than a teacher. They quoted an average Nurses salary of over €52,000.

i've addressed this in AH post don't feel like typing it all out again.

can i just point out though that they have included every qualified nurse in the country in this figure, regardless of position, so the Directors of Nursing, or the Chief Nursing Officer, all on 80k + at the top of the scale are included in this, thus creating an artificially high figure

K-9

nurse_baz wrote:

i totally agree with you on your final point. The INO runs a fantastic educational service and also a brilliant library, but people never hear that. As for supposrting students, no other union comes near them for that. They spend fortunes on the student nurses each year.

They also use vast sums of money on legal matters concerning nurses, whether someone was in the right or not, the INO stick by them and fund their legal costs

I'm not condemning them completely. Im sure they provide a good service otherwise they wouldn't exist, though funding legal matters whether someone is in the right or wrong is not good either.


Quote:
TV3 news this evening stated that nurses started on €31/32,000, slightly more than a Guard and slightly less than a teacher. They quoted an average Nurses salary of over €52,000.

nurse_baz wrote:

i've addressed this in AH post don't feel like typing it all out again.

can i just point out though that they have included every qualified nurse in the country in this figure, regardless of position, so the Directors of Nursing, or the Chief Nursing Officer, all on 80k + at the top of the scale are included in this, thus creating an artificially high figure.

I did think there probably was some massaging of the figures.

However I know personally, with proof from a P60, of a nurse, in her second year nursing with no degree, getting €30.509.45.

Villain

The majority of nurses work very hard and in conditions that most people working in the private sector would run a mile from. A 10% increase is well deserved and 35 hours a week is workable according to the experts I've been listening to, I mean the consultants are turing down salary's of €205k no benchmarking for them!

But, and I don't want to drag this thread off topic, I would like to see some kind of performance related measure for say the half of the 10% i.e. if nurses ensure they are doing everything possible to stop the spread of MRSA and other Bugs in hospitals by washing their hands properly between patients and following the guidelines laid down they get the full 10% but if independent reports show failings then that 5% is held back until there is an improvment, I know that wouldn't be easy to implement but I think it might be worth looking at.

Chakar

To be honest the nurse's claims were completely unrealistic. To reduce the number of hours it has to be done over a long period of time with risk assessments carried out in relation to all the stakeholders involved. A fixed working week would mean the loss of hundreds of days of work. The government doesn't disagree with the 35 hour week in principle so they're willing to work with the stakeholders to achieve this.

I think the pay claim that the nurses have should be dealt with in the benchmarking process. All other public sector employees and the private sector are dealt with under the benchmarking and the social partnership process. It doesn't make sense to give one group a pay rise and not give others the same too.

Voipjunkie

ballooba wrote:

The nurses are saying that they are not respected. They could have found a means to highlight this rather than demanding better pay and conditions. By doing this they are just seen as being greedy. They should have tackled the underlying issue and then gone after the pay and conditions.

That's the problem with unions these days. They only know how to ask for money.

Sorry but that is BS I asked what specifically could they have done not "found a means"

And has already been highlighted you object to pigeon holing and then proceed to pigeon hole.

The nurses have a right to make a pay claim and if they are given the run around they have the right to withdraw their labour we should be thankful that we have nurses so committed to their jobs that they allowed it to go on for so long and then only take such limited action.

ballooba

Ones means I was going to suggest was whistleblowing. I see today a junior doctor has set up a blog for just this purpose. If the nurses know where the excess is then they should highlight it. Once we trim the fat the money will be there for them. http://thebitterpill.wordpress.com/

Voipjunkie wrote:

The nurses have a right to make a pay claim and if they are given the run around they have the right to withdraw their labour we should be thankful that we have nurses so committed to their jobs that they allowed it to go on for so long and then only take such limited action.

What workers in unionised environments forget is that employers maintain the right to bring in new labour if the existing labour feel they're hard done by. In certain circumstances this is contemptable, but in others I feel it is justified. Waterford Stanley being an example.

In the public sector this is not directly possible, but is achievable through privatisation. If the unions ask for more than their fair share then the taxpayer will suport privatisation. I for one am sick of being bullied by unions. Bring on Public Sector Reform!!!

K-9

Voipjunkie wrote:

The nurses have a right to make a pay claim and if they are given the run around they have the right to withdraw their labour we should be thankful that we have nurses so committed to their jobs that they allowed it to go on for so long and then only take such limited action.

They do have that right and the HSE/Govt. has the right to ignore it or tell them to use benchmarking. Work stoppages from Wednesday, (IMO the Govt. will not back down) will be the start of public opinion going against the Nurses and of course the Govt./HSE know this.

They have the right to strike but they also have to cope with the responsibility of those actions.

ballooba wrote:

What workers in unionised environments forget is that employers maintain the right to bring in new labour if the existing labour feel they're hard done by. In certain circumstances this is contemptable, but in others I feel it is justified. Waterford Stanley being an example.

In the public sector this is not directly possible, but is achievable through privatisation. If the unions ask for more than their fair share then the taxpayer will suport privatisation. I for one am sick of being bullied by unions. Bring on Public Sector Reform!!!

In the private sector the labour can be replaced as you say. Unions have to be commended on their action regarding Irish Ferries (undefendable) but I don't think Voipjunkie is ever going to see that they can be wrong and self motivated too.

The problem with the public sector is that job cuts, for both political and union reasons will never be countenanced (Health Boards a great example).Just as some private companies use job cuts for pure greed the public sector wouldn't agree to it for pure self motivated reasons.

Voipjunkie

ballooba wrote:

Ones means I was going to suggest was whistleblowing. I see today a junior doctor has set up a blog for just this purpose. If the nurses know where the excess is then they should highlight it. Once we trim the fat the money will be there for them. http://thebitterpill.wordpress.com/

What workers in unionised environments forget is that employers maintain the right to bring in new labour if the existing labour feel they're hard done by. In certain circumstances this is contemptable, but in others I feel it is justified. Waterford Stanley being an example.

In the public sector this is not directly possible, but is achievable through privatisation. If the unions ask for more than their fair share then the taxpayer will suport privatisation. I for one am sick of being bullied by unions. Bring on Public Sector Reform!!!

So instead of industrial action to further their claim they should all set up websites and whistleblow and then their employers would grant them a 35 hour week and a 10% rise as a reward.
How many whistleblowing events do you think should happen first.:rolleyes:

No unionised workers do not forget that but they also should not allow themselves to be cowed by the threat of blacklegs or privatisation.
Who decides what the workers fair share is ?


What I see is an awful lot of jealousy people look at the public sector and imagine that the grass is greener on that side of the fence that the pressures that they face in their jobs do not apply to people in the public sector of course it is complete nonsense their are freeloaders in the private and public sector but the vast majority of people in both sectors work extremely hard.
Of course the difference for nurses etc is that they are not involved in producing profit so the value of their work can not be measured as easily as private sector workers.

Voipjunkie

Seanies32 wrote:

In the private sector the labour can be replaced as you say. Unions have to be commended on their action regarding Irish Ferries (undefendable) but I don't think Voipjunkie is ever going to see that they can be wrong and self motivated too.

Of course unions can be wrong I dont believe anyone or anything is infallible.

And of course unions are self motivated that is their purpose. That is the problem most of you seem to believe that unions should be impartial they are not and never can be they are their to act in the best interest of their members not the best interest of the HSE ,the Government, the taxpayer, FF or the PDs.

K-9

Voipjunkie wrote:

What I see is an awful lot of jealousy people look at the public sector and imagine that the grass is greener on that side of the fence that the pressures that they face in their jobs do not apply to people in the public sector of course it is complete nonsense their are freeloaders in the private and public sector but the vast majority of people in both sectors work extremely hard.
Of course the difference for nurses etc is that they are not involved in producing profit so the value of their work can not be measured as easily as private sector workers.

And there is alot of jealousy from the public sector looking at the private sector. I mean if somebody puts their houses, savings etc. at risk and makes money I say fair play to them.

Job security is not as much of an issue with the public service as the private sector. I can't see how it can be argued otherwise.


There are budget constraints on the Public service and all pay claims have to considered in that context. The Govt. will not give in to the Nurses demands by way of a strike but maybe if they go back to benchmarking. The Govt. is worried about knock on pay demands and righly so.

K-9

Voipjunkie wrote:

Of course unions can be wrong I dont believe anyone or anything is infallible.

And of course unions are self motivated that is their purpose. That is the problem most of you seem to believe that unions should be impartial they are not and never can be they are their to act in the best interest of their members not the best interest of the HSE ,the Government, the taxpayer, FF or the PDs.

The HSE and the Govt. have to act in the best interest of the Health Service, taxpayer, economy etc. etc. They have to consider a much bigger picture than the Nurses Unions.

Knock on pay demands are part of Public sector pay. You could nearly guarantee that there will be some other parties in a year or two saying sure the Nurses got their demands, why don't we do it now.

The Labour Court is there to act as an independent body to mediate between the Unions and other parties. What exactly was wrong with their recommendations?

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

So instead of industrial action to further their claim they should all set up websites and whistleblow and then their employers would grant them a 35 hour week and a 10% rise as a reward.
How many whistleblowing events do you think should happen first.:rolleyes:

If the nurses feel that the source of inefficiencies lies with other workers then they should highlight that to the public. If the highlight what needs to be fixed then it can be fixed and there will be money.

Of course private sector workers see public sector workers as having a cushy number. The scope to leech off the system is there far more than in the private sector. Of course private sector workers aren't going to sit back and watch people leech off of them. Another difference between private and public sector workers is that we don't pay private sector wages.

thebitterpill

Voipjunkie wrote:

So instead of industrial action to further their claim they should all set up websites and whistleblow and then their employers would grant them a 35 hour week and a 10% rise as a reward.
How many whistleblowing events do you think should happen first.:rolleyes:

No unionised workers do not forget that but they also should not allow themselves to be cowed by the threat of blacklegs or privatisation.
Who decides what the workers fair share is ?


What I see is an awful lot of jealousy people look at the public sector and imagine that the grass is greener on that side of the fence that the pressures that they face in their jobs do not apply to people in the public sector of course it is complete nonsense their are freeloaders in the private and public sector but the vast majority of people in both sectors work extremely hard.
Of course the difference for nurses etc is that they are not involved in producing profit so the value of their work can not be measured as easily as private sector workers.

Everyone wants more money, but holding patients hostage to further your claims is not the right way to go about it. Those of us in the medical profession do not in my opinion have the luxury of striking for all but the direst circumstance. And there are other forums available for the nurses to address their concerns.

Whistleblowing can only happen when something is severe and not openly discussed. A junior doctor working 60-110+ hours a week, with 32 hour shifts without rest is dangerous for patients and the doctor. A nurse working 39 hours a week is not a critical issue affecting the health of patients or even staff. Wanting to work 35 hours is a nice thing, but working 39 is not so bad that you have to put patients and their families in trouble over it.

Whistleblowing may not be an effect avenue to address the nurses concerns on pay and working hours, but that is because these issues are not critical issues causing poor health care, rather they are 'wants.' Nothing wrong with wants, everyone should have them, I'd like more money myself, wouldn't you? But not at the expense of patients, not when there is another open forum. If nurses were to whistleblow about more critical issues (and there are a lot of these in our collapsing health service), I'm sure it would cause a stir.

Voipjunkie

Seanies32 wrote:

And there is alot of jealousy from the public sector looking at the private sector. I mean if somebody puts their houses, savings etc. at risk and makes money I say fair play to them.

Job security is not as much of an issue with the public service as the private sector. I can't see how it can be argued otherwise.


There are budget constraints on the Public service and all pay claims have to considered in that context. The Govt. will not give in to the Nurses demands by way of a strike but maybe if they go back to benchmarking. The Govt. is worried about knock on pay demands and righly so.

It is a great pity that the Government are not so concerned about the constraints on our public finances when dealing with their pals the barristers at the tribunals.
Or when handing over a billion to their pals in the NTR so they can toll a road differently.
Or when using a government aircraft to fly to private engagements
Or when spending 60 odd million on useless evoting machines the list goes on and on.

No they throw money around like confetti at a wedding but preach fiscal rectitude to nurses.

Voipjunkie

ballooba wrote:

If the nurses feel that the source of inefficiencies lies with other workers then they should highlight that to the public. If the highlight what needs to be fixed then it can be fixed and there will be money.

Of course private sector workers see public sector workers as having a cushy number. The scope to leech off the system is there far more than in the private sector. Of course private sector workers aren't going to sit back and watch people leech off of them. Another difference between private and public sector workers is that we don't pay private sector wages.

Meanwhile back in the real world

I see plenty of people in the private sector with cushy numbers and we are paying their wages as well when we buy in those shops or purchase the product or service from the company that they work for we are paying for those people to be on the wage bill as well.
I have worked in both and I have seen people in the private sector get a way with things that would not have been tolerated in the public sector. It is very easy and lazy to stereotype public sector workers as lazy I guarantee that the vast majority of people work nowhere near as hard as our nurses, gardai,
firemen, teachers etc etc

A Random Walk

Voipjunkie wrote:

I guarantee that the vast majority of people work nowhere near as hard as our nurses, gardai,
firemen, teachers etc etc

Oh please, let's not start this.

With the private sector however you do have the right (and some would say the obligation) to take your business elsewhere if you feel you haven't received good enough service. What happens if I don't feel the Guards give me good enough service?

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

I see plenty of people in the private sector with cushy numbers and we are paying their wages as well when we buy in those shops or purchase the product or service from the company that they work for we are paying for those people to be on the wage bill as well.

Private sector businesses operate in an open market. You as a consumer have a choice whether or not you buy from an inefficient company. I often buy from the UK for this reason, sometimes not enough choice in our small economy. There's another argument right there for privatisation. Public sector workers need expect no sympathy from private sector workers with regard to privatisation unless they accept reform.

Voipjunkie wrote:

It is very easy and lazy to stereotype public sector workers as lazy I guarantee that the vast majority of people work nowhere near as hard as our nurses, gardai,
firemen, teachers etc etc

I'm sure they are. Those people should have no problem with reform if their colleagues are abusing the system. It's their money too.

K-9

Voipjunkie wrote:

Of course unions can be wrong I dont believe anyone or anything is infallible.

And of course unions are self motivated that is their purpose. That is the problem most of you seem to believe that unions should be impartial they are not and never can be they are their to act in the best interest of their members not the best interest of the HSE ,the Government, the taxpayer, FF or the PDs.

Which is why SIPTU aren't happy with the Nurses Unions going alone. They have a wider interests to look after than the Nurses Unions.

K-9

Voipjunkie wrote:

It is a great pity that the Government are not so concerned about the constraints on our public finances when dealing with their pals the barristers at the tribunals.
Or when handing over a billion to their pals in the NTR so they can toll a road differently.
Or when using a government aircraft to fly to private engagements
Or when spending 60 odd million on useless evoting machines the list goes on and on.

No they throw money around like confetti at a wedding but preach fiscal rectitude to nurses.

And whats that got to do with the nurses strike. On NTR people laughed when it was opened first and nobody was using it. Business specialists thought it was mad and it would never work. Somebody took a risk and it payed off.

Hindsights a wonderful thing.

Some other opinion on the nurses strike:
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqs=news-qqqid=22569-qqqx=1.asp
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqm=nav-qqqid=22551-qqqx=1.asp

Before anybody else says it, these do come with a Health Warning . Its the Business Post after all but they do include opinions from SIPTU, INO etc.

To me, there are far more pressing concerns and reforms needed in the Health Service than a 35hr week for nurses.

Voipjunkie

Seanies32 wrote:

Which is why SIPTU aren't happy with the Nurses Unions going alone. They have a wider interests to look after than the Nurses Unions.

Which is why IMO SIPTU is a poor union to be a member of as they sell their members out all the time.
They are too big and individual branches have no power as was demonstrated in the Aer Lingus dispute when Liberty hall over ruled the local branch.

Voipjunkie

Seanies32 wrote:

And whats that got to do with the nurses strike. On NTR people laughed when it was opened first and nobody was using it. Business specialists thought it was mad and it would never work. Somebody took a risk and it payed off.

Hindsights a wonderful thing.

Some other opinion on the nurses strike:
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqs=news-qqqid=22569-qqqx=1.asp
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqm=nav-qqqid=22551-qqqx=1.asp

Before anybody else says it, these do come with a Health Warning . Its the Business Post after all but they do include opinions from SIPTU, INO etc.

To me, there are far more pressing concerns and reforms needed in the Health Service than a 35hr week for nurses.

What it has to do with the nurses strike is that a government that is so wasteful of taxpayers money has no credibility when it argues that it is opposing better pay and conditions for nurses on the basis of financial rectitude.
Either they care about how taxpayers money is spent in which case you have to ask why are they so wasteful in other cases or they dont mind wasting money on vanity projects but not on real things like paying nurses properly.

K-9

Voipjunkie wrote:

Which is why IMO SIPTU is a poor union to be a member of as they sell their members out all the time.
They are too big and individual branches have no power as was demonstrated in the Aer Lingus dispute when Liberty hall over ruled the local branch.

Well the Teachers and train drivers didn't really benefit that much from their unions being smaller .

Voipjunkie wrote:

What it has to do with the nurses strike is that a government that is so wasteful of taxpayers money has no credibility when it argues that it is opposing better pay and conditions for nurses on the basis of financial rectitude.
Either they care about how taxpayers money is spent in which case you have to ask why are they so wasteful in other cases or they dont mind wasting money on vanity projects but not on real things like paying nurses properly.

They actually haven't opposed the 35 hour week in principle. Bertie and Mary Harney have said they have no problem with it, but it needs serious planning as it will affect the rest of the Health Service.

However employing maybe 4,000 extra nurses to cover the reduction in hours as most of them don't work 39 hours anyway is off major concern as is the knock on pay demands from nearly every public sector job that will eventually materialise.

Reforming the Health Service is of far more priority than Nurses demands at the minute.

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

Either they care about how taxpayers money is spent in which case you have to ask why are they so wasteful in other cases or they dont mind wasting money on vanity projects but not on real things like paying nurses properly.

Your union buddies have a lot more to answer for than the headline excesses like PPARS, Thornton Hall etc.

I love(;)) the whole finger pointing in the public sector. Everyone likes to make out like it is someone else's fault so that in the end no one has to accept responsibility.

Voipjunkie

Seanies32 wrote:

Well the Teachers and train drivers didn't really benefit that much from their unions being smaller .



They actually haven't opposed the 35 hour week in principle. Bertie and Mary Harney have said they have no problem with it, but it needs serious planning as it will affect the rest of the Health Service.

However employing maybe 4,000 extra nurses to cover the reduction in hours as most of them don't work 39 hours anyway is off major concern as is the knock on pay demands from nearly every public sector job that will eventually materialise.

Reforming the Health Service is of far more priority than Nurses demands at the minute.

They have had 27 years to plan it and this government have had 10 years in power and what moves have they made in the preparation for a 35 hour week for nurses.
This is typical Bertie where he agrees with you it is his way of diverting attention from the fact that he has done nothing.

Voipjunkie

ballooba wrote:

Your union buddies have a lot more to answer for than the headline excesses like PPARS, Thornton Hall etc.

I love(;)) the whole finger pointing in the public sector. Everyone likes to make out like it is someone else's fault so that in the end no one has to accept responsibility.

Well give us an example of where the unions have wasted hundreds of millions of taxpayers money on vanity or ill conceived programmes