Nurses Strike?

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

Well give us an example of where the unions have wasted hundreds of millions of taxpayers money on vanity or ill conceived programmes

Why would the unions undertake a project out of vanity? Unions don't start projects either. They protect lazy workers and demand unconditional wage increases. Greed is their vice, not vanity.

I don't know where the excess is, I would guess that it is probably systemic. I do know it's there though, the unions are very good at shifting the blame around continuously so that it never rests with any one.

K-9

So if Bertie says make it so tomorrow, all the Nurses demands will be met and of course the Health Service will be magically healed and cured tomorrow.

Less Nursing hours and more nurses pay will solve the health crisis.

A Random Walk

Seanies32 wrote:

Less Nursing hours and more nurses pay will solve the health crisis.

Spot on. Nurses need to stop trying to spin this dispute as somehow about the condition of the health service, it is about them trying to get more money and work fewer hours.

If we gave in to the nurses demands today, the health service would be no better off tomorrow. The taxpayer would then have to redirect 1 billion euro that could be spent on A&E, and instead give it to the nurses as a pay increase.

ballooba

A Random Walk wrote:

Spot on. Nurses need to stop trying to spin this dispute as somehow about the condition of the health service, it is about them trying to get more money and work fewer hours.

That was kind of my point. This is very negative PR for the nurses. They should have tackled the problems first, including their dimished standing. I think it was the wrong time to be going for a pay rise.

This is probably a poor anology but imagine you're working in the private sector. Your company is underperforming and there are huge problems with it's products/services. The shop steward rocks into the CEO's office and announces that he is calling a strike unless his members get a 20% raise. I think it would be a short meeting.

Villain

I was just listening to Radio and they had a Vox Pop with visitors to St Vincents Hospital asking them how they felt about the work stoppage planned for Wednesday and EVERY SINGLE person supported the nurses, FF and the PD's can try and spin this anyway they like but anybody that has been in hospitals in recent years will know how hard nurses work to try and keep this badly managed health system together.

Using Ballooba's anaology think about it this way:

A company is performing badly but every customer see's how hard the lower paid staff are working and supports their claim for more money yet they also see the managment getting huge overtime payments but their managment skills are making any real improvements and then you have the higher paid staff (Consultants) being able to work outside of the rules that apply to the lower paid staff so they can look for huge increases too.

The nurses are the problem with the health system they are one solution.

ballooba

Yes, but to extend your analogy. The company would not provide the pay rise. The money wouldn't be there. The business would fail and potentially the hard working staff you speak of would start their own business in the fallout. That can't happen in the public sector though.

Spyral

if nurses down tools without warning for half an hour they would then see how much they should get paid.

Its not fair however, social workers etc get paid the same if not more yet nurses have the responsibility for lives just like doctors do. Some nurses (ie midwives) are practitioners in their own right.


Its an attitude problem, nurses are viewed as doctors assistants and the government expects them to be little docile Florence Nightengales rather than professionals.

And on prime time, Mary Harney effectively said that they didint wnt to give them the money.

YET when the TDs want to get rises they can pass a bill no questions asked.
Or how about them getting 1 pension per ministerial post ?

Its rediculous.

A Random Walk

irish1 wrote:

I was just listening to Radio and they had a Vox Pop with visitors to St Vincents Hospital asking them how they felt about the work stoppage planned for Wednesday and EVERY SINGLE person supported the nurses, FF and the PD's can try and spin this anyway they like but anybody that has been in hospitals in recent years will know how hard nurses work to try and keep this badly managed health system together.

Tell us again how giving nurses a payrise and a cut in working hours from their current massive 39 hours will improve the health service?

This voxpop has no validity as a barometer of public opinion. I was speaking to a nurse over the weekend and she made the same point, that they are getting great support in the hospitals but is a bit upset with the lack of support she found outside. Nurses union representatives should have prepared their people better.

Ask yourself one question. You are visiting a sick relative in a hospital and are asked whether you support nurses or not. How do you think you are going to answer? You'd be an idiot to say you didn't support them for fear of your relative getting less than enthusiastic care. Particularly if you were someone who was willing to say so on radio or TV. Don't be so naive.

K-9

Voipjunkie wrote:

Well give us an example of where the unions have wasted hundreds of millions of taxpayers money on vanity or ill conceived programmes

Relocation expenses for moving across the bloody road.

K-9

irish1 wrote:

Using Ballooba's anaology think about it this way:

A company is performing badly but every customer see's how hard the lower paid staff are working and supports their claim for more money yet they also see the managment getting huge overtime payments but their managment skills are making any real improvements and then you have the higher paid staff (Consultants) being able to work outside of the rules that apply to the lower paid staff so they can look for huge increases too.

The nurses are the problem with the health system they are one solution.

Probably why they are reforming the contracts at the minute. Can't wait to see the consultants going on strike over wages of €160-210,000. Maybe they should reduce their wages and give it to the nurses.

Our greta health service. Every section (Nurses, Unions, Consultants, Govt./HSE) it's got nothing to do with me, its their fault. Sure there overpaid, so should we.

marco murphy

Question. I've heard people say ''The govt. can't give any rise to nurses, then they would have to give rise to everyone else''

Who exactly?

K-9

Poblachtach wrote:

Question. I've heard people say ''The govt. can't give any rise to nurses, then they would have to give rise to everyone else''

Who exactly?

Ah, just give it a year or too. Other jobs/services saying sure the Nurses got it, why not us. It's the nature of the Public Sector Pay beast and one of the reasons they are paid 43% more than private sector workers.

Most sectors/Unions signed up to Benchmarking though of course some did have problems with it. If you cave into the Nurses without Benchmarking, it send out the wrong message.

Basically, whats the point in having benchmarking if its going to be ignored.

Voipjunkie

Seanies32 wrote:

Relocation expenses for moving across the bloody road.

Yeah thats up there with PPARS and e-voting machines :rolleyes:

Voipjunkie

ballooba wrote:

Why would the unions undertake a project out of vanity? Unions don't start projects either. They protect lazy workers and demand unconditional wage increases. Greed is their vice, not vanity.

I don't know where the excess is, I would guess that it is probably systemic. I do know it's there though, the unions are very good at shifting the blame around continuously so that it never rests with any one.

So you don't know where the waste is but you know who is responsible for it and its not the people who get paid to run the health system. Please

K-9

Voipjunkie wrote:

Yeah thats up there with PPARS and e-voting machines :rolleyes:

Of course I'm not going to defend PPARS but that doesn't mean it's ok for relocation expenses either.

Voipjunkie wrote:

So you don't know where the waste is but you know who is responsible for it and its not the people who get paid to run the health system. Please

The Nurses Unions have said they will change work practices etc. Kind of an admission that it isn't perfect.

Nobody is suggesting there isn't waste with administrators/HSE etc.

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

So you don't know where the waste is but you know who is responsible for it and its not the people who get paid to run the health system. Please

Two wrongs don't make a right. All too often that sentiment is used for justification of corruption.

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

So you don't know where the waste is but you know who is responsible for it and its not the people who get paid to run the health system. Please

These mysterious managers are civil servants too. They are probably unions members also.

ronbyrne2005

Nurses are in a job they obviously like(or they would'nt be there, most are naturally empathic and this work appeals to them) and they work 39hrs a week or less and straight out of college they can earn 32k basic and 38k with a little overtime.They are also guaranteed job security and get a great pension. These are the facts. They are well paid to do their desired career. Vast majority of graduates who are as well or better qualified than nurses get nothing like those pay and conditions and would jump at the chance of getting them. When you factor in the pension and job security a recently qualified nurse earning basic 32k for doing a shorter week than most people has a great career! Stand firm against public sector extortion.

Villain

ballooba wrote:

Yes, but to extend your analogy. The company would not provide the pay rise. The money wouldn't be there. The business would fail and potentially the hard working staff you speak of would start their own business in the fallout. That can't happen in the public sector though.

Ah but just because a company isn't going well doesn't mean they can't give pay rises to try and turn things around, I'm not saying that paying Nurses more will solve the crisis but not having them on board will make it a lot worse.

A Random Walk wrote:

Tell us again how giving nurses a payrise and a cut in working hours from their current massive 39 hours will improve the health service?

Well having nurses leaving the Public sector or leaving the profession altogether is certainly not going to help the health system, replacing them with nurses from other countries who have language problems isn't going to help either.

A Random Walk wrote:

This voxpop has no validity as a barometer of public opinion. I was speaking to a nurse over the weekend and she made the same point, that they are getting great support in the hospitals but is a bit upset with the lack of support she found outside. Nurses union representatives should have prepared their people better.

Ask yourself one question. You are visiting a sick relative in a hospital and are asked whether you support nurses or not. How do you think you are going to answer? You'd be an idiot to say you didn't support them for fear of your relative getting less than enthusiastic care. Particularly if you were someone who was willing to say so on radio or TV. Don't be so naive..

Well I don't currently have any relatives in hospital but I have seen far too much of our hospitals over the last 10 years and I know how hard the majority of nurses work, they deserve a good salary and decent working conditions, I would love for you to follow a nurse in any of our large and A&E departments for a day and see how hard they work and how far they go to help patients, they are over worked and underpaid and don't have the option to do private work in the same hospitals for large sums of money like consultants do.

You can excuse the Vox Pop all you want but I really do believe that if people were asked who they support in this issue the Government or the Nurses the majority would support the nurses.

A Random Walk

irish1 wrote:

You can excuse the Vox Pop all you want but I really do believe that if people were asked who they support in this issue the Government or the Nurses the majority would support the nurses.

Luckily enough you don't have to travel too far to get your answer. Just in case you think the vote is close, remember that there are a considerable number of nurses posting on the thread who have presumably voted "yes".

Villain

A Random Walk wrote:

Luckily enough you don't have to travel too far to get your answer. Just in case you think the vote is close, remember that there are a considerable number of nurses posting on the thread who have presumably voted "yes".

Ah you only have to look at politics polls in the past here to know how far removed from the general public they are I mean SF would have about 50 seats in the next Dail if polls here were anything to go by.

I like the way you only replied to that part of my post though

K-9

irish1 wrote:

Ah but just because a company isn't going well doesn't mean they can't give pay rises to try and turn things around, I'm not saying that paying Nurses more will solve the crisis but not having them on board will make it a lot worse.

Yes, but the company can shut down if its economically unviable. Public sector workers are already paid 43% more than the private sector. If that pay gap gets bigger eventually there will be less and less taxes available to meet the Public sector pay and we'll be back to the 80's scenario.

irish1 wrote:

Well having nurses leaving the Public sector or leaving the profession altogether is certainly not going to help the health system, replacing them with nurses from other countries who have language problems isn't going to help either.

I think somebody pointed out plenty of nurses are applying through the CAO system and plenty of mature students are applying. There doesn't seem to be a recruitment problem which suggests it is still an attractive career option.

irish1 wrote:

they are over worked and underpaid and don't have the option to do private work in the same hospitals for large sums of money like consultants do.

Harney and the HSE are sorting this out at the minute and not before time.

irish1 wrote:

You can excuse the Vox Pop all you want but I really do believe that if people were asked who they support in this issue the Government or the Nurses the majority would support the nurses.

But if it goes on for months, the public will say enoughs enough, get into talks and sort it out like reasonable adults:)

Wurly

I would like to say something here...

My father is in St Vincents Hospital suffering from lung cancer. He is receiving chemotherpay at the moment. To date, his treatment has never been put in jeopardy due to the strike and the nurses have been wonderful to him.

What people seem to forget is - nurses at present are just not answering phones and doing admin work - that was never part of their job description in the first place but they took this additional role on anyway.

I am a secretary and have been involved in various different strike actions in the past due to pay and conditions. Why cant nurses receive the same right as me to strike?! To suggest that a nurse should not be allowed to strike due to ill patients is ludicrous. The majority of people who studied to become a nurse did so because they wanted to help people but that doesnt mean that they should work for crappy money and long draining days.

Its very easy for us in the private sector to sit at our desks during our guaranteed 9-5 hour days dissing the nurses. Nursing is an extremely stressful job that requires complete attention to detail at all times. I never went to college, just worked my way up. At present, I am coming out with more every month than my friend who is a nurse and she works more hours than me. Furthermore, I get paid more for typing up letters etc than she does for potentially saving someone's life.

Lets get real here - nurses would never walk out on a critical patient to adhere to their strike. We will most certainly need at one point in our lives the help of a nurse so lets treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve. 6 years waiting on this benchmarking is a damn disgrace and I am appaled at the self centered attitude of the general public quite frankly.

Work To Rule - you have my vote!

K-9

Tri wrote:

Its very easy for us in the private sector to sit at our desks during our guaranteed 9-5 hour days dissing the nurses. Nursing is an extremely stressful job that requires complete attention to detail at all times. I never went to college, just worked my way up. At present, I am coming out with more every month than my friend who is a nurse and she works more hours than me. Furthermore, I get paid more for typing up letters etc than she does for potentially saving someone's life.
6 years waiting on this benchmarking is a damn disgrace and I am appaled at the self centered attitude of the general public quite frankly.

Work To Rule - you have my vote!

What posters I think on this thread are annoyed about is things like this:

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006397.shtml

Public sector workers have received massive increases in the last 5 years. Nobody is saying nurses don't do a great job, just if they want there increases take it off the public sector pay already there, not by increasing already high wage rates compared to private sector workers.

Tri wrote:

My father is in St Vincents Hospital suffering from lung cancer. He is receiving chemotherpay at the moment. To date, his treatment has never been put in jeopardy due to the strike and the nurses have been wonderful to him.

My sympathy goes to you. However I would expect the nurses to be good to him. They are professionals.

Wurly

Thanks Seanies, very sweet of you.:)

unkel

I heard the average wage for a nurse was about €55k (taking into account shift work, etc.) A nurse has job security and an full guaranteed state pension

I've great respect for nurses and I know they have a very tough job at times, but those perks are extremely generous already, aren't they?


I've only skimmed this thread, sorry if I seem to be barging in

K-9

Tri wrote:

Thanks Seanies, very sweet of you.:)

I did mean it. Goes to show we aren't all capitalist pigs:)

The public sector pay bill is very worrying especially with the Celtic Tiger not purring not roaring.

It's very easy to look at the nurses demands, which are hard not to agree with, but there is a bigger picture.

Wurly

Unkel, id love to know where you 'heard' that figure from. Its completely untrue. With no disrespect - thats why the public are so arsey with the nurses strike. They are acting on hearsay as opposed to the facts.

But thats the Irish for ya, isnt it. A nation of moaners and begrudgers.:D

It came from the HSE iirc though I don't recall the exact average figure-just that it didn't make nurses sound like they were living on a frugal wage if they are on a sub 40 hr week.

They are looking for 35hrs and are currently on an average of 39hrs which is the figure in my head correct me please if I am wrong (but link me to a definitive answer if you are doing that).

Now heres an article with the pay of an average staff nurse.
Brendan Keenan says its €43,330 per year and has risen by 75% in the last 10 years.
That may well,it wouldn't surprise me hit €50k for those using a lot of overtime.

I'll post the article in full because as like most of Brendans aricles,its a good read

A DOCTOR writes. Well, one did in the newspapers last week, on the nurses' dispute, complaining about highly paid politicians, pundits and HSE spin doctors doing down the "hard-working, under-paid" nurses.

As a good doctor should, he put his finger on the problem. He did not actually deal with levels of pay, and quite right too. It is as impossible to compare the relative pay of nurses and pundits, say, as it is to compare nurses and, say, consultants. Well, harder in fact.

What one can compare is the rate at which pay changes, which is what he did, although in the very narrow case of the Taoiseach's salary only. This has gone up by almost 140 per cent since 1997, whereas that of the average industrial worker has risen by less than 60 per cent, to €32,000 a year.

And that was it. No mention of pundits, I'm glad to say. But no mention of nurses, either. So I asked for the official figures on the changes in the maximum on nurses' pay scales. These show that the salary of a staff nurse has gone up by 75 per cent since 1997, of a clinical nurse manager by 99 per cent, and that of a director of nursing by 120 per cent, if their performance merits the top officials' bonus - which most, if not all of them, one is glad to report, do.

Every grade moved comfortably ahead of the famous average industrial worker. As I say, one cannot define whether a staff nurse earning €43,430 a year is underpaid, overpaid, or paid just right. What one can say is that, not only are they better paid than a typical industrial worker, but also than the average for a shop worker or a hotel worker, or even a construction worker, as reported by the wage surveys of the Central Statistics Office.

Staff in banks and skilled builders may do better, but that is about all. It has always been thus, and there are some - not entirely convincing - arguments that all the differences can be explained by higher qualifications among public sector workers. That does not explain why their earnings have risen faster than those in the private sector in the past 10 years. Still less does it explain why those in senior positions have seen their pay rise even faster. But that might help explain why there is a dispute and general unrest.

The Taoiseach's pay has risen quicker than any because he is at the top of the tree. He is not alone in the canopy. All the most senior public servants have seen similar rises. Even so, increasingly, not even guaranteed salaries of a quarter of a million, with half-pay for life after retirement, are enough for this select group.

Top public jobs are often filled with private sector contracts at even fancier salaries, on equally unconvincing arguments that these are necessary to get people competent to do these jobs. The HSE is a case in point.

We know where this trend has come from. It comes from the similar widening of pay differentials in the private sector. Last week, as it happened, we heard of the €2.4m package for the head of AIB, and €8m emoluments for directors of CRH.

Economists have struggled to find a technical explanation for the huge widening of pay differentials between the shopfloor and the executive

'Taxpayers and patients do not need to know whether nurses are underpaid, overpaid, overworked or underworked'

suite. Typically, it has gone from a multiple of six to one of 18. The experts cite lossof trade union power, shareholder apathy while stock markets are booming, or even globalisation putting a premium on executive pay.

The idea that shareholders do not really mind so long as the capital gains and dividends are rolling in strikes me as the most plausible. But what has that got to do with the public sector? The great bull market of the past 25 years has cast a question over the whole idea of linking the salaries of politicians and senior officials to this strange, controversial set of circumstances among company executives.

The shareholders in this case are the taxpayers. They might accept that public sector salaries should rise in line with national income, at least over the long term. Linking top pay to comparitors which now consistently rise at multiples of national income is a different matter.

It does not help that, whatever one's opinion about the abilities of those who run AIB or CRH, almost every investigation of public sector management finds gross incompetence. Nowhere is this more true than in the health service. The Brennan report found little evidence of any management at all. Last week's official reporton mental health services spoke of "dysfunctional" management.

The HSE plan idea was pretty much strangled at birth by the existing, incompetent managers insisting that nothing should change. Except, of course, their pay. It is also a truism that badly-run organisations have bad industrial relations. Adda widening pay gap between grades and trouble is inevitable.

Taxpayers and patients do not need to know whether nurses are underpaid, overpaid, overworked or underworked. They already know that they get nothing like the service they are entitled to expect for the money they pay in, and nor will they get anything better for coughing up another €1bn a year.

Brendan Keenan

( link - subscription needed )

thebitterpill

Tri wrote:

Unkel, id love to know where you 'heard' that figure from. Its completely untrue. With no disrespect - thats why the public are so arsey with the nurses strike. They are acting on hearsay as opposed to the facts.

But thats the Irish for ya, isnt it. A nation of moaners and begrudgers.:D

the 56k figure was quoted on Prime Time last week by the HSE rep invited to talk on the show. It wasn't refuted by the INO rep who was also present, which is why it's not being disputed as a general figure.