Return of the English disease?

Trizo

Savman wrote:

Very few of the English still behave like cavemen. I was at Villa V Everton last week and outside the ground there was 50 or so what could only be described as scouse chavs bundled up in a group chanting and inciting the home fans. The cops were over in seconds and without fear they were in amongst them.

After the game there was a mouthy Everton fan on the bus to Birmingham City, there was nearly a fookin riot on the bus when 6-7 hardcore villa heads went for him. The point is, there are always buses arranged for away fans so if you are hitching a ride with the home fans be sure to cover up your colours and keep your big mouth shut.

It seems the Engurlish cops know how to handle this type of thing, probably because of all their past incidents. No matter what I hear about Roma or Sevilla, I cannot say I honestly believe thje English fans were responsible. With all top teams, away tickets are only offered to Season Ticket Holders and although these are the hardcores they dont go around starting fights with everyone.

I think there is a recurring anti-english sentiment on this board which seems to have its foundations in a few people resenting the majority who support English teams. To call it "the english disease" is nothing short of racist.

couldn't agree more with this

Trizo

seansouth wrote:

If you bothered to even look for more than the continually re-used example of problems within Irish football I might give some form of credence to your arguments, but you took the lazy option. As most people do when their beloved SuperPremierShip club is called into question by fan of the Irish game (see I can make sweeping generalisations aswell as you).

And bravo on the use of the roll eyes, again, it really makes your posts valid.

I am actually a supporter of all levels of the Irish game , i also support a PL team and have in the past considered myself a fan of many other European teams AS Roma one of them i can however see the problems at all levels of the game in all countries and acknowledge them rather than fight their existence

Trizo

Savman wrote:

I don't know. Obviously those of us who weren't there are relying on media reports to gather any kind of informed opinion. All I'm saying is any game I've been to in England has been well organised and well policed. If the home team can't take a bit of slagging, f*** them.

I had to sit in Villa Park listening to a coupla thousand Chelski fans singing "stand up for the champions" - I didn't like it but they have the bragging rights. Its a part of the game, noone need get a baton over the head for it.

yeah the games in England are very well controlled the fans are kept separate , if you don’t have a ticket you don’t get in you cant be a supporter of the other team in the wrong section(they check for shirts) and there is police and Stewarts everywhere checking bags.

i have never witnessed any trouble (in and around the stadium) for some big games the police had mounted patrols and spotter stations all around. course i would'nt want to wander too far off or not know where im going

gimmick

Savman wrote:

To call it "the english disease" is nothing short of racist.

Correct me if Im wrong, but was this term coined by the british media in the 80s?

Savman

gimmick wrote:

Correct me if Im wrong, but was this term coined by the british media in the 80s?

You tell me old timer

mike65

gimmick wrote:

This isnt a troll here, but why is it every time an English club are away, there is trouble? And its never their fault?

FFS, watching the various news bulletins last night and the poor man U fans were being interviewed about how they were caught up by the polices over zealous actions. My question is - why the christ were they rushing towards the persepex galss in the first place. If they didnt want trouble they would have ignored the Romas fans taunts. Simple as that. And dont give me any of this heat of the moment poppycock.

I dunno how many matches English clubs have played abroad this season, 20-30? But amazingly nearly all have passed off without incident. The Italians are famously bad at policing large scale events - Genoa G7 meeting anyone?

The Roma behaviour was I suspect as much out of self-preservation as anything. The police have to live with the Ultras week in/week out, the Mancs were passing though and so easy to hammer.

As I said above the local plod (and the politicans) who contol them would do well to see how its done in England.

Mike.

jank

Another thing..

Why are high profile matchs like United vs Liverpool and Arsenal vs Spurs always played mid afternoon....

arbeitsscheuer

jank wrote:

Another thing..

Why are high profile matchs like United vs Liverpool and Arsenal vs Spurs always played mid afternoon....

Er... Well they aren't, for starters.

Strange boy.

Savman

jank wrote:

Another thing..

Why are high profile matchs like United vs Liverpool and Arsenal vs Spurs always played mid afternoon....

That's usually the Police enforcing that, to prevent supporters drinking all day and getting out of control.
In cities like Manchester, both City and United have to reach agreements with the local police so that, where possible, both teams are not at home on the same day at the same time because of the massive resources it uses up, not to mention traffic and public transport gridlock. All these things are taken into consideration before the Premier League fixtures are released in July.

Guy:Incognito

jank wrote:

Another thing..

Why are high profile matchs like United vs Liverpool and Arsenal vs Spurs always played mid afternoon....

Well there are 4 times over a weekend that games can be played , around 1, at 3 and just after 5 on saturdays and then on sunday afternoons. Sky cant show games at 3 on a Saturady so big games will always be at one of the other times. The only time games are at mid afternoon is on a sunday.


In fact when was the last time aLiverpool - Utd game wasnt either early Saturday or else Sunday afternoon? I cant remember anyway.

arbeitsscheuer

It's not true anyway guys, Manchester United have played Liverpool and Arsenal have played Spurs etc with so many evening kickoffs down the years. It's just a wrong presupposition, fullstop.

Even last season at Old Trafford, when Rio popped up to head the winner, that had been an evening kick off. Likewise I'm pretty sure that a few years ago Arsenal drew 1-1 with Spurs at the Lane after an evening kick-off. It's a non-argument.

EDIT: In addition, Rio Ferdinand's return from that 8-month ban (I think it was) also came against Liverpool, on the 20th of September 2004... In a Monday Night Football, 7.45pm kickoff. Can't remember the scoreline, but Man U won. Silvestre scored.

Anyway, that's just one example of an evening kickoff between big rivals...

Savman

Obviously there are plenty of kick off times dictated by Sky as well as teams schedule in Europe etc.
All I'm saying is when you see an "odd" kick off time it's usually to do with many off-field contributing factors. This does not just apply to the Top 4 teams but area where it could cause problems for the city itself.

It takes a lot of troops on the ground to police 40,000 football fans so clubs & the Premier League have to work closely with the English coppers.

Simple answer: Sky TV & Police

redspider

The term English Disease is I think what the english press think that 'foreigners' call it. Hooliganism pre-dates organised football, that's for sure!

Here is one reference:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/article38673.ece

The Independent wrote:

Another sorry outbreak of the English disease
Published: 17 June 2004

Of all England's exports to Europe, few have been quite so unwelcome as football hooliganism. And it seems that the old English disease has broken out on the Continent once again, despite assiduous efforts by the Government and the Football Association to stop trouble-makers travelling to the European Championships in Portugal. In the small hours of Tuesday and Wednesday morning, in a scene reminiscent of past competitions, Portuguese police found themselves fighting it out with drunken English football fans in the town of Albufeira, in the Algarve region. More than 40 Britons have been arrested, and there are fears the England team could be ejected from the championships if the violence continues.

But it is important to keep a couple of things in mind when dealing with the phenomenon of English football hooliganism. First of all, these trouble-makers are by no means representative of all England fans. Some 40,000 have travelled to Portugal to enjoy the championships and most have behaved impeccably. Only a few hundred were actually involved in skirmishes with the police. What we are dealing with is a small number of violent individuals who, like parasites, hide in larger groups of supporters.

Second, it is questionable to what extent such hooligans are actually football fans at all. This week's trouble took place 300km from where the England team has been playing. The Algarve has been popular with English holiday-makers for decades. The drama of England's match against France on Sunday may have intensified the atmosphere, but what we have really seen this week is drunken louts on a holiday rampage. It is as mundane as that.

Thankfully, Uefa, who run the championships, seem to accept this and do not intend to punish the England team itself, although that could change if violence breaks out at an England match, or around a stadium where they are playing. For the sake of real England fans out in Portugal, and the Algarve locals who have had to tolerate this uncivilised behaviour, let's hope we have seen the last of this thuggery so we can get back to enjoying the football again.

therecklessone

I´m not gonna quote anyone or rebut anyone or any of that bollox.

I´m in Sevilla right noe.. I´m sore after I got a pasting last night, totally undeserved but thats how the Spanish policew respond. The majority of you have no idea how Englsaig fans are pigeon holed abroad, kudos to KjadCL and others know the score.

redspider

hoo·li·gan
Pronunciation (hoo-li-guhn)
–noun
1. a ruffian or hoodlum.
–adjective
2. of or like hooligans.

(Origin: 1895–1900; perh. after the Irish surname Hooligan, but corroborating evidence is lacking)

hooligan
1890s, of unknown origin, first found in British newspaper police-court reports in the summer of 1898, almost certainly from the surname Houlihan, supposedly from a lively family of that name in London (who figured in music hall songs of the decade). Internationalized 20c. in communist rhetoric as Rus. khuligan, opprobrium for "scofflaws, political dissenters, etc."


----

So was Hooligan a typo for Hoolihan?
which itself was a mis-spelling for Houlihan ....

The Irish have a lot to answer for ....... ;-)

redspider

purple'n'gold

This should read, the return of the Italian disease, cowardice.

county

therecklessone wrote:

I´m not gonna quote anyone or rebut anyone or any of that bollox.

I´m in Sevilla right noe.. I´m sore after I got a pasting last night, totally undeserved but thats how the Spanish policew respond. The majority of you have no idea how Englsaig fans are pigeon holed abroad, kudos to KjadCL and others know the score.

hope you`re ok,when your back i`m sure you will give us a better picture on the events the other night

Vokes

Good to hear you're safe & sound, therecklessone.

Just seen the sevilla vids on bbc news there, crazy stuff.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

mike65

Good to hear you're safe & sound, therecklessone.

Ditto that.

One thought, if I were a travlling fan I'd be tooled up.....with a camera! If every fan had a camera with movie mode or a posh phone I suspect you could amass enough footage to show how the local plod behave.

Mike.

Thanx 4 The Fish

therecklessone wrote:

I´m not gonna quote anyone or rebut anyone or any of that bollox.

I´m in Sevilla right noe.. I´m sore after I got a pasting last night, totally undeserved but thats how the Spanish policew respond. The majority of you have no idea how Englsaig fans are pigeon holed abroad, kudos to KjadCL and others know the score.

What the hell are you on about Reckless ? I have been in London when there are derbies played and have seen first hand the damage that English fans do to one another. I have witnessed groups of oppo fans beating crap outta each other and seen people sitting bleeding on the streets waiting for the crap to subside so that they can get to A & E. The FACT that it is not mentioned on the news does not mean that it does not happen, just that the press over here do not wish to sensationalise it any more. Now that there is a greater police presence at games in England (which the fans pay for through ticket prices) and that they maintain tight control within about half a mile of the ground does not mean that once the thugs who do want to spoil the game are out of sight of the police that they do not revert to thier loutish ways.

I know people who do not let their children out when Fulham are at home, and that make sure their kids are back before full time when WHL hosts a game. I have spoken to them on occasion about some of the things that they have seen through the years, if I were to put some of the stuff that they have seen up here there would be a few more eyes opened about the state of the support (or not, whatever the case may be) of some clubs in England.

RasTa

Yeah the Spurs fans are blameless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zeq9ijrGxdg

LostinBlanch

This was planned since March with texts going out to ultras of Legia Warsaw, Hadjuk Split, Den Haag, Ferencvaros, Marseilles and Lens among others.

Bob Graham, who is making a documentary on football hooliganism in eastern Europe, says the violence in Rome was premeditated in a highly organised manner

In March, less than two hours after the Champions League draw had been made, the texts began pinging throughout Europe.

The first message, written in Polish, read: "Hey, do you want to come to the ambush and fight?"

It was sent by one of Roma's Ultras to a neo-Nazi member of Legia Warsaw's extremist gang who organise football hooliganism in Poland. The reply was immediate: "My friend, it is good you need us. We will be honoured to be there to stand with you.Messages were also sent to Croatia, to the Torcida Split gang who follow Hajduk Split; to Den Haag in Holland; Ferencvaros in Turkey; Real Madrid's Ultras Sur; to the Curva Massilia hooligans of Olympique Marseille; and the Red Tigers of Lens.

The invitation to the French fans was an afterthought; they have no history of hooliganism, but might want to be part of the fight after clashes at their stadium during Manchester United's match against Lille last month.

Fans in Austria, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia and Slovakia were also invited. In each of the countries there are known groups of Ultras—supporters who wallow in violent racism which has occasionally led to murder.

"This will be a meeting of the friendships across Europe," said the Legia Warsaw thug, whom I met while making a TV documentary on football hooliganism.

"Open borders mean we can travel without problems and take part in matters we share together, like beating the Manchester fans. Maybe they have a bigger and better football team. We are the best hools and the best fighters. We are top of our league."

The series of messages — the first of more than a dozen sent between groups of organised hooligans — was the first inkling that Wednesday's quarter-final in Rome would become a target for thugs.

Several messages were also sent to fans in Liverpool, Burnley and Southampton to try to entice them to the fight.

Inevitably, some found their way to Old Trafford where, in the run-up to the match, concern mounted among United's security staff. It led to the ill-fated warning to fans of the potential for trouble. In the perverse, twilight world of hooliganism, the allegiances between thugs who follow top football clubs in each country are known as 'friendships'.

In a series of text messages, arrangements were made to meet before the game and to coordinate ambushing United fans in the side-streets and alleyways leading to Rome's Olympic Stadium where Fascist symbols, Nazi crosses and Celtic crosses are often spotted daubed on walls.

To fans from Legia Warsaw and Pogon Szczecin, there had been a specific request from Rome: "Bring your blades!"

The small band of no more than 20 fans, who arrived in Rome on Tuesday, carry knives and axes as their "equipment".

Just before setting off by road from Warsaw, the Polish gang leader smiled: "We will stay in Rome until the Pope makes his Easter message. We are good Polish Catholics and it is a good reason to be in Rome."

Although football hooliganism is rightly policed in Britain, Germany and Holland — and, to a lesser extent, Spain — elsewhere in Europe the authorities turn a blind eye.

Over the past winter the number of violent incidents has increased. Only last week UEFA president Michel Platini wrote to all 53 European soccer associations, warning that violence on and off the field was 'poisoning' football.

He met government and police experts from around the Continent to ask for help.

FIFA president Sepp Blatter said: "We have come to the crossroads of football. Our football is ill and we must find medicine to give to our sport."

Also, Italian footage of Roma charging the barrier first and then United fans respond then the police come charging in.

therecklessone

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

What the hell are you on about Reckless ?

When have I ever denied that trouble occurs at games in England? I've reported on it on this very forum FFS. We were all tarred with the one brush on Thursday night, and treated as baton fodder for hyped up riot police. They behaved like animals, and a small number of Spurs responded.

Sevilla back Spurs claim

The sympathy for Tottenham fans' rough treatment at the hands of Spanish riot police became almost uniform yesterday, as Sevilla club officials and supporters joined to criticise the ferocity of the authorities' response during Thursday night's Uefa Cup quarter-final.

Certainly, the contrast between the mayhem at Sevilla's stadium and the calm of the city centre could not have been more marked as Tottenham's bewildered support dispersed.

In a damning verdict on the local police, Sevilla admitted after their 2-1 first-leg victory that they were "perplexed" at the "excessive force" used. A club spokesman said: "We think this small incident could have been handled and peace restored without the use of police batons. We are investigating the reason for the police action."

Tottenham's club secretary, John Alexander, added: "Our supporters have been on four trips into Europe before this and have behaved impeccably, so something was clearly different in the way they were treated last night to suffer this sort of response."

RasTa wrote:

Yeah the Spurs fans are blameless

Easy to post a video of fans fighting police, how about you search for footage of the fan in a wheelchair who was hit by riot police? Or my mate's girlfriend who returned to Dublin with a broken wrist? Or the man they met in A&E who had his 10 year old daughter being seen to after she was hit as they tried to escape the carnage?

I'd a chat with a Sevilla fan yesterday about the events of Thursday night. he couldn't believe what had happened, and said that local media were as perplexed as we were with how this all developed.

I spent most of Thursday with other Spurs fans having a few beers in a square near the main train station. Seville holds a series of parades during Holy Week, with Thursday being the most important, so the city authorities set up a fan zone with bars/food/entertainment away from the city centre. Everything was good natured, until about 6 when mounted police in full riot gear entered the square and herded us into a corner to be frog marched to the ground (almost 3 hours before kick off) which was a 10 minute walk away. We managed to slip away and found a small bar where a number of Spurs and Seville fans were enjoying a few drinks and a sing song, myself and three mates joined 5 of their fans on the way up to the ground just after 8.

When we arrived there was no indication of where we supposed to be sitting, no signposts and no stewards to help us out. Chaos ensued, with most people simply sitting in any empty seat they could find. I can't stress this enough, it really was madness. I ended up standing in an aisle with about 30 other fans in the upper tier, and proceeded to watch the game.

Trouble flared after they were awarded the peno. I believe the first clash was in the lower tier, but soon enough the 8 robocops off to my right hand side were given orders to clear the aisle I was in. They did this by baton charging anyone in their way, indiscriminately hitting a number of women. I was struck a number of times on the arse and lower back, and was pushed down the stairs into the concourse with one of Seville's finest following me down swinging as he did. He finally let up when I was lying at the bottom of the stairs with my arms up trying to fend off his blows.

I was one of the lucky ones, I was just bruised and a little dazed. Others fared worse, including a number of Tottenham stewards and the aforementioned women, children and disabled supporters.

The trouble continued during the halftime break, with a mini battle taking place between riot police and about 30 of our lot in the concourse. I tried to go back up to the upper tier to get away only to be threatened with another beating. When I finally found a police officer who didn't want to kick my head in I asked him who was in charge of the sorry mess, and who I should complain to (stupid of me, I should have stayed out of their way but I was seriously pissed off). He answered by laughing at me, then told me he didn't know what station he worked in. Finally he raised his baton, and I got the message.

I witnessed NO fan/fan violence during the night, in fact I've heard of Seville fans dragging Spurs fans into their stand to escape the beatings. The one confrontation I did witness was when one of ours approached one of theirs in the toilet at half time (how the Seville fan ended up in with us I don't know) but the Spurs fan got a hail of abuse of his own who were happy to defend the Seville fan. Both sets of fans got on well during the day, and a number apologised to me as I walked away from the ground after the game. They are a credit to their club.

Once the robocops left the seated area the trouble stopped. We weren't even kept in at full time, and were free to leave the stadium. I have heard reports of fans who were waiting for the team to emerge after the game being targeted by police, and players and officials from Tottenham intervening to save one from a beating.

LostinBlanch

mike65 wrote:

Ditto that.

One thought, if I were a travlling fan I'd be tooled up.....with a camera! If every fan had a camera with movie mode or a posh phone I suspect you could amass enough footage to show how the local plod behave.

Mike.

One United fan was doing that and the police nearly broke her wrist to stop her filming.

Zebra3

ziggy67 wrote:

It's all Johnny Foreigners fault.

That's why it's called the English Disease.

Had to laugh at some of the crap posted in this thread. Someone mentioned the serious hooligan problem in Spain!!!

Spain is one of the safest countries in Europe to go and watch football. It's a real family affair and the huge distances involved in travelling means there is very rarely any significant away support. Sure a couple of years ago, Barça only brought 150 when they played away to Espanyol. It's just not in their fan culture.

I wonder how often do some people on this forum actually go around watching games in Europe given the crap posted here. If you go to watch your team play in Italy (like it or not), you are taking serious chances with both the home fans and the police. If you're idiotic enough to charge the home fans, well what the fck do you expect? :rolleyes: Despite all the propaganda on Sky, going to a football match isn't all about happy kids, painted faces, and jester hats.

Would you walk down the Shankill with a tricolour and a Celtic jersey shouting "Up the 'RA" and then complain if someone battered you? No, you wouldn't.

It's called common sense. Sadly, something that's not very common.

therecklessone

LostinBlanch wrote:

This was planned since March with texts going out to ultras of Legia Warsaw, Hadjuk Split, Den Haag, Ferencvaros, Marseilles and Lens among others.

Also, Italian footage of Roma charging the barrier first and then United fans respond then the police come charging in.

Read that on way home today, was just about to post.

Also, saw in todays Indo that a senior police officer from the UK who went to Seville (as happens with all English sides in Europe) in an official capacity condemned the police behaviour.

I'm not going to pretend that Spurs fans are 100% angels, recent trouble at Chelsea and Cardiff attests to that. Our "firm" is one of the most active in the PL. However, a proportionate policing response which is measured and aimed at removing trouble makers achieves far more than indiscriminate beatings.

As Mike said earlier in the thread, the continentals could do with a trip to England to see how games should be policed.

therecklessone

Zebra3 wrote:

Spain is one of the safest countries in Europe to go and watch football.

Yeah, they prefer to throw pigs heads and make monkey noises at black players...:rolleyes:

I had a rather illuminating conversation with the landlord of an Irish bar on Friday that is half way between Seville and Betis' stadiums. He told me after his pub was smashed up during a derby earlier in the season he decided not to bother showing the most recent meeting of the two sides for fear of it happening again.

therecklessone

LostinBlanch wrote:

One United fan was doing that and the police nearly broke her wrist to stop her filming.

Same happened a number of ours on Thursday night.

therecklessone

Sorry for multiple posting, but this was posted over on the Spurs forum and I'm fairly certain its the same source as was in the Indo today:

Meanwhile, Haringey police chief Simon O'Brien, at the match as an observer, also questioned the police's approach.

Chief Superintendent O'Brien said: "I was able to witness first hand the events in Seville.

"The Spurs fans' behaviour was excellent throughout the day and the Spurs stewards did what I can only describe as a remarkable and commendable job at the match. I shall be assisting fully with the investigation.

"What I would say now is that it was quite clear that there was a different level of police intervention to that which we employ in the UK and the introduction of the police during the match in one particular section of the crowd undoubtedly contributed to the disturbances that we saw."

O'Brien's comments have been endorsed by Andy Smith, the Football Association's security advisor who was also present at the match.


Tottenham fan and Sky Sports presenter Clare Tomlinson also attended the match as a supporter.

She condemned the behaviour of the police, saying: "We were watching the game but you couldn't do that because they kept running down the aisles and hitting out at the supporters.

"Then they say the supporters are reacting. When you're watching girls being hit, when you're watching disabled fans being attacked, people aren't just going to stand back and say 'well, that's okay'.

"Clearly, they're going to try and make their point known.

"I had people crying on my shoulder asking me to help them. All you could do was cushion the blows.

"When you tried to speak these people, the police, they just pushed you away."

She added on Sky Sports News: "At half-time, we all got out of the stand - some of the people I was with - we all stood right at the back.

"There were five girls there with two lads and the police came at us there. We were clearly trying to get out of the way of the trouble and they threw us down some stairs and the boys got hit.

"If fans are going to that extent of trying to keep away from it then really the police have got some questions to answer."

Zebra3

therecklessone wrote:

Yeah, they prefer to throw pigs heads and make monkey noises at black players...:rolleyes:

I had a rather illuminating conversation with the landlord of an Irish bar on Friday that is half way between Seville and Betis' stadiums. He told me after his pub was smashed up during a derby earlier in the season he decided not to bother showing the most recent meeting of the two sides for fear of it happening again.

While it's horrible, I'd much rather sit in a stadium with idiots making monkey noises than have that feeling that I'm gonna be attacked. I felt a lot safer listening to that sort of racist sht in Belfast and Bucharest than I have been at grounds in Italy.

No doubt there are incidents like the one you heard about in Seville, but Spain is still one of the safest countries in Europe to watch football.

Btw, good to see you're well enough to post here.

Rule #1 while watching football on the continent: DON'T EVER VIDEO OR TAKE PHOTOS OF THE POLICE. Seriously people, don't do it!!!!

LostinBlanch

Reckless,

God only knows whats going to happen in Athens for the final, whoever gets there. I can't imagine the Greek police are up to much with crowd control, I could be doing them a disservice but I think that Mediteranean police forces generally aren't arsed about preventative measures, preferring to beat the sh*t out of anyone within arms reach.

therecklessone

Just to prove the whole day wasn't a disaster, here's a few pics my mate took of our day, posted on the boardsspurs forum.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53031911#post53031911

bohsman

Dont film Police as already mentioned, their faces are even blacked out on Spanish TV in news reports etc.

Seville is a definite exception to the safe Spanish football culture, away fans were banned from both stadiums on derby days for a number of years after a knife was thrown from the second tier hitting a player

Bateman

bohsman wrote:

Dont film Police as already mentioned, their faces are even blacked out on Spanish TV in news reports etc.

Seville is a definite exception to the safe Spanish football culture, away fans were banned from both stadiums on derby days for a number of years after a knife was thrown from the second tier hitting a player

I wouldn't say it's an exception. Madrid derbies can be fairly heated affairs. Sevilla derby is definitely the country's biggest though.

Bateman

http://mediacenter.corriere.it/MediaCenter/action/player?uuid=7e20c102-e436-11db-8b30-0003ba99c53b

6 mins 51 secs, and United not exactly on the backfoot for most of it. Fair play to anyone who spots any women or kids too.

Thanx 4 The Fish

I think you forgot to put on your red glasses, is completely different viewing Bate

therecklessone

Bateman wrote:

http://mediacenter.corriere.it/MediaCenter/action/player?uuid=7e20c102-e436-11db-8b30-0003ba99c53b

6 mins 51 secs, and United not exactly on the backfoot for most of it. Fair play to anyone who spots any women or kids too.

Out of sight to camera right: Italian police baton charging Roma fans, who were as culpable for events within the stadium...oh wait...

James Richardson in Daily Mail wrote:

The police are not in control of most Italian stadia, and piling into the visitors is one of their only options if trouble occurs. On Wednesday the police were stationed only on United’s side of the crowd partitions while stewards ‘controlled’ Roma’s curva, the curved part of a stand where the club’s hard-core support congregate.

Why?

It wasn’t because the police are partisan, and certainly not because Roma fans are well-behaved. Far from it. The fact is police are not allowed into the curva by Roma’s own supporters. The lay-out of these ends, with thousands of hard-core fans packed on broad, ranging terraces accessible only from a few narrow entrances, means the police will not enter for fear of triggering bigger trouble which they can’t handle.

One veteran officer said after the death of a carabiniere in Sicily in February: "We can’t set foot in the curvas. It would be regarded as an act of war."

Questions for those who blame fans of English teams:

1. Would you describe the policing of Wednesday and Thursday night's games in Italy and Spain as effective, proportionate and justified?

2. Heave-handed policing on both nights, coupled with attacks on innocent ManYoo fans in the streets of Rome inflamed both nights' events and could be described as provocation, agree?

3. In the case of ManYoo, where is your criticism of Rome's finest who failed to protect ManYoo fans on the approaches to the Olympic Stadium, innocent and troublemakers alike?

4. Do you accept that especially in Italy, foreign hooligans see the visit of English fans as a chance to test their mettle against the (preceived) best, and that English fans will always be targets abroad? Given that, why is it that continental policing still concentrates on the visitors while leaving their own to act with impunity?

therecklessone

English disease? You're having a laugh...

Fan's death prompts total sport ban

GREECE has suspended all team sport for two weeks after a fan died in a pitched battle outside a volleyball stadium on Thursday.

The 25-year-old fan was killed and five others injured in an arranged clash between 300 hooligans of Greece arch-rivals *******kos Pireaus and Panathinaikos Athens, ahead of a women's volleyball match, a sport which rarely draws crowds.

Violence mars first day of Open

The first day of the Australian Open has been marred by crowd violence, with more than 150 supporters ejected from Melbourne Park for racially fuelled fights.

Just before 1pm, about 40 police were forced to step in to physically eject spectators brawling in the Garden Square common area.

Eyewitnesses reported bottles being thrown and flares lit as rival fans punched and kicked each other and yelled abuse.

One man was reportedly hit with a stick, and several were bleeding as they left Melbourne Park.

Meanwhile, Martin O'Neill:

We had an incident in 2003 when Celtic went to Celta Vigo and there were a number of fans just heading into an area and because they weren't moving along quickly enough they were baton-charged by the police. There wasn't a Celta Vigo fan in sight. The Celtic chairman's son, who would certainly never be described as anything other than a law-abiding citizen, was hit over the head. It was crazy - an unprovoked attack.

Didn't Celtic fans win a FIFA award for their exemplary behaviour? I suppose they really should learn to move a little quicker when instructed by some wanker with a robocop fetish...:rolleyes:

Dr Clifford Stott, Senior lecturer in social psychology, University of Liverpool, and expert in crowd control:

I was in Rome to do crowd observations because we provide a research platform to advise police forces on how to adapt strategies to minimise disorder. It was very easy to predict disorder would happen in an old ground with a lack of in-stadium regulation and one set of fans left free to provoke rival fans. A style of policing that relies on indiscriminate baton-charging produces the kind of conditions necessary for riots to occur.

BKtje

Didn't see the fans doing a whole lot wrong in that video. They got charged a couple times and one guy was getting smacked for trying to talk to the police.

Zebra3

therecklessone wrote:

Do you accept that especially in Italy, foreign hooligans see the visit of English fans as a chance to test their mettle against the....

The foreign hooligans in Italy? The Man United thugs? They saw their own visit as a chance to test themselves aginst...themselves? You've really confused me.

therecklessone wrote:

English disease? You're having a laugh...

That's a phrase coined and continously used by the English media. Many countries have long standing hooligan problems in their domestic game, the English were the first to export it. That's why the phrase was coined. The first major incident of English fans causing trouble abroard, I believe, was Spurs in Rotterdam in the early 70s.

LostinBlanch

Zebra3 wrote:

The foreign hooligans in Italy? The Man United thugs? They saw their own visit as a chance to test themselves aginst...themselves? You've really confused me.

I'm not in the habit of quoting myself, but seeing as you're deliberately misreading therecklesones comment about foreign hooligans I'll repeat myself so even you should be able to understand.

LostinBlanch wrote:

This was planned since March with texts going out to ultras of Legia Warsaw, Hadjuk Split, Den Haag, Ferencvaros, Marseilles and Lens among others.

There, that should clear up your "confusion" :rolleyes:

Bateman

therecklessone, anyone who knows their football knows that the phrase "the English disease" holds no currency on European nights. It certainly does, however, have relevance for World Cups and European Championships in neutral venues, where unless the home fans are putting it up to the English, they will usually run amok with impunity. I'm thinking here of incidents in the likes of Luxembourg, Belgium, Switzerland, etc, where looting etc was commonplace and resistance from home fans was non-existent. The media in these countries understandably saw this as an English problem, as this just didn't happen with fans from other countries at the time.

The fans have too much power in Italy. Fans in England, however, have NO power. I don't think anyone condones hoardes of Roma attacking innocent United fans in the city before the game. United lads charging against a plexiglass screen (why oh why? :rolleyes: ), however, is a different issue. There are less away fans, so the police will attempt to clear them; common sense says this is the quickest solution to the problem.

Whether it's right or wrong that the police don't enter the curvas (and remember the visiting United fas were housed at the corner of Lazio's curva nord last week; Roma's curva sud is the opposite end of the ground) could be granted a different thread. The fact is that Italian fans are victims of this week in and week out. Tim Parks' book outlines the typical experience of travelling away in Italy; away fans from opposing Italian clubs experience a similar fate to visiting English fans; possibly a worse fate; the Italians are clubbed and then arrested, the English are simply clubbed (and most will prefer a slap than a pair of handcuffs). Ask your Spurs [firm] mates about their experiences of the different police forces around England; I'm sure there will be differing stories, about how Met aren't too bad, compared for example to West Midlands. Brutality outside the ground, brutality inside the ground, two sides of the same coin.

Bateman

LostinBlanch wrote:

I'm not in the habit of quoting myself, but seeing as you're deliberately misreading therecklesones comment about foreign hooligans I'll repeat myself so even you should be able to understand.
There, that should clear up your "confusion" :rolleyes:

So we can pick the media articles we're happy with, and rubbishing those that we've no use for? I've read the article about the foreign hooligans, and I wouldn't have any reason to believe it suited my argument, likewise if it didn't suit my argument I'd have no reason to disbelieve it.

therecklessone

Bateman wrote:

United lads charging against a plexiglass screen (why oh why? :rolleyes: ), however, is a different issue. There are less away fans, so the police will attempt to clear them; common sense says this is the quickest solution to the problem.

Common sense says proactive policing not reactive policing is the most effective solution. A measured response to minor incidents means there is less chance of major incidents occurring. Its that simple.

The complete lack of fan on fan confrontation on Thursday night in Seville provides even more reason to believe the Spanish police behaviour was unwarranted.

Bateman

therecklessone wrote:

Common sense says proactive policing not reactive policing is the most effective solution..

There were two lines of tape (not sure if you can see this on the videos or not) between the United fans and the plexiglass. Once you encroach past even one of these, you are fair game for the Italian police, and I would imagine most United fans knew what Italian police are like before last week.

United-Lille can be traced to ticketless fans creating a public order situation, United-Roma can be traced to fans charging at a glass screen. Can't say I know what started the trouble in Sevilla apart from naked police aggression. But I've been in that away section of the RSP before and it's fairly roomy and didn't seem to be full, you can even see that there is enough space between the rows of seats for anyone who wants to walk away to do so. Not many lads seem to have wanted to have walked away though, they're happy enough to keep having a go. 9 times out of ten if you have a go off the police you're going to lose. And I really don't think you can whinge when you do. Maybe the fact that the banter with the Sevilla fans was so good natured was a contributory factor to the trouble, rather than the trouble being in spite of it.

Guy:Incognito

therecklessone wrote:

Just to prove the whole day wasn't a disaster, here's a few pics my mate took of our day, posted on the boardsspurs forum.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53031911#post53031911

You look photoshopped into that first pic.

The 3rd one isnt much better, it looks like lots of seperate pics of people put together (not to mention where your right hand is dissappearing to:D) You have some sort of strange aura thing where you dont look like part of the backround. Odd.

On a seperate note, would the pl not be better off using those perspex barriers in english grounds rather than wasting 10 or so full rows of seats (from front to back) to seperate fans?

therecklessone

Bateman wrote:

Can't say I know what started the trouble in Sevilla apart from naked police aggression. But I've been in that away section of the RSP before and it's fairly roomy and didn't seem to be full, you can even see that there is enough space between the rows of seats for anyone who wants to walk away to do so. Not many lads seem to have wanted to have walked away though, they're happy enough to keep having a go. 9 times out of ten if you have a go off the police you're going to lose. And I really don't think you can whinge when you do.

I didn't choose confrontation, my experience is posted a few pages ago. The job of the police at a sports event is to maintain public order, not to create publc disorder.

I'm not proud of the actions of my fellow fans who chose to fight back Thursday night, but I understand why they did. Had a camera caught my demeanour shortly after I got my beating I'm sure someone would be calling me a yob, as I was pointing at the w*anker who assaulted me and screaming blue murder. We all respond in different ways to provocation of that sort, that being the case its high time UEFA insisted on continental policing of European games meeting acceptable standards.

Have a look at this picture of my mate's girlfriends wrist after she left the ground at half time, or this of her cast after she'd visited A&E. Now maybe you'll understand why my mate chose to confront the thugs who assaulted her, and got this and this for his troubles.

I'll quote this again for effect:

Dr Clifford Stott, Senior lecturer in social psychology, University of Liverpool, and expert in crowd control

I was in Rome to do crowd observations because we provide a research platform to advise police forces on how to adapt strategies to minimise disorder. It was very easy to predict disorder would happen in an old ground with a lack of in-stadium regulation and one set of fans left free to provoke rival fans. A style of policing that relies on indiscriminate baton-charging produces the kind of conditions necessary for riots to occur.

If Tottenham fans are so difficult to police on their travels, how did German police manage to deal with 9,000 who travelled to Leverkusen, spread among three cities (Cologne, Dusseldorf and Leverkusen) with a large number purchasing tickets in the home end as we only had an official allocation of 1,200. the only confrontation I am aware of that day was when Schalke fans arrived firmed up to continue a row from our pre-season trip to Dortmund, a confrontation that was contained by German police and did not escalate. Thats how to police a game...

LostinBlanch

Bateman wrote:

So we can pick the media articles we're happy with, and rubbishing those that we've no use for? I've read the article about the foreign hooligans, and I wouldn't have any reason to believe it suited my argument, likewise if it didn't suit my argument I'd have no reason to disbelieve it.

Bateman,

I was addressing Zebras misrepresentation of recklessones quote. Perhaps I was a bit harsh, maybe he hadn't read the whole thread and so actually was confused.

I suspect you haven't read the whole thread either, otherwise you may have seen me putting a link up on Saturday to that Italian footage showing Roma fans charging the plexiglass screens and a section of United fans reacting and then the police steaming in and hitting anyone within arms reach (post 74 in this thread). You put in the same link yesterday, I don't remember me rubbishing it, since I was the one that originally put up that link.

Fratton Fred

Bateman wrote:

therecklessone, anyone who knows their football knows that the phrase "the English disease" holds no currency on European nights. It certainly does, however, have relevance for World Cups and European Championships in neutral venues, where unless the home fans are putting it up to the English, they will usually run amok with impunity. I'm thinking here of incidents in the likes of Luxembourg, Belgium, Switzerland, etc, where looting etc was commonplace and resistance from home fans was non-existent. The media in these countries understandably saw this as an English problem, as this just didn't happen with fans from other countries at the time.

link please.