Nurses Strike?

bobbyjoe

Regarding point 4 from redspider.
They have been working harder, training harder etc are aren't getting anything for it.
McDonalds!!!

El Stuntman

random thoughts on this fiasco:

I'm no fan of Bertie but I think he is producing a study in masterly inactivity on this strike

keep ignoring them Bert!

I thought the various threats coming from nurses to FF politicans along the lines of "we'll remember you at the election" only served to underline their increasing desperation....they have been led into a blind alley by their incompetent leaders

extragon

I think redspider is partly right, though farming out medical expertise to India wouldn't work ( and would be a legal nightmare ).
But - a lack of medical specialists ( or the rationing of medical expertise by overpaid consultants ) is one of the causes for Ireland's poor health service. When nurses, or junior doctors, are not working hard it is often because they have done all they can. It is medical specialists who, in most hospital cases, get the queue moving and do the substantive work. The number of specialists in Irish hospitals is well below the Western European norm. There are acute "general hospitals" all over Ireland that do not even have a paediatrician. l

A more general problem: the junior doctor acting as messenger boy, clerk, blood taker; the highly skilled nurse acting as waitress, bed pan carrier etc. etc. There is often a mismatch between skills needed/available and the work with not enough low paid "helpers," not enough highly skilled, and too many in the middle - reflecting lower levels of care in the past, and very bad value for money.

re. money. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a staff nurse in Ireland earns between 25 and 37 thousand, while in France the range is about 16 to 27 thousand. ( Medical specialists earn less as well, and there's far more of them - which is one reason for shorter waiting lists. )

redspider

bobbyjoe wrote:

Regarding point 4 from redspider.
They have been working harder, training harder etc are aren't getting anything for it. McDonalds!!!

Okay, perhaps the jibe using McDonalds was a bit low but it was just a mark of frustration rather than anything else. It is galling that Patients are being affacted by their work-to-rule action YET the Nurses have plenty of time. A state of frenzy like ER is not the real world but such a situation in comparison with what was going on would be chalk and cheese. This was NOT a frenetic A&E yet there were people waiting outside, people waiting on trolley's, etc.

If we compare Nurses work situation to 30 or 40 years ago where they were (probably) slave-driven by mussolini-like Nun Matron's, I have no doubt that they do NOT work harder than they did back then. However, the work is perhaps more cerebral as medicine is getting more complex all the time, there is no doubt about that and I do appreciate their responsibilities.

I think Nurses should be rewarded fairly for that, and the benchmarking process, which is geared lest we forget to reward the public sector at a rate which is higher than that of the commercial market, is a reasonable process for them. They can change jobs if they are not satisfied and indeed there are some opportunities in the private space for them.

Redspider

redspider

extragon wrote:

farming out medical expertise to India wouldn't work ( and would be a legal nightmare ).
But - a lack of medical specialists ( or the rationing of medical expertise by overpaid consultants ) is one of the causes for Ireland's poor health service. The number of specialists in Irish hospitals is well below the Western European norm. There are acute "general hospitals" all over Ireland that do not even have a paediatrician.

A more general problem: the junior doctor acting as messenger boy, clerk, blood taker; the highly skilled nurse acting as waitress, bed pan carrier etc. etc. There is often a mismatch between skills needed/available and the work with not enough low paid "helpers," not enough highly skilled, and too many in the middle - reflecting lower levels of care in the past, and very bad value for money.

re. money. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a staff nurse in Ireland earns between 25 and 37 thousand, while in France the range is about 16 to 27 thousand. ( Medical specialists earn less as well, and there's far more of them - which is one reason for shorter waiting lists. )

I agree with most of that.

I think the 'outsourcing' or 'shared services' expert model would work whether they are based in Dublin, New York, Mumbai or Manila. Currently, the task that Experts/Specialists/Consultants spend their most time doing is would you believe walking around from patient to patient! There IS a better use of their time using the phone and telemedicine which does not have to be overly complex. It will come in time I am sure.

Yes, the cost of the Health Service in Ireland is bad value for money when compared with other countries in Europe. Nurses I understand have a wage bill of 2.2billion shared between 40,000, which would imply that they arer paid 55k on average each, although I'm not sure how much of that value is employer PRSI or indeed if training costs and other staff costs are included in that. Shift work is perhaps generous. Many work 3x 12 hr shifts as their working week. Requesting effectively 20% on top of what they are getting would cost approx 440m, which is 100 euro per head from everyone in the country! That is not sustainable if other groups seek similar.

Overall, I think the work-to-rule aspect of their protest is losing them a lot more support perhaps than they estimated and the longer this drags on the worse their position may get in the public eye.

Redspider

sovtek

El Stuntman wrote:

the companies whose business built this tiger economy (Dell, Microsoft etc)would run a mile out of here if unionisation was to be suggested in their facilities

and their employees still seem quite happy

so I disagree....[/QUOTE]

It's debatable that they built the tiger economy and it's most definetly over anyway.
For every MS there's a Motorola..etc etc. They aint' all happy clappy at MS either, I've worked there I know. They will all move to India anyway fairly soon so what you have left then?

Dontico

Any nurse that goes on strike should be arrestes as a traitor against Ireland. Human lives should not be used as bargining chips. Holding people ransom inorder to get the govenment to do something, is a terrorist act.
They should be replaced with immagrant workers.

A relation of mine is in hospital now. I have already accepted that he'll be dead within a few days. But if I find out that the nurse that was suspose to take care of him in his final hours went on strike, I will protest outside her house until she is arrested as a terrorist.

Hotblack Desiato

Seanies32 wrote:

Nurses are saying they are not happy with benchmarking. Well so is everybody else outside of the public sector and even some of the unions within it.

True. Many within the public sectore are extremely unhappy with Towards 2016 but nonetheless voted for it, as 'the only show in town' and are now locked into pay increases below inflation. If nurses can break ranks and get away with it, then all bets are off.

Maybe give the Nurses there demands now and exclude them from benchmarking 2 coming up. They don't believe in benchmarking, fair enough, give them their demand now and exclude them from the extra 10% they will get from benchmarking.

Benchmarking 2 will be nothing like 10% and even the public sector unions would tell you this.
A lot of public servants in areas which never go on strike are angry at "being sold a pup" in Towards 2016.
Bottom line is: government must resist nurses pay claim, and only give cut in working hours in return for added productivity. Otherwise, we will be back to the bad old days of relativity claims and special claims, where different sectors are constantly playing catch-up with each other.

Hotblack Desiato

redspider wrote:

I think Nurses should be rewarded fairly for that, and the benchmarking process, which is geared lest we forget to reward the public sector at a rate which is higher than that of the commercial market, is a reasonable process for them.

That's a load of bull. The target pay level under benchmarking was the 75th percentile of equivalent private sector jobs. In other words, 25% of private sector workers in a given job would be earning more than the public sector workers deemed to be equivalent. Don't take what you read in the Indo as gospel.

They can change jobs if they are not satisfied and indeed there are some opportunities in the private space for them.

Some but not too many. There are quite a few public servants with no real opportunity to go into a private sector job, does that mean they should be paid less than those with better opportunities in the private sector?

Hotblack Desiato

Dontico wrote:

Any nurse that goes on strike should be arrestes as a traitor against Ireland. But if I find out that the nurse that was suspose to take care of him in his final hours went on strike, I will protest outside her house until she is arrested as a terrorist.

Nurses have a right to strike, you don't agree with their present dispute and I don't either, but nonetheless they have a right to strike if they see fit. They have gone to great lengths to minimise the impact, which actually makes their strike far less likely to succeed.
Terrorist? Please. :rolleyes:
and yes I sympathise with your situation, my mother is in hospital at the moment.

thebitterpill

ninja900 wrote:

Nurses have a right to strike, you don't agree with their present dispute and I don't either, but nonetheless they have a right to strike if they see fit. They have gone to great lengths to minimise the impact, which actually makes their strike far less likely to succeed.
Terrorist? Please. :rolleyes:
and yes I sympathise with your situation, my mother is in hospital at the moment.

They have the power to strike, it is a power they are abusing. This abuse is going to create a distance between the public and health professionals. It is also entrenching the opinion among many that unions are no good and will lessen public sympathy in Ireland when strikes are used to highlight severe and critical issues within health and other wise.

The boy who cried wolf etc.

Spyral

I think what annoys nurses is that a social worker with less hours or a care assistant gets almost as much money as them and the differnence is not enouf to justify the extra hours OR the fact that nurses have a responsibilty for life.

Personally all the nurses should go to austrailia where they will be valued and f*ck over the irish goverenment who has been doing the same to them. When TDs want a pay rise there's never a problem and the government has wasted so much money in the past, throwing money at issues yet they cant do the same for nurses who work hard often unsociable hours.

fly_agaric

Red Spider wrote:

1. More Doctors, NOW --- ship them in, Junior ones, and the next level up.

How about putting a bit of money in and actually training some more Irish doctors instead of relying on big fees paid by non-EU medical students to help keep the Medical Schools going and constricting the supply of places in medicine to the point that a school leaver needs to have a near perfect leaving cert to get in the door.

I think what annoys nurses is ... that care assistants gets almost as much money as them

LOL. You know what annoys me...the way nurses earn far less than good tradesmen. It's a fúcking disgrace that the likes of them, many of them without "degrees" at all can much better money than a nurse.:mad:

is_that_so

fly_agaric wrote:

LOL. You know what annoys me...the way nurses earn far less than good tradesmen. It's a fúcking disgrace that the likes of them, many of them without "degrees" at all can much better money than a nurse.:mad:

They earn a lot more than a whole lot of other people with pieces of paper.

But good to see the possibility of re-engagement .

redspider

fly_agaric wrote:

How about putting a bit of money in and actually training some more Irish doctors instead of relying on big fees paid by non-EU medical students to help keep the Medical Schools going and constricting the supply of places in medicine to the point that a school leaver needs to have a near perfect leaving cert to get in the door.

I fully agree with you. RCSI should be teaching Doctors that are willing (contracted, financially encouraged) to work in Ireland/EU as should all the other medical schools. There should be more places available, etc.

Some steps have been made in that direction with the nw medical dept at UL, but its questionable whether the expansion thta was planned is keeping up with the population/demographic changes that are demanding more medical services.

Of course, Doctors are in demand on a worldwide basis as the global population is currently booming and demand outstrips supply.

Redspider

redspider

ninja900 wrote:

That's a load of bull. The target pay level under benchmarking was the 75th percentile of equivalent private sector jobs. In other words, 25% of private sector workers in a given job would be earning more than the public sector workers deemed to be equivalent. Don't take what you read in the Indo as gospel.

There are quite a few public servants with no real opportunity to go into a private sector job, does that mean they should be paid less than those with better opportunities in the private sector?

But the benchmarking process you must remember was/is obfuscated, cloaked and is/was a subjective exercise rather than anything else. Whats clear is that wage rates in the public sector per employee have soared and are well above the average commercial sector and industrial average, especially when fully costed in terms of PRSI, pensions, etc. Even the 75th percentile target means that the aim was to be paid better than 75% of equivalents in the private sector, which is not bad. There also was no proper linkage to productivity targets and improvements which should be part and parcel of any working person.

Its true we need a public sector, but they are currently living the life of reilly, not all of them, and some do some work at times and needed work, but it pales in comparison to the cut-throat nature of the commercial sector.

Ireland is not unique in this problem.

Redspider

meanmachine3

POWER TO THE NURSES is what i say. it's great for those gom-beings that we elected to run our country are not in benchmarking(NOT). we get a 2% pay increase and what does our beloved leader do he gives himself a 25% pay rise ,where oh where is the logic in that.the nurses deserve all they can get. in my opinion the whole country should go out on strike and do it in frenc style. all you hear from the H.S.E. is patients are being neglected.
No matter who goes on strike people are always going to be affected and someone somewhere will suffer.
If the gardai go out. people complain . crime goes up.
If the binmen go out. people complain . the rat population goes up.
If the buses go out. people complain. every one has to walk.
and so on and so forth.

oscarBravo

Sounds like a compelling argument that no-one should strike, rather than that everyone should. Unless, of course, you have a particular fondness for causing other people suffering.

redspider

I and no dount others have been saying this for years as it has been obvious to the dogs on the street:

www.rte.ie/news/2007/0420/consultants.html

Friday, 20 April 2007 15:42

The Comptroller and Auditor General has said public hospital patients are suffering because consultants are spending too much time working with their private patients in acute public hospitals.

In a report published today, John Purcell said the level of private treatments carried out by the 2,000 consultants in the State service generally exceeds the designated level.

He also said that consultant contracts are rarely subject to systematic review and that hospital management suffer from an absence of adequate records and a general lack of information to see if contracts are being discharged properly.

Welcoming the report, the Irish Medical Organisation said it confirms that serious difficulties are apparent in the management systems within hospitals and it highlights the need for verification systems.

The latter part equates that Consultants are 'a law unto themselves' as they account for their own time and no-one checks - ever!

meannachine3 wrote:

we get a 2% pay increase and what does our beloved leader do he gives himself a 25% pay rise ,where oh where is the logic in that

I agree that the Taoiseach's and other Ministerial and TD's pay, expenses, etc, has gone way out of kilter, not only with Nurses and the public sector workers but also in comparison to the commercial sector and indeed with politicians across the world.

But the list of those that are getting too much is long, where to start:

RTE so-called 'Stars'
3rd level academics
many departmental positions, mandarins, bureaucrats
ESB
etc
etc


I'm fully in support of rectifying wrongs, but the Nurses would be better not to strike. If they protest in their free time (lunch breaks, etc) that would be fine aand effective nd would gain a lot of public support. Why march for 1 hr when 15 mins will do?

Redspider

K-9

ninja900 wrote:

Benchmarking 2 will be nothing like 10% and even the public sector unions would tell you this.
A lot of public servants in areas which never go on strike are angry at "being sold a pup" in Towards 2016.
Bottom line is: government must resist nurses pay claim, and only give cut in working hours in return for added productivity. Otherwise, we will be back to the bad old days of relativity claims and special claims, where different sectors are constantly playing catch-up with each other.

Brendan Drumm was saying the same on RTE tonight and he is right. Budgets are going to be tighter with the economic slowdown so any increases should go on extra beds and facilities and not on existing staff. More nurses for more beds, yes, but not to cover 35 hour weeks.

Benchmarking should have very small increases as the increases in the average industrial wage as been very small in the last 4/5 years. If the reason it was introduced was to address the so called imbalance between public and private sectors well then this time the increases should be very small, the same as they have been for the private sector. Public servants wanted to be remunerated similarly to the private sector, the only thing is that is a double edged sword.

K-9

Spyral wrote:

I think what annoys nurses is that a social worker with less hours or a care assistant gets almost as much money as them and the differnence is not enouf to justify the extra hours OR the fact that nurses have a responsibilty for life.

Personally all the nurses should go to austrailia where they will be valued and f*ck over the irish goverenment who has been doing the same to them. When TDs want a pay rise there's never a problem and the government has wasted so much money in the past, throwing money at issues yet they cant do the same for nurses who work hard often unsociable hours.

So 166 TD's get increases so give the same to Nurses etc. etc. ? 2 wrongs don't make a right.

There was an article about a child social worker in the Tribune (not online though). That's a very tough job, physically and mentally and she was doing a 50/60 hour week to.

fly_agaric wrote:

LOL. You know what annoys me...the way nurses earn far less than good tradesmen. It's a fúcking disgrace that the likes of them, many of them without "degrees" at all can much better money than a nurse.

Engineers, Accountants, Teachers etc. etc. all unite!

fly_agaric

is_that_so wrote:

They earn a lot more than a whole lot of other people with pieces of paper.

Exactly. If there is a shortage of people willing/suitable to do a necessary job the wages/money to be made and conditions will improve. Or vice versa.

People in job x may think how since they are so much more important/responsible/educated than people in job y they should always be paid z much more in recognition of that. That is unrealistic when there is a market for jobs and people have a certain amount of choice about what job they will decide to do.

Even though nurses/careworkers/social workers are all in the same sector and can be compared more easily the principle still applies IMO.

redspider

There was a good article written by Damien Kiberd in last weeks issue of the Sunday Times outlining some of the problems in the health services in relation to the Nurses claims and the situation of the Consultants. He also agrees with the cloakery of benchmarking etc and also how it has rewarded the public sector to be well ahead of the private sector.

Another useful snippet was on this morning's radio and John Crown on Newstalk. He readily admitted the cosy situation that the Consultants now enjoy and how they are having their cake and eating it. I respect a lot of what he says and I would prefer if he was Minister for Health and/or head of the HSE. He speaks with a lot of sense.

Redspider

El Stuntman

has the deal been done yet?

El Stuntman

El Stuntman wrote:

has the deal been done yet?

oh, apparently not...they're back on strike again

fly_agaric

El Stuntman wrote:

oh, apparently not...they're back on strike again

LOL. IMO, Bertie has now tied himself down to a date so they've decided to bring a bit more of their heavy artillery to bear on the state's coffers...
cynical, moi!:)

I wonder - will they be on a full strike by May 24th?

darkman2

IMO its time now to start systematic sackings for the Nurses who choose to go on strike. We will not (the public) tolerate being blackmailed in an election.

Macy

darkman2 wrote:

IMO its time now to start systematic sackings for the Nurses who choose to go on strike. We will not (the public) tolerate being blackmailed in an election.

They have the right to strike, but go ahead with that plan. An all out strike within hours...

El Stuntman

fly_agaric wrote:

LOL. IMO, Bertie has now tied himself down to a date so they've decided to bring a bit more of their heavy artillery to bear on the state's coffers...
cynical, moi!:)

I wonder - will they be on a full strike by May 24th?

Liam Doran sounded even more angry and confused than usual on the radio this morning. Got a hard time too over specific issues where patients have suffered.

Seems to me like the tide of public opinion is turning against these angels of mercy/money grabbing opportunists.

I don't see a good end result in this for the nurses tbh. Even Pat Rabitte rubbished their pay claim yesterday, fair play to him - he's obviously well attuned to the public mood.

ronbyrne2005

Anyone notice the nurses' spokespeople seem to be using more emotive language over last few days? Saying things like "we care for sick babies and the dying 24 hrs a day 356 days a year" as if they were somehow forced into their career and enslaved in hosiptals all their live! They seem to have gotten all the nurses and their supporters to text similar sentiments into all the radio shows. No one is forcing them to work as nurses, the job obviously appeals to them and must reward them or they would all leave.

They are already best paid in EU yet want another 32%!! The 35hr week demand is a joke "we have been waiting 27 years blah blah blah" as if this was a human right or something! 70% of workers in health service are contracted for 39hr weeks.

The dont seem to realise how good they have it relative to vast majority in private sector- above average indutrial wage straight out of college, paid training while in college, job for life, life they love doing( this work obviously appeals to them as very empathic people), great pensions, flexible hours etc etc.

I think the HSE should threaten to import thousands of nurses cheaply from eastern europe and asia where nurse there can only dream of what nurse here earn and their conditions of employment etc.