Please Help! (photos included!)

cormie

Hi,
Following on from my battery problem, described here and here, it now wont start by using jump leads. There is a crunching sound and tiny sparks flying off one part of the engine. I had it connected to a Honda Civic battery today (it started the other day off a Ford Fiesta battery) for more than 5 minutes and the inside lights are still working so I'm guessing there is juice in the battery.

Anyway, I took these pics:



Does anyone know anything about this? If anyone can come out and fix tonight I will pay a reasonable rate as I need it for tomorrow:(

Any feedback appreciated:)

junkyard

It looks as if the bolt is after coming out of the starter and possibly disengaging the starter. It might go on a tow if your badly stuck but won't start off the key( second gear and ignition on etc.) but make sure they're no funny noises coming from the engine. The starter motor might be burnt out too. If you get it going and its o.k. you'll have to keep it running, if you do why don't you get a second key and lock the van if you have to leave it. Get it fixed as soon as you can though for your own sake.

cormie

junkyard wrote:

It might go on a tow if your badly stuck but won't start off the key( second gear and ignition on etc.)

What exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean go on a tow truck or getting people to push it? I've never started an engine in 2nd gear so not sure what that does either:o

cormie

by the way, is the part that the word "Bolt" is on in the first picture, the starter?

junkyard

cormie wrote:

by the way, is the part that the word "Bolt" is on in the first picture, the starter?

Yeah and the "thing" with the sparks coming out of it. You'll need a tow not a push and my advice is to get someone who's done it before or you'll end up killing yourself or someone else.

mloc123

Like junkyard said it looks like your starter motor has come loose, if the leads are sparking it could be down to a poor connection.. possibly caused by the motor shifting around if it is loose. Bolt it back in and secure the leads.

rebel.ranter

Yea your starter has workeed itself loose. The missing bolt is preventing the the cog on the starter cog from engaging with the cog on the engine, therefore the engine can turn over.
You can mimic the starter moter by push starting the van. This is done by using the gear box in place of the starter motor. How do you do this? Well you need to have the van rolling, so either let it roll down a hill, tow it with another car or get a few strong friends to push it. Here's how the whole thing works:
1. You need to put the key into position 2, the one that brings all the lights on in the instrument cluster (position 1 is the one that allows yuo to turn on the radio, but not fan etc.)
2. Then put the van into 2nd gear, put your foot on the clutch.
3. Get your strong friends to push the van with your foot still on the clutch & in 2nd gear.
4. When you have built up a good bit of momentum from the push, let the clutch out until the engine fires up and then push it back in again. Either that or the wire is a positive wire going to the solenoid and it is earting off the body of the engine, a recipie for an electrical fire!!

So in effect you are using the gearbox as a starter motor.

Bring it to a garage to get it sorted though, I know you are just starting in business but remember the van is your livelihood so make some other sacrafice to get it running right, your customers will not appreciate any issues. Best of luck.

The body and engine are all connected to the earth terminal of the battery, the sparks may be as a result of the loose earth connection (which is a result of the missing bolt).

Darragh29

mloc123 wrote:

Like junkyard said it looks like your starter motor has come loose, if the leads are sparking it could be down to a poor connection.. possibly caused by the motor shifting around if it is loose. Bolt it back in and secure the leads.

I've never heard of a starter motor "coming loose", or the starter motor bolts just dissappearing. Is there any chance that you had a clutch done within the last 12 months and these bolts were not properly tightened or the gearbox was removed within the same timeframe and the same thing happened???

The sparks you are seeing are caused by the 12V positive terminal on the starter motor coming into contact with the metal earth of the vehicle, this is a short circuit situation that would cause sparks until the positive terminal is isolated again. All things being equal, if you can find two starter motor bolts in a scrap yard or order same from a main dealer, and fit them (tightly), this should be the end of your woes.

I wouldn't go driving around until you get this sorted out, as you could damage wires if the starter motor comes out all the way and starts hanging from its wires.

cormie

Great info there, thanks a mill everyone.

I had an old bolt handy, it's not the right size, but it was good enough to put the start motor back where it should be temporarily while I tried the engine again. No grinding noise:) but that was all, nothing else! There was a small noise but I don't know where it came from. So I fiddled around with the starter motor again and tried again, just a clicking now, so fiddled and tried again, nothing really again, fiddled again, ticking noise etc etc.. so basically, each time I moved it around, I got a different sound when starting the engine.

This lead me to believe maybe something was loose so I checked the wires and the wire that's directly under the side of the yellow dipstick (the bit at the bottom) in the first pic, came out, it looks like it has one of them connections you see at the end of the wires for a car stereo. When this was out, I didn't really get any sound from the engine, I put it arseways back in (as I couldn't see what I was doing) and got a small noise, but still no sign of the engine starting!

Darragh, funny you should ask, I got a new clutch about 2 months ago. Do you think the mechanic forgot to bolt the starter back in place? Is this his mess?

I did have a battery problem before I brought it to him, it wouldn't start one day, but later that day I tried it and it started no problem. I think that was the only time the battery gave trouble before I brought it to him. It would have been left idle for a good few days before I tried to start it this time though.

Does anyone have any idea how much I should be charged for this to be fixed and how long it should take a mechanic?

Thanks again for all the help:)

Darragh29

cormie wrote:

Darragh, funny you should ask, I got a new clutch about 2 months ago. Do you think the mechanic forgot to bolt the starter back in place? Is this his mess?

Absolutely! This is certainly what has caused your problem here. I've never heard once of these bolts coming loose by themselves, these bolts are fitted extremely extremely tight, they don't "come loose". You have to swing out of them and use every bit of muscle you have just to start removing them.

What I'd do is the following:

(1) Get the mechanic who fitted your clutch to finish the job and refit your starter motor properly. (The starter motor has to be removed to get at the old clutch and remove it and it is obvious that it was not refitted properly). If he's worth his salt, he'll realise that this was an oversight on his part and will take responsibility for it.

(2) If you're dealing with a spanner (pardon the pun!), I'd abandon the approach you've come up with, (using the similar sized bolt you found). What I'd do as a priority is make sure the starter motor is fully secured to the bell housing as it should be, (part of the gearbox where the starter motor is attached to). I'd get the proper bolts from a main dealer. If you are not using bolts of the correct diameter, then the starter gear is not properly meshing with the ring gear on the flywheel. All you'd need is a reg number and you should get the parts for less than 10 Euro. This will ensure that before you go at getting your starter motor wiring/connection problem sorted out, that the starter motor is exactly where it should be and that the starter motor gear is fully engaged with the gear ring on the flywheel. Also, I'd make sure the battery is fully charged, as it could have become discharged if you had a prolonged short circuit due to the starter motor floating around and the positive terminal coming into prolonged contact with an earth point.

When this is done, I'd check all the connections to the starter motor, but don't do this until you are 100% sure that the starter motor is properly bolted to the bell housing.

Let me know how you get on...

cormie

Hmm, I just got that video off my brother:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw4aVpMVxKw

Just looking at it now, it looks like them sparks were possible coming from the grinding and not the actual cable

Darragh29

I've looked at the video and what is happening here is the electrial connection to the starter motor where the sparks are coming from is not connected tightly to the starter motor terminal itself, (it looks like your mechanic who fitted the clutch also forget to tighten the connections to the starter motor).

If you try to swivel that connection on the starter motor electrical terminal, I think you will find that it will swivel (because it is loose). If you are going to tighten it, be EXTREMELY careful, as if you put a spanner onto the terminal nut to tighten it, and if the end of the spanner touches off the steel body of the car, you could cause the battery to explode.

Further to my last mail, given the number of problems you now are having, I'd have the car towed back to your mechanic who fitted the clutch and get him to check the whole car again in respect of the work he has done while attending to your clutch, in case there are any other bolts he forgot to refit/tighten.

Word of advice, just for safety purposes, I'd disconnect the earth terminal on the battery before attempting to tighten the live terminal going to the starter motor, (exactly where the sparks are coming from in your video). I'd put 50 Euro on with you that this is loose.

Mr.Diagnostic

Hi Cormie,

I know that we all like a bargain but when it comes to a work vehicle the cheapest option is not always the best. If i remember correctly you went to a lot of trouble to find the cheapest garage to fit your clutch.

In your pic it looks like an earth lead that is sparking. If that is the case it could explain the problems you have been having with the battery. Also a bad earth lead can be a serious fire risk so you would be better not starting it until that is sorted.

cormie

Thanks again for all the great info everyone!

Sounds a bit risky for me to be trying to sort myself for sure anyway...

Darragh, I noticed in the thread about mechanics, you stated you're a mechanic yourself. Have you any idea what this should cost to get sorted out and do you reckon the guy who fitted the clutch should do it for free?

See it's a catch 22 (is that the saying?) situation, I could go and bring it to him, he's in Kilcoole, about 15 miles away and I'd probably have to end up renting the van if that was the case which means I'm down E72, or I could get a mechanic in Dun Loaghaire to fix it up first thing in the morning if I'm lucky. There's also the chance the original mechanic will charge for it.

Do you reckon this job will need to be done at a garage or could any competent mechanic sort this out on the spot? Fancy that 50 quid straight up Darragh if you can do it?

crosstownk

Others may have said this - I only glanced thru the other posts.

Your starter is not mounted securely. The live to the solenoid is touching an earth and causing your battery to drain (massive short circuit = serious heat). I'm not trying to be alarmist, but there is a serious risk of fire here. Get this sorted ASAP. If this vehicle came into my garage I would render it unsafe to drive until it's sorted. Period.

This loose connection has most likely rendered your battery fúcked. It could also destroy other sensitive control units. It may cost a few euro to fix, but if left as it is it could cost a whole lot more - personal injury included. If you do not know how to address this problem yourself then either put the van on blocks or get a professional to sort it.

PS - There is no way my band will use your van to carry our rig with that sort of fire risk

Darragh29

cormie wrote:

Thanks again for all the great info everyone!

Sounds a bit risky for me to be trying to sort myself for sure anyway...

Darragh, I noticed in the thread about mechanics, you stated you're a mechanic yourself. Have you any idea what this should cost to get sorted out and do you reckon the guy who fitted the clutch should do it for free?

See it's a catch 22 (is that the saying?) situation, I could go and bring it to him, he's in Kilcoole, about 15 miles away and I'd probably have to end up renting the van if that was the case which means I'm down E72, or I could get a mechanic in Dun Loaghaire to fix it up first thing in the morning if I'm lucky. There's also the chance the original mechanic will charge for it.

Do you reckon this job will need to be done at a garage or could any competent mechanic sort this out on the spot? Fancy that 50 quid straight up Darragh if you can do it?

Hi Cormie,

Well, on the matter of costs, this shouldn't cost you a cent because someone has fu*ked up here and they should be prepared to stand over their work. I understand that this is your work vehicle, so the option of bringing it back to the mechanic who did the clutch and saying to him, "Look, I'm not taking this back until you fix A,B, and C and check X, Y, Z, is probably not an option for you. The very least I'd do is call him and tell him that you've sought a second opinion and you have been told that the reason your starter motor is hanging off is because it wasn't properly refitted when the clutch was done two months ago and take it from there.

If you can't get this guy to take responsibility for the work he did, and you have to go to another mechanic, you should not be charged more than an hours labour for refitting two new starter motor bolts and checking the electrical connections to the starter motor. You might have a problem here because most mechanics will run a mile from problems that arise with work done by another mechanic/garage. This is only because say for example you come to me and ask me to "fully check the clutch replacement done by your mechanic". I could quickly check that all bolts are tight and that on the face of it, nothing is going to fall off the car when you are driving down the road. But say in 6 months time your clutch fails and it turns out that the original mechanic never replaced the concentric slave cylinder, (which I would have to remove the gearbox to check and you're getting into the cost of another clutch replacement at this stage), and its now leaking hydraulic clutch fluid. The blame for this would be with your original mechanic, however you would probably think that as you had all the work checked by another mechanic, that it would be this second mechanic who is now to blame.

What I'd do is first thing in the morning, call down to the nearest main dealer and order two starter motor bolts, (I know you probably only need one but they are cheap parts and I'd get two just to be sure that after fitting both bolts, the starter motor is exactly where it should be). If you order early in the morning, you might have the parts by lunchtime. I'm in the middle of opening a new outlet in Co. Louth and my tools are in my garage up there at the moment, so I might not be able to get you out of trouble here, but in any event, I'd order the parts and put it to your previous mechanic that he has a job to finish...

Darragh29

cormie wrote:

Do you reckon this job will need to be done at a garage or could any competent mechanic sort this out on the spot?

A 1st year apprentice could sort this out for you. I'd agree with the poster above who says there is a risk of fire here. I'd disconnect the battery earth strap here to prevent any further electrical problems, and I'd leave it disconnected until the starter motor is properly attached to the bell housing and all connections to the starter motor are present, clean & tight.

crosstownk

And another point - you may well destroy either the starter pinion gear and/or the the flywheel ring gear as the starter pinion is not correctly engaging with the ring gear. More unnecesary cost by not getting the problem attended to promptly. If you depend on this van for an income the lesser of two evils is to get it sorted now before it costs a whole lot more.

cormie

Thanks again:)

Crosstownk, what do you mean by putting it on blocks?

I think I'll have to get a professional (i.e. mechanic, that's what you meant, right? ) to sort it because I don't want to risk anything here and if it's only an hours labour like Darragh has said, that's not going to cost too much, I hope... and hopefully the battery will still be usable after the rest is sorted, as I was about to spend €90 on a new one anyway.

I can't afford to do a full recheck of the clutch now but should be able to afford a new one in 6 months if the original job wasn't done properly, so that's a gamble I have to take. Let's just hope the loose starter is the only problem.

There's one main dealer in Dun Laoghaire, the closest after that is a good bit away, but there's also a scrapyard, are they special bolts or would any do the job as long as they are screwing in on the thread properly?

Thanks again:)

crosstownk

cormie wrote:

Crosstownk, what do you mean by putting it on blocks?

Taking it off the road - unsafe to drive.

cormie

A 1st year apprentice could sort it? That's great news. So you reckon if I can find a mechanic to come to me, that there would be no need to worry about getting it towed to a garage as it should be able to be sorted at the side of the road?

Darragh29

cormie wrote:

A 1st year apprentice could sort it? That's great news. So you reckon if I can find a mechanic to come to me, that there would be no need to worry about getting it towed to a garage as it should be able to be sorted at the side of the road?

You're talking about 2 bolts here and a quick check of the electrical connections to the starter motor. This will get the van mobile. As for what else could be loose/hanging off/not bolted back on properly, I'd definitely bring it back to him ASAP, and get him to check it all again. I'd go back to him first of all before getting someone else involved and tell him what's happened. He's in no position to help you if he doesn't know there is a problem. If you go to another mechanic and then bring the van back to the original mechanic, he'll just say, "why didn't you come back to me first if you've a problem with my work???", so go to him first and give him the opportunity to put it right. Did you not get a written parts & labour guarantee/warranty with the clutch???

cormie

I didn't get anything with the clutch, just a written receipt on a small piece of paper:o

Ok, so considering the original mechanic will most probably not come out to me, you think the best option is to get it fixed tomorrow by somebody local and then go back to the original mechanic to get him to give it a thorough check?

I'd really prefer to get this going tomorrow morning instead of having to rent a van and have to pay to get this done anyway too.

Gary ITR

Get on to the garage where the clutch was done first thing in the morning. Try get him to the point where he'll admit to his shoddy work and after that inform him that he'll be receiving a bill for van rental.

Next time don't bring the van to the cheapest garage you find, try and find one who's work you can trust:o

cormie

The guy who fitted it was actually recommended (after I found him myself) by my bro in law and his dad who together have been using him for about 20 years! He did seem like a genuine guy. Maybe he just overlooked this one thing...

That's what I'm hoping anyway as I would like to feel secure in knowing I can bring it to him again and get a good job done at a good price.


Just something I'm confused about, if the starter only fell out of place on my last journey (the grinding etc never occured before my last journey), how come I had battery problems before it fell out of place if it's the missing bolt causing the battery problems? Assuming it only fell out on my last journey

Darragh29

cormie wrote:

I didn't get anything with the clutch, just a written receipt on a small piece of paper:o

Mother of Jasus...!

cormie wrote:

Ok, so considering the original mechanic will most probably not come out to me, you think the best option is to get it fixed tomorrow by somebody local and then go back to the original mechanic to get him to give it a thorough check?

You have to give this guy the opportunity to fix this problem. If I was in your shoes, I'd call out to this guy in person tomorrow and explain what's happened and put him under so much pressure that he puts you at the top of his list of things to do.

The fact that its a work van and this is your bread and butter should make him treat this as prioroty number 1. Remember he should want to keep you as a customer. Every garage at some stage will have a customer come back with a problem, it happens me sometimes, its the nature of garage work, even though we go to strange lengths to eliminate or reduce instances of this in our business, but in the vast vast majority of cases, customers who return with a problem are completely reasonable and understanding, once you convince them that you are going to take the matter in hand immediately and get it sorted out IMMEDIATELY.

It's when the customer loses faith in your ability to resolve the problem, because you won't give it the priority it deserves, that the customer becomes unreasonable and difficult to deal with. In my opinion, its a hundred times easier to deal with a reasonable customer with a genuine complaint immediately, than to deal with an unreasonable customer who has steam coming out their ears because I've not dealt with their problem as they expected or within an acceptable timeframe. This is never more true than a customer with a work van.

I think you should be firm but polite with this guy, call in person, tell him you're new in business, you trusted him to replace your clutch but now your starter motor is falling out of the van and you know he had to have removed it to do the clutch job, and there was no problem with your starter motor before he went at your clutch. Tell him you've made some enquiries as to how this could happen and you are satisfied now that it could only have happened by him failing to properly secure the starter motor when he refitted it. Ask him can he treat this as a priority and get you back in business and that he has a clutch job to finish. I'd make it clear that I'm not paying any more money for this, you've already paid for it!

Darragh29

cormie wrote:

The guy who fitted it was actually recommended (after I found him myself) by my bro in law and his dad who together have been using him for about 20 years! He did seem like a genuine guy. Maybe he just overlooked this one thing...

Well there you go, tell him he was actually recommended to do the job right for a good price and now 2 months later you are off the road and out of pocket based on the decision to do business with him. Tell him if he doesn't sort it out, he'll be losing you, your bro in law and your Dad as customers. If he's even slightly reasonable, he'll be down with you first thing in the morning, sure he woudln't even need to leave his office, just point him to this thread, any hesitation in fixing your problem should end there! ;-)

cormie

Thanks again for your advice.

That would be ideal if I could get him to do it but as I said, he's 15 miles away and I'd have no way of getting the van to him, I don't know anyone who could tow it and I myself have no way of calling in to him in person and I can't afford that time if I want this sorted tomorrow instead of renting a van.

I suppose the only thing I can do is ring him first thing in the morning and explain the above and say I need it today or I'll have to rent a van and see if there's any chance he could come out to me! Highly unlikely he would though!

Darragh29

cormie wrote:

Thanks again for your advice.

That would be ideal if I could get him to do it but as I said, he's 15 miles away and I'd have no way of getting the van to him

Its up to him to come to the van, not the other way around, the van could be driven to him if he finished the clutch job, which isn't the case here yet! He hasn't finished the job he started 2 months ago, so its up to him to come to the van and put it back together again! I know it must seem like you are putting a burden on him, but I think you won't get this sorted out without further inconvience and expense to yourself unless you put this problem firmly back in his court.

If it helps, put your problem down on paper, walk up to him, have a quick conversation with him and leave him with your written complaint, outlining what your problem is and what your expectations are. This alone should make him take it more seriously. Word it in such a way that if he sorts out the problem now, you will be happy to treat it as a genuine error on his part and you will leave it at that, but if he fails to deal with this immediately, you will be forced to hire a van, and also another mechanic who you will have to pay and he will be getting a bill for this and that you reserve the right to have your solicitor recover from him any further expenses, if he fails to act now.

cormie

Ok cool, I'll see what happens in the morning anyway.

Have you any idea why I could have been having battery trouble before I brought it to him though? As I said, I didn't really use it before I brought it to him, maybe two journeys in 2 months, but the way it wasn't starting was one of the things I forgot to mention to him when I brought it to him. Do you reckon this is just a result of general non-use of the van and the real battery problems only happened after he had done the clutch?

Esel

Sorry Cormie, I know it's not helpful, but I have to say this. How can you read this:

Darragh29 wrote:

I'd go back to him first of all before getting someone else involved and tell him what's happened. He's in no position to help you if he doesn't know there is a problem. If you go to another mechanic and then bring the van back to the original mechanic, he'll just say, "why didn't you come back to me first if you've a problem with my work???", so go to him first and give him the opportunity to put it right.

and reply with this:

cormie wrote:

Ok, so considering the original mechanic will most probably not come out to me, you think the best option is to get it fixed tomorrow by somebody local and then go back to the original mechanic to get him to give it a thorough check?

You have three choices now:

1. Ring the original mechanic as early as possible and explain your problem, including the major fact that you cannot work and are letting customers down. You expect him to come right away to sort it. He is 15 miles away. You are in a rural area (if I remember correctly) so this should not take him long to drive. Be polite but insistent. Best option by far. If this is not possible, go to 2.

2. Get someone else knowledgeable (mechanic or apprentice) who can come right away to re-attach the starter motor properly. Remember that your van might not start after this if the battery is knackered. Go to 3.

3. Eat the extra cost, rent a van. IMO (but I am just a punter) the original mechanic, if he cannot (or is not prepared to) come immediately, should be liable for the cost of this rental. He should also be responsible for getting your van back on the road, either by coming to you or having the van towed to his workshop.

Do not, under any circumstances, try to do any further work on this yourself. I say this based on your level of knowledge and apparent difficulty in understanding some basic straightforward posts here, and based on the explicit warnings you have received from experts here on the dangers involved.

People on this thread (and the other threads) have given you very good advice so far.

I wish you the best of luck getting this sorted, and hope it all works out for you. Let us know how you get on.