Nurses Strike?

El Stuntman

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

The dont seem to realise how good they have it relative to vast majority in private sector- above average indutrial wage straight out of college, paid training while in college, job for life, life they love doing( this work obviously appeals to them as very empathic people), great pensions, flexible hours etc etc.

totally agree

the fact is we are not hearing logic here but rather feelings and emotions in relation to being undervalued etc....they have zero case and Joe Q Public has well and truly cottoned on to this

Red Alert

Why should the nurses let the hospitals treat them the same was as people have let the private sector treat them over the years? People are working in general longer than ever before, so have less time to enjoy their wealth.

The fact is that the nurses pick up the tab for a lot of the inefficiences, bad administration and bad planning that dog our health service. They are the ones getting complaints from everyone about everything, they are the ones that have to pick up the pieces when the health system predictably goes belly up. So I don't blame them one bit.

El Stuntman

Red Alert wrote:

Why should the nurses let the hospitals treat them the same was as people have let the private sector treat them over the years? People are working in general longer than ever before, so have less time to enjoy their wealth.

The fact is that the nurses pick up the tab for a lot of the inefficiences, bad administration and bad planning that dog our health service. They are the ones getting complaints from everyone about everything, they are the ones that have to pick up the pieces when the health system predictably goes belly up. So I don't blame them one bit.

question for you, Red Alert:

do you work and pay taxes?

(I'll assume yes)

here's the deal:

we do as you would like and cave in to this demand. Nurses get 10% pay increase across the board (plus benchmarking increases). They also work 10% less hours in return for this.
Cost to public purse = x

Next: The Guards see this and now engage in industrial action outside of the benchmarking process (they have already said they will do this if the nurses win their demands).
Cost to public purse = y

Next: the teachers see this and do the same (let's face it, they would be stupid not to). The Government again has to concede.
Cost to public purse = z

next: we get stuck in a rapidly escalating cycle of public pay claims at a time when the economy is already slowing down and we are rapidly losing competitiveness

Cost to public purse = x+y+z+ etc (lots of extra expense for less work)

Who pays for all of this???? YOU DO!!!!!!!!
Either in the form of increased taxes or reduced services.

Now do you understand why doing public sector IR on the basis of feelings and emotions is a bad thing?

Sure we can all feel sorry for the nurses (I'd hate to do their job), but giving in to this opportunistic demand would be the thin end of the wedge. They are very well paid by European standards for the job they do, they have guaranteed jobs for life, public sector pensions, flexible working hours. No-one forced them to go into nursing and they can leave whenever they like if the stress gets too much.

Tea drinker

Well I think it's stupid to give anyone a raise and a reduction in hours at the same time.
Besides the "reduction" in hours for many will not materialise, they will work the same hours but get paid more overtime.
This is while we are told there is not enough nurses. How does this provide more?

A trainee nurse gets 29,000 right? That's more than many telecoms start their graduates at. And they work in a volatile industry, with the associated lack of security.

Also we have the consultants moaning about 205k, apparently more than their uk counterparts are paid. Sure what kind of house could you buy for 205k?.... like you buy a house a year. Oh the arrogance.

My best wishes to the nurses, I hope they get something, but asking for ANOTHER pay hike when most people have been left behind by their previous raises, well it's too much to ask.
They should complain, along with the rest of us, about the governments inflated salaries, multiple (fat) pensions etc.
Gov should lead by example. M harney highest paid health min in EU? Bertie 3rd or 4th highest paid politician in EU?

ronbyrne2005

Tea drinker wrote:

They should complain, along with the rest of us, about the governments inflated salaries, multiple (fat) pensions etc.
Gov should lead by example. M harney highest paid health min in EU? Bertie 3rd or 4th highest paid politician in EU?

Yeah the benchmarking ATM really payed out for those in public sector. Leaders of small countries like Ireland should'nt be getting more than president of USA and leaders of big countries in Europe.

thebitterpill

Red Alert wrote:

Why should the nurses let the hospitals treat them the same was as people have let the private sector treat them over the years? People are working in general longer than ever before, so have less time to enjoy their wealth.

The fact is that the nurses pick up the tab for a lot of the inefficiences, bad administration and bad planning that dog our health service. They are the ones getting complaints from everyone about everything, they are the ones that have to pick up the pieces when the health system predictably goes belly up. So I don't blame them one bit.

Could you give some examples of this? From my experience it is usually the intern on call who has to pick up the pieces when things go 'belly up.' Any time there is a problem it's always 'call the intern.'

The problem is that nurses have failed to show how they are being treated badly in any way. 39 hour work week, with wages that most in Ireland consider to be pretty reasonable.

El Stuntman

thebitterpill wrote:

The problem is that nurses have failed to show how they are being treated badly in any way. 39 hour work week, with wages that most in Ireland consider to be pretty reasonable.

well said

enjoying your blog btw, it really makes me not want to get sick for the next 20 years (not sure if that's a compliment or not, anyway it's a good read )

patsyh

Have asked this question here but havent got an answer from any nurses, any nurses here know the deal with the placards?

I notice that the nurses protests have placards stating that the Governments stance on the issue will cost them votes, but have the opposition(fine Gael) not stated that they will not give the nurses what they are demanding, so who are the nurses going to vote for?

El Stuntman

patsyh wrote:

Have asked this question here but havent got an answer from any nurses, any nurses here know the deal with the placards?

it seems like a completely empty threat to me, afaik all major parties have stressed that the nurses pay can only be dealt with through the established benchmarking process

Villain

The HSE have threatened to decuct nurses pay a very bad move imo, meaningful talks not threats is what we need. Anyone that has been unlucky enough to spend time in hospital in the past years will know the nurses are the only part of the HSE that are earning their money.

The overpayed management of the HSE have some cheek if they go ahead with this threat.

thebitterpill

irish1 wrote:

The HSE have threatened to decuct nurses pay a very bad move imo, meaningful talks not threats is what we need. Anyone that has been unlucky enough to spend time in hospital in the past years will know the nurses are the only part of the HSE that are earning their money.

The overpayed management of the HSE have some cheek if they go ahead with this threat.

The nurses have been escalating from day one. Now they are both at it and that's bad because it's going to turn into a game of one-upmanship. But personally, I think it's a game the nurses can't win. They don't have popular public support as it is, and that will only worsen if patients are made to suffer.
I think it's a calculated move by the HSE to push nurses into a corner.

I disagree that nurses are the only part of the HSE earning their money. I agree the management is over paid.

Villain

Ok maybe I was a little unfair when I said the nurses were the only ones earning their money, perhaps I should have said they are the group delivering best value for money.

I'm not sure the nurses don't have the popular public support, they had 60% support the last time I saw any poll and I'm not sure the public will side with the HSE when it comes to docking pay from the nurses.

El Stuntman

irish1 wrote:

The HSE have threatened to decuct nurses pay a very bad move imo, meaningful talks not threats is what we need. Anyone that has been unlucky enough to spend time in hospital in the past years will know the nurses are the only part of the HSE that are earning their money

they can have all the meaningful talks they want - within existing mechanisms

in the meantime, why should they be paid for not working? seems like a logical move to me by the HSE.

Villain

Were the HSE management paid when they took strike action last year?

Stopping pay isn't going to solve this issue it will imo only make things worse.

El Stuntman

irish1 wrote:

Stopping pay isn't going to solve this issue it will imo only make things worse.

or bring them to their senses

Villain

I don't think deducting pay from someone who is already underpaid is going to bring them to their senses, the Nurses union are well aware an election is coming in a few weeks and 40,000 votes are worth quite a bit. They won't be coming to any senses before that imo.

El Stuntman

irish1 wrote:

I don't think deducting pay from someone who is already underpaid is going to bring them to their senses, the Nurses union are well aware an election is coming in a few weeks and 40,000 votes are worth quite a bit. They won't be coming to any senses before that imo.

so by that argument their 40,000 votes will go to Sinn Fein?
(seeing as no other party will entertain these demands)

they are not underpaid. How on earth can you make this statement?

Villain

El Stuntman wrote:

so by that argument their 40,000 votes will go to Sinn Fein?
(seeing as no other party will entertain these demands)

Well I think you need to listen to the Parties a little more, Enda Kenny on Morning Ireland this morning said he would change bencmarking and he also seemed to suggest that he would allow them to get reduced hours in return for the work practive improvments that the nurses unions have already presented to the HSE

El Stuntman wrote:

they are not underpaid. How on earth can you make this statement?

Well considering a nurse who has over 20 years experience can be on €43k I think that is underpaid, have you seen the conditions they have to work in, I don't think anyone could say they are well paid or even paid enough.

El Stuntman

irish1 wrote:

Well I think you need to listen to the Parties a little more, Enda Kenny on Morning Ireland this morning said he would change bencmarking and he also seemed to suggest that he would allow them to get reduced hours in return for the work practive improvments that the nurses unions have already presented to the HSE

'seeming to suggest' hardly constitutes total acceptance of their demands!

although I think it would be great if the nurses voted en bloc for FG for these reasons , I have to say that they would be deluding themselves if they think a change to a FG-led government would mean instant capitulation to their demands

but we shall see, maybe in 6 months time you can tell me how wrong I was when the guards and teachers are on copycat strikes.

irish1 wrote:

Well considering a nurse who has over 20 years experience can be on €43k I think that is underpaid, have you seen the conditions they have to work in, I don't think anyone could say they are well paid or even paid enough.

it stacks up very well against international comparisons of nurses pay.
what's the average industrial wage - 27k or so?

Villain

El Stuntman wrote:

'seeming to suggest' hardly constitutes total acceptance of their demands!

although I think it would be great if the nurses voted en bloc for FG for these reasons , I have to say that they would be deluding themselves if they think a change to a FG-led government would mean instant capitulation to their demands

but we shall see, maybe in 6 months time you can tell me how wrong I was when the guards and teachers are on copycat strikes.

I wasn't able to hear the exact wording but I do believe he would give the 35 hour week in return for improved working practices and buy some time to change the benchmarking so they could have their pay claim addressed.

As I said 40,000 votes is a lot of votes, FG could even get half of those by saying they will agree to the 35 hour week.

El Stuntman wrote:

it stacks up very well against international comparisons of nurses pay.
what's the average industrial wage - 27k or so?

The average industrial wage in December 2006 was just under 33k, and you have to consider the conditions they have had to work in for the past 10 years.

ronbyrne2005

irish1 wrote:

Well considering a nurse who has over 20 years experience can be on €43k I think that is underpaid, have you seen the conditions they have to work in, I don't think anyone could say they are well paid or even paid enough.

Well if they are doing roughly same job after 20 years then why would you get more? 43k is a good salary when you factor in job security,flexibility and the great pension. A nurse who is in job 20 years could have done further training to progress to more advanced and better paid job or mangement position yet many chose not to do extra training and stay doing broadly same job that they did 5 or 10 or 20 years earlier. Our nurses already earn most in Europe yet they want much more.

El Stuntman

irish1 wrote:

I wasn't able to hear the exact wording but I do believe he would give the 35 hour week in return for improved working practices and buy some time to change the benchmarking so they could have their pay claim addressed.
As I said 40,000 votes is a lot of votes, FG could even get half of those by saying they will agree to the 35 hour week.

hopefully FG will not stoop to that level of auction politics and I don't believe they have in their campaigning to date. I did hear Kenny say at the weekend that a FG-led govt would be 'creative and imaginative' in finding a solution to this current dispute. That's hardly a commitment to get the nurses voting FG!

If you could post a link to what he said this morning, that would be helpful to see if FG have changed their position since the weekend. If they have, I certainly won't be voting for them.

irish1 wrote:

The average industrial wage in December 2006 was just under 33k, and you have to consider the conditions they have had to work in for the past 10 years.

see what ronbyrne said above. I agree fully with it.

if you can produce some independent numbers showing Irish nurses to be underpaid by European standards, then I will happily accept your claim that nurses are underpaid....over to you

Villain

You will find the conversation with Enda Kenny this morning @ http://www.rte.ie/news/morningireland/

A Student nurse earns €23,588, a Post registered student nurse with BSc Degree earns €27,035, hardly what you would call well paid, its much less than the average Industrial wage.

Also I haven't got any figures to compare with European pay level's but I also don't think the European hospitals are in as bad a state as ours.

ronbyrne2005

irish1 wrote:

You will find the conversation with Enda Kenny this morning @ http://www.rte.ie/news/morningireland/

A Student nurse earns €23,588, a Post registered student nurse with BSc Degree earns €27,035, hardly what you would call well paid, its much less than the average Industrial wage.

Also I haven't got any figures to compare with European pay level's but I also don't think the European hospitals are in as bad a state as ours.

A nurse straight out of a 4 year degree gets a basic of 32k which is a lot more than vast majority of new grads. With a little overtime(which other grad generally dont get paid for) and allowances this recently qualified nurse can earn 30-40k. Nurses get paid for the two years of thier degree spent in hospitals, other grads dont get paid while doing their degree unless there is work experience.
As for your point that european hospitals arent in as bad a state as ours , well then they should be out campaigning for and contributing to improvements in the service rather than trying to feather their own nests. They are best paid in europe despite providing no better service than in europe.

arctictree

irish1 wrote:

A Student nurse earns €23,588, a Post registered student nurse with BSc Degree earns €27,035, hardly what you would call well paid, its much less than the average Industrial wage.

€27,035 seems like a good salary for someone recently qualified with a BSc. Also, what makes you think that you should get the average industrial wage when you are just qualified? Maybe after a number of years work....

ronbyrne2005

Extract from factual info sheet.
An extra 10,207 nurses have been employed in the public health services since 1997 (an increase of 40%). A graduate nurse earns €31,233 as a basic starting salary. On average each nurse can earn an additional 23% in allowances and overtime. The basic starting salary is comparable with starting salaries for teachers and Gardai and the average industrial wage of €31,360. The average annual salary for a whole time equivalent nurse is in excess of €56,000 inclusive of premium payments.

So full time nurses earn on average 56k. This is a fact despite the denials of ino etc.

darkman2

I think the HSE should press on quickly and put the squeeze on Nurses pockets. Begin with the 13% reduction in wages tomorrow for those on strike. Then I think on a weekly basis the reduction in wages should be an extra 13%. Then once the election is over put the full squeeze on and make it a 100% deduction. This will send a clear message to the public service unions in Ireland that our democracy will not be undermined in such a sinister way ahead of a general election with threats and blackmail. There are mechanisms already availabe to nurses.

Wishbone Ash

There seems to be some confusion here and in the media in relation to the 13%. The HSE have threatened to deduct it from nurses "working to rule" and has nothing to do with the stoppages.

The nurses who have taken part in the one/two hour stoppages would automatically have their wages docked and that would have been expected.

The HSE does not pay any wages while nurses are on 'full' strike even though they still provide a level of care. Many nurse worked much harder than normal during the 1999 strike without pay and also lost 9 days superannuation reckoning.

patsyh

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

the great pension.

This is something that the whole public sector takes for granted and are more than happy to compare their wages to the industrial average when they are not a fair comparison. Go to any job nowdays in the public sector and the employer well pay flip all into your pension.

This has to be worth €5k to €10k per annum compared to somebody who has to foot their own pension. So add that on to the €56k and they arent doing too bad at all

El Stuntman

well speaking as someone whose natural home on Boards is the poker forum, I like the way this is playing out....5.30pm tomorrow, we should know who's bluffing and who's got the aces!

apart from irish1, it's interesting that no pro-nurse voices have appeared in this thread in the last few days. Reflective of public opinion?