Return of the English disease?

Mr. Presentable

Maybe this should be in Politics, but, given recent events involving English clubs in Europe, is it time Uefa took action and forced the English to clean up their act?

mike65

Har har, better would be for the continantal coppers to be sent to England to learn how to police a game.

Mike.

Livvie

I don't know about UEFA. It's time the English Government did something positive about all anti social behaviour. Law enforcement here is a joke.

There are other countries with football hooligans as bad as the English though - the Italians have real hard core hooligans, and so do other countries in Europe.

UEFA is not an organisation that is seen to be particularly efficient or fair unfortunately.

KdjaCL

oh ultimate troll!!! or..........................

2 sides really one is the preconceived notion that attaches to "english football fan" other is heavy handed policing.

English fans earned the right to be known as scum but recklessone was at the spurs game tonight afaik hes not a self proclaiming neo nazi part of the YIDs.

All 3 games this week showed that european police cant handle away fans, and if theres any sign of dissent its a baton charge.

Fans can be controlled in stadiums as the premier league shows week in week out, clashes outside the stadium as Bohs and Rovers fans will agree with are nothing to do with the clubs so therefore just mindless thuggery.
There was reports of violence by alll english clubs fans outside all grounds this week in europe.

maybe the police feel that the only way to highlight this is in the stadiums with a baton charge.


On a footballing note the 5 year ban imposed on english clubs caused the clubs too fall years behind their counterparts now that after 15 years they catching up and catching up well.

kdjac

event

what do you mean return?

do you think it went away?

Livvie

What's sad is that these thugs are a minority. But a minority of people being violent will always cause more problems than a majority who are basically decent human beings.

I'm not convinced that there aren't some who deliberately attach themselves to football supporters in order to cause trouble, especially at internationals - racists for example, or just idiots who want to fight.

But a lot of them are just unintelligent scum who are disgrace to the club they support as well as to their country.

I'd give them at least five years inside if convicted.

thebaz

nice troll -- those poor innocent Italians , are as well behaved as the Irish fans -- good one though

GuanYin

I don't think the issue is an "english disease". Italians have a nortiously bad record with crowd control.

Roma in particular havea very sordid history and as KdjacL pointed out, the European police seem to go bezerker on fans when trouble starts.

I'll assume this isn't a big troll - so lets keep the anti-english sentiments and abuse out of the thread please.

KdjaCL

If it was a troll and the OP is irish is it not enough that its evident in most Dublin based games that crowd control is a problem and that scum will meet wherever to fight if thats what they get out of their clubs.

Tbh pain in my hole hearing how good PL is over EL (rightly so tbh a billion can make a team tv good) but for someone to try and say English fans are scum etc: it pretty much levels the playing field as in the EL the same problem exists so any abuse towards PL clubs couldbe levied to any El club.

Hooliganism is a problem that affects ALL clubs everywhere.

kdjac

leninbenjamin

its a catch 22 i think. the english fans still have a bad reputation, the respective police forces get jittery so they start to make their presence felt which sours the atmosphere and antagonises the fans, who react and then leads to the sh*t we see. Also clubs have to make a greater effort to make sure their fans don't react (or drink too much). Utds claim that their fans are innocent victims does not help the situation at all.

there needs to be a hugely increased level of co-operation between the national forces on this issue. Police and stewards from the clubs should travel with the fans, and act as an intermediary between local authorities and the travelling contingent.

and there is also the side issue in Italy to do with the fact most of the stadiums are municipally owned (right word?) and therefore policing is largely outside the clubs jurisdiction (at least that's what i read somewhere in the build up to Roma vs. Utd match. So even if UEFA were to introduce guidelines or regulations as regards policing they can't be enforced as it contravenes local law.

Until all the clubs and forces get their s**t together, i think English fans should be prevented from traveling in the near future, for their own safety. If Utd feared so much for the safety of their fans in Rome they would have stopped them from traveling for their own protection.

thebaz

KdjaCL wrote:

Hooliganism is a problem that affects ALL clubs everywhere.

kdjac

i take your point, and agree , but as an aside , i've never seen any trouble at bellfield or away with ireland ... p.s i know ucd is unique , but i've never witnessed any organised hooliganism away with ireland.

KdjaCL

leninbenjamin wrote:

Until all the clubs and forces get their s**t together, i think English fans should be prevented from traveling in the near future, for their own safety. If Utd feared so much for the safety of their fans in Rome they would have stopped them from traveling for their own protection.

Arse .... (not you your point ) im going to whatever game Pats get in UEFA and i should be afforded the same safety that any fan shoud be gauranteed at any game in Europe ever. I am buying a ticket!!!!!

Saying fans shouldnt travel is complete balls every club has a responsibility for fans safety, but outside of UK and Eire this disappears and turns into a right to beat fans senseless regardless of reason.

i have been to some funky countries with pats and on a small scale have felt safe in Moldova Belgium and Croatia and Slovakia.

But i know if i was an english fan at any of those games we would ahve been treated differently.

kdjac

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

jesus_thats_gre

mike65 wrote:

Har har, better would be for the continantal coppers to be sent to England to learn how to police a game.

Mike.

Agreed.. As much as I like to see thugs getting the **** kicked out of the by coppers, the way the United supporters were treated midweek was a disgrace.

Mr. Presentable

The point is, there's trouble at games all the time, but to blame continental police for being unable to manage crowd trouble when there's a common denominator is ill found. They have different experiences and exposures.

I think there's an underlying problem in football that appeared to have been addressed until recently by the English FA for their part, but, which has been observed may simply have been "brushed under the carpet". In recent situations where there have been English clubs involved in trouble, have these been known or proscribed hooligans, or are they new ones?

Sadly, it does happen in Ireland too, Shamrock Rovers, anyone?

But, it looks grim, and no amount of blaming the Italians can mask the fact that in three high profile games recently there were English clubs involved in disturbance with, significantly, clubs from three different countries. Or maybe it really is all "johnny foreigner"s fault.

Call me "troll" if you will, but I hope to engender discussion, not mere siege mentality name calling. This is, for what it's worth, *our* game, and the hooligans - whoever's flag they fly - should not be allowed take it from us.

leninbenjamin

KdjaCL wrote:

But i know if i was an english fan at any of those games we would ahve been treated differently.

kdjac

i forgot to mention another reason for it. English fans spend ****loads when traveling abroad (particularly in pubs ). but seriously, if the clubs stopped their clubs traveling, the economic loss itself might be enough to spur the continentals to get their act together policing wise... i.e. hit them where it hurts most, their pockets.

KdjaCL

nipplenuts wrote:

Call me "troll" if you will, but I hope to engender discussion, not mere siege mentality name calling. This is, for what it's worth, *our* game, and the hooligans - whoever's flag they fly - should not be allowed take it from us.

i agree you have a very worthwhie point.....but posting on an irish messageboard about english clubs is sure to antaganoise a lot of irish people.

that shouldnt make sense but it does


kdjac

leninbenjamin

nipplenuts wrote:

But, it looks grim, and no amount of blaming the Italians can mask the fact that in three high profile games recently there were English clubs involved in disturbance with, significantly, clubs from three different countries. Or maybe it really is all "johnny foreigner"s fault.

i see your point, but if that's the case, surely we'd see the same scenes or worse when the continental clubs arrive in Britain? i don't think those would be incidents that could be just swept under the carpet...

KdjaCL

leninbenjamin wrote:

i see your point, but if that's the case, surely we'd see the same scenes or worse when the continental clubs arrive in Britain? i don't think those would be incidents that could be just swept under the carpet...

it wouldnt happen they would be pretty much escorted to and from flights and policed very well.
as proved at every other game ever in europe between english clubs.

kdjac

Mr. Presentable

KdjaCL wrote:

i agree you have a very worthwhie point.....but posting on an irish messageboard about english clubs is sure to antaganoise a lot of irish people.

that shouldnt make sense but it does


kdjac

With all due respect Kdjac (if that is your real name) almost all of the discussion of football on this Irish messageboard is in respect of English clubs. Should the soccer forum then be gagged to avoid antagonising Irish people ?

KdjaCL

nipplenuts wrote:

With all due respect Kdjac (if that is your real name) almost all of the discussion of football on this Irish messageboard is in respect of English clubs. Should the soccer forum then be gagged to avoid antagonising Irish people ?

No its not shockinlgy!!!

You posted a topic which basically says either english fans away are scum or not. Your original post doesnt contain an opinion or a fact all it does is allude to the fact English fans away are scum....

You post this on an irish messageboard therefore expecting a response to either verify of vilify yourself knowing the nature that ost irish football fans are english football fans.

As you said "Maybe this should be in Politics "


kdjac

Zebra3

KdjaCL wrote:

Saying fans shouldnt travel is complete balls every club has a responsibility for fans safety, but outside of UK and Eire this disappears and turns into a right to beat fans senseless regardless of reason.

No, it doesn't. :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Convenient how the fans are English when there is trouble, but I wonder how many Irish supporters were at the Man U game?

gimmick

This isnt a troll here, but why is it every time an English club are away, there is trouble? And its never their fault?

FFS, watching the various news bulletins last night and the poor man U fans were being interviewed about how they were caught up by the polices over zealous actions. My question is - why the christ were they rushing towards the persepex galss in the first place. If they didnt want trouble they would have ignored the Romas fans taunts. Simple as that. And dont give me any of this heat of the moment poppycock.

_blank_

Agreed.

I have been at games when opposing fans have approached the stand I was in, where there was no perspex, and started throwing bags of coins, full bottles and other paraphenalia such as gold balls (nice typo, Gold Balls I wish, it was meant to be golf balls, of course), and I never felt the need to charge at them. Oh, sorry, the hoolie element is alive and well in Ireland, but it sure doesn't exist when English fans are involved, no way José.

I have taunted others and been taunted by others, it's par for the course at a football match tbh, jesus, I'm sure most of you taunt each other in the pub ffs when watching football.

For the United fans to react the way they did was infantile and moronic. What did they expect when they saw the Roman Batallion just itching for an excuse?

Fratton Fred

But it's being called the "English Disease", people are itching to blame the English when, from what I saw of the Man U game, the Roma fans were just as mch to blame, the only difference being that the Police were on the United side of the barrier so were only in a position to beat the united fans.

Yes, English fans have a deservedly bad reputation, but take the blinkers off for a second and realise that there are a lot of fans out there who are as bad if not worse, jesus, they murdered a copper at a game in Italy a few weeks ago. Last year, three Boro fans were stabbed and look at the trouble at Milan games.

Maybe the English media are too quick to defend England fans, but maybe a lot of people are too quick to blame them as well.

jank

Wouldn't it be easier for the English fans to behave like everyone else rather than having to train people specifically to deal with them?

FFS, watching the various news bulletins last night and the poor man U fans were being interviewed about how they were caught up by the polices over zealous actions. My question is - why the christ were they rushing towards the persepex galss in the first place. If they didnt want trouble they would have ignored the Romas fans taunts. Simple as that. And dont give me any of this heat of the moment poppycock.

Ah some sense at last....

Its true that the forgien police should handle things differently sometime but the fact is that a fan is in a different country with different rules and customs. FFS I saw a picture of spurs fans ripping up seats and then throwing them into the police ranks, yet they are the victims. A bit of overall perspective please

Saying fans shouldnt travel is complete balls every club has a responsibility for fans safety, but outside of UK and Eire this disappears and turns into a right to beat fans senseless regardless of reason.

Did you see the world cup in germany??:rolleyes:

Oh and before I go, there is a lot more trouble outside english grounds then reported by the main stream press. If its not in the ground then its not worth reporting it seems......

jank

But it's being called the "English Disease", people are itching to blame the English when, from what I saw of the Man U game, the Roma fans were just as mch to blame, the only difference being that the Police were on the United side of the barrier so were only in a position to beat the united fans.

Well im sure the police wanted to take on 4000 United fans rather then 75000 roma fans!!

Here is another point after the inital baton charge there was no more trouble in the ground. Is that correct. If so then the police could consider it a job well done, if not a bit heavy handed What if the 2 sets of fans clashed? We could be talking deaths here but nobody seems to think about that. Blame the police instead its easier.

Everybody knew there would be trouble at that game even the club yet when it happened we are all surprised by it!?

PHB

Well let's look at the English fans, and let's ask, is there ever any trouble in the premiership?
Then let's look at the Italian fans, is there every any trouble in Serie A?

Even if we ignore the stadium trouble, about 10 United fans were stabbed by Roma Ultras, can you blame that on United fans? What about the Liverpool fans, or the Boro fans, was it their fault they got stabbed? No, it was quite clearly the Roma Ultras.

I'm not saying that United fans/Spurs fans aren't at fault, but of the fans least at fault, I think its them.

Roma fans threw coins, United fans responded, Roma fans responded. Aside from the fact that Roma started it, which they did, the fans of each club acted in the same way after that point.
Now heres, the question, why did the police respond one way to Roma fans and another way to United fans?
Why, if it was enough to wade into the crowd to stop the trouble for Roma fans, wasn't it enough to do the same?
There is no anwser to this, except that the police treated the English fans differently, for no real reason.
And by the way, once the police started beating the crap out of everbody, the United fans responded to get rid of them any way they can, which included throwing anything they should at them. If a group of people, who seemed hellbent on beating the crap out of you and your friends, was doing the same, I'm pretty sure you'd do the same.

The problem here is with the police. Sure the charging etc was a problem, but not a huge one, and could easily have been stopped. But instead, the police responded with brutality, which only escalated the situation.

I remember being at the United AC Milan game a while ago, and on the airport back, the police were literally beating the entire crowd into a line, if you even, for a second, stopped walking towards the plane, you'd get a police officier shoving you towards it.

There are problems on both sides, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the police, and the police failed dramatically.

jank

There is no anwser to this, except that the police treated the English fans differently, for no real reason.

As I said its easier to control 4000 untied fans then 75000 roma fans.
What would you do?

There are problems on both sides, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the police, and the police failed dramatically.

Its very easy to blame the police in all these situtation. As i said deaths could have occured if the fans mixed in the stadium.

The ultimate responsibility lies with both sets of fans behaving themselves.Isnt that obvious. :rolleyes:

The police can only deal with situations that occur in front of them. If the fans misbehave then they have to react. If they react over the top then its another discussion but to say that its ALL the polices fault is a whitewash skynews style

PHB

As I said its easier to control 4000 untied fans then 75000 roma fans.
What would you do?

That's just crap. If its easier to control United fans, why did they need to beat the **** out of them to do it.
Roma fans were doing the exact same, and they were controlled by the police simply wading into the crowd.
So if you can control the 75000 Roma fans with wading into the crowd, why can't you control the 4000 United fans by the same?

The police can only deal with situations that occur in front of them. If the fans misbehave then they have to react. If they react over the top then its another discussion but to say that its ALL the polices fault is a whitewash skynews style

No its not. There are problems with this at so many English matches, fans getting in fights with each other, big fan trouble, it's just dealt with properly.
Ultimately, all football fans well react in a similar fashion. If another set of fans are throwing coins at you, you are going to respond. It's mob mentality, and its simple really, it's what will happen.
The difference between Italy and say England, is that the English deal with the situation in order to stop the problem and get back to the game. The Italians escalate the problem

event

gimmick wrote:

This isnt a troll here, but why is it every time an English club are away, there is trouble? And its never their fault?

every time?

really?

here was me think it was just the last few games, but its actually been every game

jank

PHB wrote:

That's just crap. If its easier to control United fans, why did they need to beat the **** out of them to do it.
Roma fans were doing the exact same, and they were controlled by the police simply wading into the crowd.
So if you can control the 75000 Roma fans with wading into the crowd, why can't you control the 4000 United fans by the same?

I didnt hear any reports where the police wadded into the roma fans. But I might be wrong.

Its not the same because they are the visiting team, therefore from the polices perspective they are more of a threat to the security of the game.
Of course police are supposed to be neutral in these aspects but it rarely happens if at all. The police were more then likely native Romans and yea they probably did go over the top but to say that its all their fault is a white wash

PHB wrote:

No its not. There are problems with this at so many English matches, fans getting in fights with each other, big fan trouble, it's just dealt with properly.
Ultimately, all football fans well react in a similar fashion. If another set of fans are throwing coins at you, you are going to respond. It's mob mentality, and its simple really, it's what will happen.
The difference between Italy and say England, is that the English deal with the situation in order to stop the problem and get back to the game. The Italians escalate the problem

Its dealt with inside the ground but you rarely hear in the press because its going on outside the ground therefore not of interest and more importantly not live on TV. All the clubs want this hidden because of the way football is now a global export.

Manchester United football club probably care more about its image abroad in China and the US and what damage these "scenes" did to that previously believed clean cut image, then the few united fans that ended up in hospital. Blaming the police is one way of dis-associating itself from the riot.


And just to make a point that proves all this. We are talking about police over reaction in the match while as you said some united fans got stabbed outside the ground. That IMO are much more serious incidents then the batton charge inside the ground but because they happened live on TV it gets all the attention as this thread proves.

Fratton Fred

jank wrote:

Its not the same because they are the visiting team, therefore from the polices perspective they are more of a threat to the security of the game.

Despite the fact that away fans have been stabbed by Roma fans previously:rolleyes:

jank wrote:

We are talking about police over reaction in the match while as you said some united fans got stabbed outside the ground.

despite the fact that this had already happened, the Police chose to line themselves up on the United barrier?

jank

Fratton Fred wrote:

Despite the fact that away fans have been stabbed by Roma fans previously:rolleyes:

But were they stabbed in the stadium? eh No!

Fratton Fred wrote:

despite the fact that this had already happened, the Police chose to line themselves up on the United barrier?

Im sure this is common practice in all matches both in Italy and Europe. As I said 3 times already. Its easier to police 4000 fans then 75000.

Anyway the police lined themselves up on the united side of the fence AFTER they charged the roma fans. Stewards were on both sides but were swept away. The police reacted...they decided to contain the united fans.
The rest is history.

Mr. Presentable

PHB wrote:

Now heres, the question, why did the police respond one way to Roma fans and another way to United fans?

Probably because there was an empty section between the fans which the visitor rushed across, through whatever stewards were the, while the Roma fans were still basically contained.

You have to get over the fact that they were man utd fans and see the fuller picture. Don't tell me there's no trouble at EPL games either, that's just not true. Nobody is arguing that things are OK in Serie A either, but what your blinkers are causing you to miss is the fact that last nights game wasn't in Italy, nor was the game a couple of weeks back in France. There *is* a common denominator, like it or not.

adox

PHB wrote:

Well let's look at the English fans, and let's ask, is there ever any trouble in the premiership?
Then let's look at the Italian fans, is there every any trouble in Serie A?

Even if we ignore the stadium trouble, about 10 United fans were stabbed by Roma Ultras, can you blame that on United fans? What about the Liverpool fans, or the Boro fans, was it their fault they got stabbed? No, it was quite clearly the Roma Ultras.

I'm not saying that United fans/Spurs fans aren't at fault, but of the fans least at fault, I think its them.

Roma fans threw coins, United fans responded, Roma fans responded. Aside from the fact that Roma started it, which they did, the fans of each club acted in the same way after that point.
Now heres, the question, why did the police respond one way to Roma fans and another way to United fans?
Why, if it was enough to wade into the crowd to stop the trouble for Roma fans, wasn't it enough to do the same?
There is no anwser to this, except that the police treated the English fans differently, for no real reason.
And by the way, once the police started beating the crap out of everbody, the United fans responded to get rid of them any way they can, which included throwing anything they should at them. If a group of people, who seemed hellbent on beating the crap out of you and your friends, was doing the same, I'm pretty sure you'd do the same.

The problem here is with the police. Sure the charging etc was a problem, but not a huge one, and could easily have been stopped. But instead, the police responded with brutality, which only escalated the situation.

I remember being at the United AC Milan game a while ago, and on the airport back, the police were literally beating the entire crowd into a line, if you even, for a second, stopped walking towards the plane, you'd get a police officier shoving you towards it.

There are problems on both sides, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the police, and the police failed dramatically.

He speaks the truth.The rest of you are just blowing hot air.

cson

I've posted this already on a different topic but a lot of people seem to be forgetting the current climate in Italy regarding football.

Aside from the match fixing scandal of last year and all that, football in Italy is going through a crisis period with fans. Hooliganism is endemic in the country. After a policeman was killed and the league shut down for two weeks, (remember the San Siro nearly didn't get to host the Celtic CL match) the football climate over there is tense to say the least.

Now look at it logically, as jank said it is easier to control 4000 fans than 75000. Also while in a perfect world the police would be impartial, it's a lot easier for them to wade into the foreign United fans rather than their own countrymen, I'll bet as well that the press in Italy applauded the police for their actions. The rep that english fans have in general for this kind of behaviour (whether it is deserved or not) doesn't help the situation either. The fact that there was crowd trouble in Lille as well ties into that.

I take PHBs point about the Roma fans starting it, but I think the police were correct, if overly excessive, in their course of action. It probably prevented something worse happening in the stadium. Outside the stadium though is a different matter.

Mr. Presentable

PHB wrote:

about 10 United fans were stabbed by Roma Ultras,

I suppose this depends on where you get your information and on what you want to believe.

Two United fans were stabbed.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_5602232?nclick_check=1

redspider

I think the problems at Sevilla last night are going to throw more focus on the crowd trouble, and Uefa will have to act decisively.

I think that all of us have seen from many sets of fans across different countries, Ireland included (clubs), idiotic behaviour which is not from a core set but from many many 'near average' fans that number in the 1000's.

For example, we have all witnessed going to an away match, gone into a city centre, where the drinking continues/intensifies and the fans think they can mess around and get away with things that they wouldnt try in their own neighbourhood. This collective misbehaviour spreads like wildfire and consists of throwing bottles, spilling drinks, chastising barmaids, locals in the steet, etc, etc. You name it, you've seen it. Some people think its fun and they are acting the lark and 'only having a laugh'. Except this misbehaviour is not so innocent at all. It leads to vandalism of shops, train stations, trains, buses, etc, and against people. Its a crowd/mob mentality and there are FAR FAR TOO MANY people carrying it out. They come and act as if they own the place, its an 'invasion' of sorts. The locals, who are no better, react. And it can and does get out of control and leads to violence and riots, inside and outside the stadium.

Authorities and Police have a disdain for the fans because they are loud and can cause trouble wherever they go. Their approach is to show an iron hand first and ask questions later.

Accordingly, Away Fans aren't too enamoured either. They are at times treated like cattle, and at all times the division of 'us and them' is reinforced as fans are segregated, corralled and indeed hassled from plane to train/bus to stadium, etc.

Its all a bit of a mess if you ask me and has evolved over decades. To an extent a lot of the policies adopted by the authorities in the UK/England have mainly treated the symptoms of the trouble that can happen rather than getting at and solving the cause, although in the last 10 years or so the crowd profiles have changed for the better.

Overall, it's one reason why the Irish international team fans are 'loved' all over the world because we'd rather enjoy the locals and the cities, etc, with them, rather than go there and treat them with contempt and be up for trouble. Mind you, the worst is not expected from us so that helps keep things on a smooth path from the start.

In terms of UEFA, earlier this season they made an example of Feyenoord by throwing them out of the Uefa Cup completely:

Platini said: 'I am very happy with the decision of CAS to uphold the UEFA appeals body judgement. This sends out a strong message that acts of violence by fans within the game will be heavily dealt with and punished by the relevant authorities.'


Throwing out Feyenoord was a relatively 'easy decision' as it was early in the competition and they were unlikely to win it. Now the decisions are harder. I think Uefa cant throw out Man Utd or Roma. I think that both punishments will be equal and indeed should be. The problem Uefa have is that time is short and it is unlikely they will decide before the return leg, so one of the teams will be out.

One obvious and easy punishment is to ban away fans from Roma's and Man Utd's next matches in European competition, maybe a 6 months ban or 12 months (and of course the customary nominal fine). That will send some sort of message. It of course wont upset the hard core, and there are some I agree, but they are the tip of an iceberg, an iceberg which is quite large in my opinion and endemic in a lot society in various counties.

These away matches encourage the misbehaviour more than anything else.

As for the argument, Roma started it, that's a kindergarden response.

Just some thoughts ....

redspider

Fratton Fred

As someone pointed out to me once, all fans should realise that when you enter a football ground, you leave most of your civl liberties at the turnstyle:rolleyes:

Trizo

Irish fans are obviously angels :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHV5-Advmf0

im sick of hearing this nonsense that the United fans deserved what they got IF you looked at the film you would see that there were only a few fans who rushed the Perspex and the rest were just standing there the riot police beat EVERYONE indiscriminate the film of the one guy being beaten 10 or so times when he is on the ground is disgusting he was trying to crawl away FFS and the riot policeman was dragging him back to beat him some more that’s a F**ing disgrace i know if i saw that kind of carry on i would be mad as hell!!!

there were people going over asking for medical help and getting a baton in the face and yet the likes of nipplenuts thinks that’s just and an English disease!! get a grip...

People seem to forget that a policeman was killed in Italy recently becuase of Italian fans so all games for a while were played behind closed doors ...clearly if thats whats going on in Italy at the moment how anyone can turn around and say that it was all the Man Utd fans fault is beyond me. Games in the PL do not have this kind of crap happening Why ?

cson

Very well thought out post redspider. These sort of incidents are increasing in number, it's not just on the continent either. Remember that Spurs fan that tried to clock Frank Lampard one in the Chelsea-Spurs F.A. Cup match? Forgive me for being sensationalist but if he was carrying a knife?

In my opinion had the police not stepped in on Wednesday, the possibility was that the stewards scamper, both sets of fans could have knocked down the perspex division and then god only knows what could have happened.

_blank_

Trizo wrote:

Irish fans are obviously angels :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHV5-Advmf0

You've obviously missed the various threads where that ONE incident was discussed on this forum, in the Evening Herald three times and when the question of English fan violence is brought up someone always points to this ONE incident, that doesn't show any fan allegience, so it could be just two groups of random scummers, and didn't take place near any ground.

Whereas in the last week we have seen incidents involving English fans in the away section of various european cities' stadiums. The history of English fans violence, both at home and abroad is very well documented, if you'd bother to stop making idiotic assumptions based on a re-hashed video from a year and a half ago.

Yes, there are problems asscoiated with thugs at football in this country, I make no denial of that, indeed I have witnessed it, but to suggest that it is anywhere near the scale as we have seen, and continue to see, as the violence carried out by English thugs is a real head-up-the-arse attitude and smacks of small mindedness when it comes to all things LoI.

This attitude is propagated by publications such as the Evening Herald and other 'national' newspapers who ignore the pre- and post- game violence that happens in towns and cities all over the UK on a weekly basis involving thugs associated with various UK clubs in a peurile bid to sanitize the English game, but who then hop on every non-story relating to the LoI and thuggish behaviour in a seriously sensationalist manner. It sickens me.

In the incident you have highlighted, which may I remind you is not the first time that single incident has been highlighted on this forum, no-one was stabbed, no-one was hospitalised, no-one died. It was twenty or so youths engaged in nothing more than the equivalent of the 'hold-me-back-or-I'll-kill-him' idiocy that goes on in schoolyards on a global scale.

This incident and the incidents that saw fans stabbed in Rome on numerous occasions, incidents that see people hospitalised on a nearly weekly basis in the UK alone, are NOTHING alike.

Once again, just in case anyone missed it, I am NOT denying that there is a bubbling problem within Irish soccer, there IS, but the ordinary decent fans are doing our damndest to stamp it out. I myself have confronted idiots engaged in unacceptable behaviour around this country.

Trizo

well obviously you cant count 20 my hat !

no i haven't missed any thread but yet again there is this attitude that its always them and look at them they are so terrible and they have problems like you said there are problems with this everywhere. And btw don’t get all riled up when a simple fact is pointed out to you Loi supporters always do that when any minute criticism is pointed out to you....

yes there is problems is England always has been prob will be for along time to come (most of which is not publicised) but if you look at most of the countries on the continent there are serious problems Spain, France , Italy , Greece etc.... all of them have supporter elements that cause trouble.

please do also point out where i have said

"but to suggest that it is anywhere near the scale as we have seen, and continue to see, as the violence carried out by English thugs"


because obviously your just not bothering to read my post instead insult every point made ! :rolleyes: blinkered much ?

Savman

Very few of the English still behave like cavemen. I was at Villa V Everton last week and outside the ground there was 50 or so what could only be described as scouse chavs bundled up in a group chanting and inciting the home fans. The cops were over in seconds and without fear they were in amongst them.

After the game there was a mouthy Everton fan on the bus to Birmingham City, there was nearly a fookin riot on the bus when 6-7 hardcore villa heads went for him. The point is, there are always buses arranged for away fans so if you are hitching a ride with the home fans be sure to cover up your colours and keep your big mouth shut.

It seems the Engurlish cops know how to handle this type of thing, probably because of all their past incidents. No matter what I hear about Roma or Sevilla, I cannot say I honestly believe thje English fans were responsible. With all top teams, away tickets are only offered to Season Ticket Holders and although these are the hardcores they dont go around starting fights with everyone.

I think there is a recurring anti-english sentiment on this board which seems to have its foundations in a few people resenting the majority who support English teams. To call it "the english disease" is nothing short of racist.

Mr. Presentable

Trizo wrote:

one guy being beaten 10 or so times when he is on the ground is disgusting he was trying to crawl away FFS and the riot policeman was dragging him back to beat him some more that’s a F**ing disgrace ..........there were people going over asking for medical help and getting a baton in the face and yet the likes of nipplenuts thinks that’s just and an English disease!! get a grip...

This is disgusting to me also! But you are blind to what the problem is. For example, Bayern played Milan mid week also, was there trouble there caused by the Italian police?

on the matter of the "English disease", please understand that this is not a racism, it is used in reference to what the hooligan problem was known as in the 1980's. A reminder of what things were like 20 years ago, and a warning that it may be this way again.

Finally, Trizo, if you read and think about the thread you will find it is not about the Roma v Man Utd game - that was just one part of the story. Gripped it yet?

Mr. Presentable

Savman wrote:

With all top teams, away tickets are only offered to Season Ticket Holders and although these are the hardcores they dont go around starting fights with everyone.

I am open to correction on this, but weren't many of the problems in France due to ticketless MU fans at the stadium?

_blank_

Trizo wrote:

because obviously your just not bothering to read my post instead insult every point made ! :rolleyes: blinkered much ?

If you bothered to even look for more than the continually re-used example of problems within Irish football I might give some form of credence to your arguments, but you took the lazy option. As most people do when their beloved SuperPremierShip club is called into question by fan of the Irish game (see I can make sweeping generalisations aswell as you).

And bravo on the use of the roll eyes, again, it really makes your posts valid.

Trizo

nipplenuts wrote:

Finally, Trizo, if you read and think about the thread you will find it is not about the Roma v Man Utd game - that was just one part of the story. Gripped it yet?

so would you have even bothered to post this thread if the two incidents in mid week hadn't happened , i think not

Savman

nipplenuts wrote:

I am open to correction on this, but weren't many of the problems in France due to ticketless MU fans at the stadium?

I don't know. Obviously those of us who weren't there are relying on media reports to gather any kind of informed opinion. All I'm saying is any game I've been to in England has been well organised and well policed. If the home team can't take a bit of slagging, f*** them.

I had to sit in Villa Park listening to a coupla thousand Chelski fans singing "stand up for the champions" - I didn't like it but they have the bragging rights. Its a part of the game, noone need get a baton over the head for it.